ITT: Harvard vs. Stanford Battle Royale Forum

[miskellyjohnson]

" I realized that Stanford was smaller in terms of enrollment but I did not realize that it was considered more prestigious than Harvard."

I'm not sure who considers it more prestigious. In terms of peer rankings and industry rankings from the survey that USNWR does, H is generally ahead of or tied with S, and has been ranked ahead of or tied with Y as well (including in the most recent rankings: https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blo ... kings.html ). Until very recently (2017), H was also ranked ahead of S and/or tied with it on the overall USNWR rankings. Y certainly has established a very aggressive pipeline into prestigious clerkships, and if you want to clerk that would be an advantage for you. But I will say I'm not sure where the S is considered "significantly" more prestigious that H comment comes from, as large scale surveys don't seem to bear that out (and at this level, it probably makes no difference anyway).

[jsnow212]

" I realized that Stanford was smaller in terms of enrollment but I did not realize that it was considered more prestigious than Harvard."

I'm not sure who considers it more prestigious. In terms of peer rankings and industry rankings from the survey that USNWR does, H is generally ahead of or tied with S, and has been ranked ahead of or tied with Y as well (including in the most recent rankings: https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blo ... kings.html ). Until very recently (2017), H was also ranked ahead of S and/or tied with it on the overall USNWR rankings. Y certainly has established a very aggressive pipeline into prestigious clerkships, and if you want to clerk that would be an advantage for you. But I will say I'm not sure where the S is considered "significantly" more prestigious that H comment comes from, as large scale surveys don't seem to bear that out (and at this level, it probably makes no difference anyway).

I think OP meant "prestige" in terms of difficulty to get in/exclusivity versus what law people think about the school. In that case, it is a correct assessment. H is significantly easier to get into than S.

[Igloo2022]

I think it's incorrect to say that HLS is easier to get into than SLS. Applicants with a 169/170 are basically auto-rejects at HLS this year, while they have a shot at SLS if their GPAs are perfect. It is true, however, true that HLS may sacrifice a bit in terms of "softs" to get an LSAT median that is much higher than SLS.

[QContinuum]

I think it's incorrect to say that HLS is easier to get into than SLS. Applicants with a 169/170 are basically auto-rejects at HLS this year, while they have a shot at SLS if their GPAs are perfect. It is true, however, true that HLS may sacrifice a bit in terms of "softs" to get an LSAT median that is much higher than SLS.

HLS is easier to get into for most applicants because it follows the numbers almost precisely. Yale and Stanford actually place weight on softs, which tends to hurt most applicants. So, yes, there is a very small subset of applicants with terrific softs who may get into Y/S whilst struggling at the rest of the T6 due to having weaker numbers, but most applicants rely on their numbers and thus find Y/S much harder to get into than H.

IME also Stanford is generally considered more prestigious than Harvard. There is an extra "wow" factor with Y/S J.D.s that isn't present to the same extent for HCCN J.D.s, perhaps because Y/S J.D.s are so much rarer due to their comparatively tiny classes.

[Igloo2022]

I think it's incorrect to say that HLS is easier to get into than SLS. Applicants with a 169/170 are basically auto-rejects at HLS this year, while they have a shot at SLS if their GPAs are perfect. It is true, however, true that HLS may sacrifice a bit in terms of "softs" to get an LSAT median that is much higher than SLS.

HLS is easier to get into for most applicants because it follows the numbers almost precisely. Yale and Stanford actually place weight on softs, which tends to hurt most applicants. So, yes, there is a very small subset of applicants with terrific softs who may get into Y/S whilst struggling at the rest of the T6 due to having weaker numbers, but most applicants rely on their numbers and thus find Y/S much harder to get into than H.

IME also Stanford is generally considered more prestigious than Harvard. There is an extra "wow" factor with Y/S J.D.s that isn't present to the same extent for HCCN J.D.s, perhaps because Y/S J.D.s are so much rarer due to their comparatively tiny classes.

I mean HLS is the #1 producer of SCOTUS clerks, and equal to SLS on per-capita basis, which makes me think its students are seen as being just as competitive and prestigious as S. YLS is another story. Also, HLS turns down plenty of people with the right numbers, especially if they lack work experience.
I'd guess that most would say that Harvard is a peer of Stanford and Yale, not NYU.

[QContinuum]

I mean HLS is the #1 producer of SCOTUS clerks, and equal to SLS on per-capita basis, which makes me think its students are seen as being just as competitive and prestigious as S.

Harvard's 2017 fed clerk percentage was 15.9%. Compare to Stanford at 26.4% - a 66% difference. Even Chicago is higher than Harvard, at 21%.

Key is looking at the schools as a whole. Not disputing that the top of H's class - the students who're SCOTUS clerk material - have access to the same amazing opportunities as any student at Y or S, including top Y/S students. But the typical Y/S student is in a better position than the typical H student.

Also, HLS turns down plenty of people with the right numbers, especially if they lack work experience.

The data don't indicate this. MyLSN repeatedly shows HLS admissions as largely numbers-driven, just like at CCN etc. As for WE, that's increasingly common across the T13 and not a HLS-only phenomenon.

I'd guess that most would say that Harvard is a peer of Stanford and Yale, not NYU.

Most would say that Harvard's the #3 law school in the country, behind Y and S, and arguably either tied with or a hair ahead of Chicago.

At least in some circles NYU is viewed as equal to or even better than Harvard for PI. I agree that overall Harvard's more prestigious than NYU, but the gap isn't huge.

[LBJ's Hair]

I think it's incorrect to say that HLS is easier to get into than SLS. Applicants with a 169/170 are basically auto-rejects at HLS this year, while they have a shot at SLS if their GPAs are perfect. It is true, however, true that HLS may sacrifice a bit in terms of "softs" to get an LSAT median that is much higher than SLS.

HLS is easier to get into for most applicants because it follows the numbers almost precisely. Yale and Stanford actually place weight on softs, which tends to hurt most applicants. So, yes, there is a very small subset of applicants with terrific softs who may get into Y/S whilst struggling at the rest of the T6 due to having weaker numbers, but most applicants rely on their numbers and thus find Y/S much harder to get into than H.

IME also Stanford is generally considered more prestigious than Harvard. There is an extra "wow" factor with Y/S J.D.s that isn't present to the same extent for HCCN J.D.s, perhaps because Y/S J.D.s are so much rarer due to their comparatively tiny classes.

I mean HLS is the #1 producer of SCOTUS clerks, and equal to SLS on per-capita basis, which makes me think its students are seen as being just as competitive and prestigious as S. YLS is another story. Also, HLS turns down plenty of people with the right numbers, especially if they lack work experience.
I'd guess that most would say that Harvard is a peer of Stanford and Yale, not NYU.

I don't think anyone thinks Harvard is a peer of Yale except Harvard students. the median Harvard student has the exact outcomes as CCN students - a BigLaw job, maybe a non-competitive district court clerkship. its admissions rate is basically identical to Columbia's, double that of YLS. there are grades. the head to head yield numbers for YLS-SLS are like, 85-15.

the top 10% of HLS is as strong as YLS. not the rest of the school though

[miskellyjohnson]

I don't think anyone thinks Harvard is a peer of Yale except Harvard students.

"Most would say that Harvard's the #3 law school in the country, behind Y and S, and arguably either tied with or a hair ahead of Chicago.

They actually do these surveys, where they ask the industry.

Specifically, "law school deans, deans of academic affairs, chairs of faculty appointments and the most recently tenured faculty members" that "were asked to rate programs on a scale from marginal (1) to outstanding (5)."

And " legal professionals – including the hiring partners of law firms, practicing attorneys and judges" who were aksed to do the same ranking...

Both of whhich, in an actual survey, that is taken seriously in the field (USNWR), ranked H ahead of Y this past year.

In the peer assessment score, Yale Law averaged a 4.8 out of 5.0 – second-best to Stanford Law and Harvard Law at 4.9. The same was true with the professional assessment score, with Yale Law alums averaging a 4.7 — again just a shade below the 4.8 yielded by Stanford Law and Harvard Law.

https://tippingthescales.com/2019/03/ya ... s-ranking/

(I say this not to boost H, but rather to question the obsession with Y and S on this sub. There is not a big difference between H and C, but there is not a big difference between Y and S and H either, except for very specific circumstances (prestigious fed clerkship being one).

[Igloo2022]

The HLS admissions rate is irrelevant. Its LSAT median is a 173, and the median GPA is a 3.9. Someone with a 3.7/169 is not going to apply to Harvard, because they aren't getting in. Also, I am sure that the cross-admit SLS v. HLS rate is at least 50/50, or even 60/40 in favor of HLS. Plenty of people turn down SLS in order to go to HLS. Also, H has a higher yield rate than S.

If you look at the average 5-, 10-, and 15-year USNews law ranking averages, you see that HLS is historically either equal to higher ranked than SLS. Obviously USNWR is flawed, but my point is that just because S has been ranked over H for the past couple years does not make S more prestigious. If we were having this conversation in 2011, when HLS had been #2 and SLS #3 for a number of years, probably people would be talking about how Y/H are so superior to #3 SLS. This is the link: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3026293

Look, all I'm saying is that HLS is not inferior to SLS. SLS may feed more into west coast district court clerkships, but for top-level positions, H is just as good. Yale is in its own league, but TLS is just too hard on Harvard.

[Igloo2022]

I'm looking at the 17-18 cycle on LSN now, and I see a 3.87/178, a 3.83/178, a 3.9/179, a 3.88/176, a 3.87/175, and others who didn't get in. If HLS were just an acceptance machine, then these individuals would have gotten in.

[cavalier1138]

Can we all just agree that the only people who actually care about this absurd distinction are Harvard students?

[jsnow212]

Can we all just agree that the only people who actually care about this absurd distinction are Harvard students?

Usually those who barely got into HLS and had no $$+ offers to consider from other T-10s

Edit: HLS is a great school with phenomenal outcomes. However, it and GULC are often unnecessarily put on a pedestal at their respective ranks, considering the cost relative to comparable options.

[QContinuum]

Can we all just agree that the only people who actually care about this absurd distinction are Harvard students?

Usually those who barely got into HLS and had no $$+ offers to consider from other T-10s

Edit: HLS is a great school with phenomenal outcomes. However, it and GULC are often unnecessarily put on a pedestal at their respective ranks, considering the cost relative to comparable options.

In fairness, we occasionally see this from other schools as well. I seem to recall a TLSer - a Columbia grad - who liked to refer to "Yale/Columbia students," which seriously isn't a thing. I've seen Duke and UVA folks argue that their schools ought to be considered T6s. And I think we've had some Chicagoans argue that their school ought to be lumped in with YSH instead of Columbia & NYU. Then on the flip side, we have one NYUer around here who likes to argue that Columbia's so much more elite than his despicable alma mater...

At some point it's all kinda ridiculous, these are all terrific schools and it's really silly to get into a battle royale over whether Harvard's better or Stanford's better.

[BrainsyK]

At some point it's all kinda ridiculous, these are all terrific schools and it's really silly to get into a battle royale over whether Harvard's better or Stanford's better.

Yes, but then some of TLS's most entertaining content wouldn't exist. Fight on, prestige whores.

[Veil of Ignorance]

I think it's incorrect to say that HLS is easier to get into than SLS. Applicants with a 169/170 are basically auto-rejects at HLS this year, while they have a shot at SLS if their GPAs are perfect. It is true, however, true that HLS may sacrifice a bit in terms of "softs" to get an LSAT median that is much higher than SLS.

HLS is easier to get into for most applicants because it follows the numbers almost precisely. Yale and Stanford actually place weight on softs, which tends to hurt most applicants. So, yes, there is a very small subset of applicants with terrific softs who may get into Y/S whilst struggling at the rest of the T6 due to having weaker numbers, but most applicants rely on their numbers and thus find Y/S much harder to get into than H.

IME also Stanford is generally considered more prestigious than Harvard. There is an extra "wow" factor with Y/S J.D.s that isn't present to the same extent for HCCN J.D.s, perhaps because Y/S J.D.s are so much rarer due to their comparatively tiny classes.

I mean HLS is the #1 producer of SCOTUS clerks, and equal to SLS on per-capita basis, which makes me think its students are seen as being just as competitive and prestigious as S. YLS is another story. Also, HLS turns down plenty of people with the right numbers, especially if they lack work experience.
I'd guess that most would say that Harvard is a peer of Stanford and Yale, not NYU.

I don't think anyone thinks Harvard is a peer of Yale except Harvard students. the median Harvard student has the exact outcomes as CCN students - a BigLaw job, maybe a non-competitive district court clerkship. its admissions rate is basically identical to Columbia's, double that of YLS. there are grades. the head to head yield numbers for YLS-SLS are like, 85-15.

the top 10% of HLS is as strong as YLS. not the rest of the school though

Do you actually have the data to show that the head to head yield of HLS and SLS is 15-85? I'm skeptical. Yale to Harvard, I'd believe that.

[RuthBeck]

I think the choice is obvious.