YLS v Hamilton, 4 years later Forum

[Cement]

Back when I was agonizing over this choice i read lots of posts and got a ton of good advice, but it would’ve been helpful to hear from someone who came out the other end.

Bottom line is I picked YLS and it was 100% the right decision, but for reasons I didn’t expect. Writing it up here in case this helps someone.

1. Grades. I came into law school with literally a 180 and 4.0, and guess what: I kind of suck at law school. Cant do a good issue spotter to save my life, which I discovered 1L. At YLS, this was not a problem: I went into black letter law classes chilled out, knowing I’m going for the eaaaasy P, and otherwise racked up a good number of freebie Hs in clinics and seminars. In the end I got a great job, partially on the strength of recommendations from particular professors I built relationships with. I know for a fact that I could not have gotten this job with a transcript full of Cs and B-s, which is what my Ps would translate into at Columbia.

2. Debt. I’m an older student so I maxed out my financial aid (no parent contribution). All told I have about 40k more debt than I would’ve had at Columbia, once you incorporate all the fees etc not covered by the Hamilton, and that strikes me as a very reasonable deal.

3. General opportunities. As mentioned above, I ended up in a great job that simply would not have been possible without having worked much, much harder for better grades at Columbia. I also got a very nice 1L summer job literally because a fancy professor sent one email, before I had any grades on my transcript whatsoever. I’m not saying this is fair or right, or even strictly impossible elsewhere, but in my particular case I feel like I benefitted a whole lot from the yls name.

Caveats: I am by no means in the running for SCOTUS or particularly fancy clerkships (though I am also pretty sure I could get a CoA one somewhere, if I tried). If you’re an ambitious person willing to work hard, you could get everything I got at YLS from Columbia (and you could milk more from yls than I did). The difference is I was able to do that while basically cruising through law school (before you hate me, I should add that the cruising was largely because I had way more difficult/pressing personal issues to take care of throughout all 3 years. Once again: don’t know how I would’ve managed those if i had to work any harder at school).

So: for the right person, eg in a position similar to mine, yls is a great choice and worth giving up a fancy scholarship for.

[QContinuum]

Welcome to TLS and thanks for your contribution.

Let me start by saying that in many cases, choosing YLS vs. the Hamilton (or Ruby or Vandy) is likely to be the right move. As you correctly note, law school grades are unpredictable, and no one should attend CCN banking on getting straight As merely because they got into YLS. (Throughout this post, to avoid needless clunkiness I will refrain from typing out "...or the numeric equivalent at Chicago" each time I refer to a letter grade at CCN.)

That said, in my view there are a number of points in your post that are inaccurate, or which could potentially be misleading. I think it's important to clarify these points. As follows:

• First and most importantly, no, Ps at YLS would not generally translate into "Cs and B-s" at CCN. Cs are off-curve bad grades at all of CCN, and are given out exceedingly rarely, for truly disastrous performances. B-s are off-curve at CC; they're on the curve at N, but even so, the typical YLS P is vastly more likely to translate into a B+/B even at NYU than a B-. You, Cement, apparently received a fair number of Hs at YLS, so I very much doubt your Ps were "bottom 10%" Ps or worse. Now, it's likely that an H/P YLSer (with the Hs in non-BLL classes) would be a generally A-/B+/B student at CCN. Would I prefer to be an H/P YLS student instead of an A-/B+/B student at CCN? Absolutely! No question. The H/P YLS student pretty much still has the whole array of legal job opps open to them (minus the most competitive clerkships and such), while the A-/B+/B CCN student is pretty much looking at a "generic" V50 and maybe a district clerkship in a non-coastal state if they're lucky. But, let's not pretend an H/P YLS student would be struggling with an off-the-charts awful "Cs and B-s" transcript at CCN.
• With "max aid" you were only paying $13k per year in tuition at YLS? That seems implausible. Current tuition is $64k and max aid I believe is currently ~$40k, so $72k in tuition over three years (which of course would prove to be significantly more since "max aid" requires loan financing). To be clear, I think it's often defensible to choose YLS over CCN at a $72k difference, but I just don't think it's realistic for students to expect a mere $40k differential, which would indeed make the decision a no-brainer.
• 1L summer jobs generally don't matter.

[Joachim2017]

Back when I was agonizing over this choice i read lots of posts and got a ton of good advice, but it would’ve been helpful to hear from someone who came out the other end.

Bottom line is I picked YLS and it was 100% the right decision, but for reasons I didn’t expect. Writing it up here in case this helps someone.

1. Grades. I came into law school with literally a 180 and 4.0, and guess what: I kind of suck at law school. Cant do a good issue spotter to save my life, which I discovered 1L. At YLS, this was not a problem: I went into black letter law classes chilled out, knowing I’m going for the eaaaasy P, and otherwise racked up a good number of freebie Hs in clinics and seminars. In the end I got a great job, partially on the strength of recommendations from particular professors I built relationships with. I know for a fact that I could not have gotten this job with a transcript full of Cs and B-s, which is what my Ps would translate into at Columbia.

...

3. General opportunities. As mentioned above, I ended up in a great job that simply would not have been possible without having worked much, much harder for better grades at Columbia. I also got a very nice 1L summer job literally because a fancy professor sent one email, before I had any grades on my transcript whatsoever. I’m not saying this is fair or right, or even strictly impossible elsewhere, but in my particular case I feel like I benefitted a whole lot from the yls name.


So: for the right person, eg in a position similar to mine, yls is a great choice and worth giving up a fancy scholarship for.

Thanks for this post. I also have personal experience -- not just theory/conjecture gleaned from websites -- with this sort of decision, and the two above points are the most important to emphasize for students in this position. General opportunities (in terms of flexibility and variety) available at Y/H/S are greater (at the margin, which is what's relevant for this type of choice) than at other T14 schools. And in terms of the standard opportunities (Biglaw, BigFed, etc), it's easier to get them from Y/H/S than the others.

Some people here are very invested in minimizing the distinctions within sub-groups within the T14, but for a prospective student with these kinds of choices, it's important to appreciate the long-term calculus. I say this, again just to echo your general point, as someone with personal experience with multiple schools (and friends/colleagues) in the T14.

[Cement]

To be clear, I think it's often defensible to choose YLS over CCN at a $72k difference, but I just don't think it's realistic for students to expect a mere $40k differential, which would indeed make the decision a no-brainer.

OP here - nope, my math is right. More specifically: there’s ~5k of fees, etc per year at CLS that aren’t covered by the Hamilton, and then there’s a substantial cost of living difference.

[NoLongerALurker]

Fwiw I chose HLS over Hamilton and don’t regret it. If I had to do it over again I might make the same choice — literally coin-flip worthy, IMO. I do really hate the debt but it’s not life defining

[Skool]

Sorry, I’m a bit confused by the OP.

Can you be more specific about the kind of job you got out of Yale? Big Law? DoJ honors? Skadden fellow? Sorry if I missed this in your post.

Having 40k more in debt is not as helpful as telling us how much more you spent to go to Columbia compared to Yale. I’m guessing Yale cost you 40k plus your pre-law school savings. You could have potentially kept that money if you took the Hamilton. What was the Yale coa?

[QContinuum]

Thanks for this post. I also have personal experience -- not just theory/conjecture gleaned from websites -- with this sort of decision, and the two above points are the most important to emphasize for students in this position. General opportunities (in terms of flexibility and variety) available at Y/H/S are greater (at the margin, which is what's relevant for this type of choice) than at other T14 schools. And in terms of the standard opportunities (Biglaw, BigFed, etc), it's easier to get them from Y/H/S than the others.

The TLS community skews disproportionately toward those who attended T13 schools, including the T6. I would not assume that the "typical TLSer" is operating on the sole basis of "theory/conjecture". Nor do I think it's true that "some people here are very invested in minimizing the distinctions within sub-groups within the T14". Aside from some obligatory alma mater cheerleading (e.g., folks saying Penn > NYU, or Harvard > Stanford, or Chicago > Harvard, or even, in one infamous case, Columbia = Yale), I understand the TLS conventional wisdom is that Yale is indeed a magical place, and beyond Yale, there is absolutely a (significant) placement power differential as you move down the T13. The TLS conventional wisdom is roughly that Y >= S > H > Chicago >= Columbia/NYU > MVPB > Duke/NW/Berkeley > Cornell.

I'd also push back on the point about YSH having more value than CCN only on the margins. I think Y/S have more value, period. Y/S have more value for students at the top, more value for the median student, and more value for the bottom 10%er. I do think H only has more value on the margins, specifically for the top 10-15%. The median H student is going to have functionally identical outcomes to the median CCN student, and bottom 10% at H isn't going to be any safer than bottom 10% at CCN.

Fwiw I chose HLS over Hamilton and don’t regret it. If I had to do it over again I might make the same choice — literally coin-flip worthy, IMO. I do really hate the debt but it’s not life defining

Could you elaborate a bit more on what opportunities you had at HLS that you would not have had at Columbia? Keep in mind, if you were top 10% at HLS, you would almost certainly also have been top 10% at Columbia.

[cavalier1138]

2. Debt. I’m an older student so I maxed out my financial aid (no parent contribution). All told I have about 40k more debt than I would’ve had at Columbia, once you incorporate all the fees etc not covered by the Hamilton, and that strikes me as a very reasonable deal.

I don't know why more people haven't been focusing on this point. If you qualify for max aid at Yale and end up with the difference in COA being around $40k, of course Yale is justifiable. What isn't justifiable is the more common question we see here: Harvard at sticker vs. CCN with a full ride.

[Cement]

2. Debt. I’m an older student so I maxed out my financial aid (no parent contribution). All told I have about 40k more debt than I would’ve had at Columbia, once you incorporate all the fees etc not covered by the Hamilton, and that strikes me as a very reasonable deal.

I don't know why more people haven't been focusing on this point. If you qualify for max aid at Yale and end up with the difference in COA being around $40k, of course Yale is justifiable. What isn't justifiable is the more common question we see here: Harvard at sticker vs. CCN with a full ride.

Fair. Still think it’s useful to point out that the difference bw max aid and free tuition isn’t necessarily huge. Especially with wild nyc cost of living, you can be looking at 100k in debt even w the Hamilton.

[The Lsat Airbender]

There's a lot of wood to chop about how much more HYS is worth than CCN but it's probably somewhere between $60k and $120k. Assuming they had a clear view of the costs going in, OP would have been crazy to take Columbia IMO. Likewise, people who spend an extra quarter-million dollars to go to (for example) Stanford over Chicago are out of their minds.

[Joachim2017]

The median H student is going to have functionally identical outcomes to the median CCN student, and bottom 10% at H isn't going to be any safer than bottom 10% at CCN.

This is not accurate based on both personal experience and that of people I know (both where I went to school and other schools). The median H student has a greater chance at some things than the median CCN student, including academia, government, clerkships, international law gigs, and (for indirect reasons) some small elite lit boutiques. Part of the reason is the network and the previous generations of placement; part of it (especially in the int'l law context) is the brand name; part of it is the self-selection (more ppl at HLS are interested in this relative to ppl at, e.g., Chicago); part of it is the nature of the grades (which flow into other considerations, like clerkships, which then determine lit boutique placement). The nature of grades at HLS makes a big difference, and you don't want to limit yourself going into law school, because who knows what you'll become interested in.

I'll give a few concrete examples. A few CoA judges I know only realistically interview from YSH+C (not Chicago or NYU); many academic positions go to students overwhelmingly from YSH + C (not NYU or CLS). Statistics are easily available for jobs like Big Law, but not for many of these other positions. You have more room for error (which is BIG going into law school; you have NO idea how well you'll do in law school based on things like undergrad) at a place like H, and median students there are harder to suss out than medians at CLS or NYU. Bottom 10% at H definitely has "functionally" more chances than bottom 10% at CCN, to the extent you can even identify what bottom H looks like.

[Cement]

Agree w Joachim above, particularly about the bottom 10% at yls, at least, being functionally unidentifiable. I’m sure there’s a couple people who for whatever reason have never stepped foot in class and have straight Ps with a few LPs. But 99% of people will have some combination of Hs and Ps. There are not a few classes where literally every single person gets an H.

For me the most useful thing has been the ability to disguise really bad performance - think never opening or even buying the casebook - with an all-purpose P.

[nixy]

I still think a ton of the academic placement is down to self-selection more than school name. I get that that’s hard to verify, but I still think it plays a role. I also think talking about “government” generically is misleading. There may be some gov jobs where in a vacuum median H > median Columbia, but lots of gov jobs are more interested in fit than in pure grades, so a Columbia grad with relevant experience/dedication to the mission would be a stronger candidate than an H grad without. Sure, if all else is absolutely equal, maybe H takes it over C. But everything else is almost never equal. Maybe the hiring official went to C. Maybe the hiring official thinks H students are privileged snobs. It’s all a little more complicated than median vs. median.

(But I also agree that if we’re talking about $40-60k difference in cost, sure, go to YHS over the next closest option. And the difference in grades is probably helpful, more for not being as identifiable as at the bottom - who’s at the top is usually clear everywhere.)

[QContinuum]

The median H student is going to have functionally identical outcomes to the median CCN student, and bottom 10% at H isn't going to be any safer than bottom 10% at CCN.

This is not accurate based on both personal experience and that of people I know (both where I went to school and other schools). The median H student has a greater chance at some things than the median CCN student, including academia, government, clerkships, international law gigs, and (for indirect reasons) some small elite lit boutiques. Part of the reason is the network and the previous generations of placement; part of it (especially in the int'l law context) is the brand name; part of it is the self-selection (more ppl at HLS are interested in this relative to ppl at, e.g., Chicago); part of it is the nature of the grades (which flow into other considerations, like clerkships, which then determine lit boutique placement). The nature of grades at HLS makes a big difference, and you don't want to limit yourself going into law school, because who knows what you'll become interested in.

I must disagree, also based on both personal experience and that of people I know (both where I went to school and other schools). The median H student absolutely ends up in the same place as the median CCN student. Sure, there are "outlier" outcomes from H where median students "outperform" their grades, but the same is true at CCN, which also have their own networks and their own previous generations of placement.

And no, "self-selection" at H does not mean H has better placement. Any more than "self-selection" at Y means Y is bad at placing students into BigLaw.

I am also not convinced that H's grades are so much more forgiving than CCN grades. I'll grant that H has the same advantage as CC over NYU, in the sense that H doesn't have a B- (or the equivalent thereof) on the curve, unlike NYU. But, CC also don't have B-s on the curve. And the kind of employers H/CCN students apply to are familiar enough with HLS' grades to recognize that DS = A, H = A-/B+, P = B, LP = B-/C. HLS isn't like Yale, where you only have two grades, no curve, and where, as Cement points out, it is indeed impossible to identify the bottom 10%. Median students are pretty easy to suss out at H by counting up the number of DSs, Hs, Ps on the transcript. Yes, straight-P H students generally do fine, but so do straight-B (or the equivalent) CCN students. And an LP on an H transcript is every bit as big of an eyesore as a B- on a CCN transcript.

I'll give a few concrete examples. A few CoA judges I know only realistically interview from YSH+C (not Chicago or NYU); many academic positions go to students overwhelmingly from YSH + C (not NYU or CLS).

Sure, but CoA clerkships and academic positions go to the rockstars. Neither of these examples refutes my post earlier ITT saying that Harvard only confers a benefit over CCN on the margins (i.e., to the top ~10-15%).

I continue to subscribe to the TLS conventional wisdom that Y >= S > H > Chicago >= Columbia/NYU > MVPB > Duke/NW/Berkeley > Cornell. There is no dispute that H is a step above CCN. But H is not interchangeable with Y/S, and H is not so far above CCN that it's worth sticker vs. a full-ride. Obviously, if one has the choice of Harvard vs. Columbia at a $40k price differential, all-in, over three years, take Harvard, but that's not the choice most 0Ls face. Very few 0Ls are 30+ such that parental contributions no longer factor in in determining need-based aid.