Convince me not to go to law school Forum

[BarelyConcealedRage]

Give me a route to impprove myself in a field kf work that isnt law, but (assuming a dual income household) allow for me to do the following:

- Provide for my parents retirement
- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)
- Allow me not to fear for basic necessities (housing, healthcare, education)

Because if your answer is just for me to stay at my deadend benefit-less sales job I would rather just put a bullet through my skull to be honest.

I'm open to anything. I've lost any sense of passion at this point. I've accepted I dont get the luxury of enhoying my job, most people don't.

Stats: 3.8, 170. Toilet Paper (political science) degree. Give me another option. I hate my current job and hate sales with a passion. And I'm paid garbage for it.

[QContinuum]

Give me a route to impprove myself in a field kf work that isnt law, but (assuming a dual income household) allow for me to do the following:

- Provide for my parents retirement
- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)
- Allow me not to fear for basic necessities (housing, healthcare, education)

The good news is, that's a very low bar that you've set. Many careers will allow you to keep a roof over your head and support a family. Most of these careers do not require first sacrificing three years and taking on up to six figures of debt. You could teach. Go into politics (actually put your poli sci degree to use?!). Join an advocacy organization. Work in state/local government. Pursue a non-sales corporate job, at your current company or elsewhere. Transition to marketing. Start your own business. Become a nurse or PA. Pursue tax or accounting. Find a trade gig (don't look down on blue-collar jobs, many of the trades pay very well). The possibilities are endless.

Because if your answer is just for me to stay at my deadend benefit-less sales job I would rather just put a bullet through my skull to be honest.

I've accepted I dont get the luxury of enhoying my job, most people don't.

These two sentences contradict each other.

[BarelyConcealedRage]

Give me a route to impprove myself in a field kf work that isnt law, but (assuming a dual income household) allow for me to do the following:

- Provide for my parents retirement
- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)
- Allow me not to fear for basic necessities (housing, healthcare, education)

The good news is, that's a very low bar that you've set. Many careers will allow you to keep a roof over your head and support a family. Most of these careers do not require first sacrificing three years and taking on up to six figures of debt. You could teach. Go into politics (actually put your poli sci degree to use?!). Join an advocacy organization. Work in state/local government. Pursue a non-sales corporate job, at your current company or elsewhere. Transition to marketing. Start your own business. Become a nurse or PA. Pursue tax or accounting. Find a trade gig (don't look down on blue-collar jobs, many of the trades pay very well). The possibilities are endless.

Because if your answer is just for me to stay at my deadend benefit-less sales job I would rather just put a bullet through my skull to be honest.

I've accepted I dont get the luxury of enhoying my job, most people don't.

These two sentences contradict each other.

If I was paid decently I could stomach my sales job. I'm not, I can't do the things I listed in the bullet I can barelt support myself.

[albanach]

Stats: 3.8, 170. Toilet Paper (political science) degree. Give me another option. I hate my current job and hate sales with a passion. And I'm paid garbage for it.

Unless you want to be a lawyer, you're likely to not enjoy it and resent the fact you're working so much that you can't even enjoy the earnings. You'll end up paying crazy money to rent a Manhattan apartment so you get an extra 45 minutes to enjoy not commuting or being at work.

That said, if you want to do law school, work at it a little more and nudge that LSAT higher. Do whatever you can to maximize scholarship $$$ so you can minimize debt. Then, if you're smart, you can either look for legal jobs that don't pay like biglaw but which offer more job satisfaction, or you can do biglaw and make serious savings that can fund an exit strategy.

[totesTheGoat]

- Provide for my parents retirement

Weird, but i'll go along with it. How much do you plan on paying your parents annually in their retirement?

- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)

In my experience, "having a vacation every now and then" is usually not what's meant when people want to "enjoy life". How many vacations, how often, how expensive? What else are you looping into "enjoying life" that is unstated in your flippant post?

- Allow me not to fear for basic necessities (housing, healthcare, education)

Hate to break it to you, but a paycheck won't change your emotions. It's just as easy to blow through $180k as it is to blow through $35k if you're not paying attention to your finances. Some of the brokest people I know make 6 figures. Some of the most financially secure people I know have never made above $60k. I've seen single moms making $35k pay off their cars and their mortgage. I've seen families making $250k get their electric shut off.

*snipped out all the self-pitying whining*

Even though your stats are good, you shouldn't go to law school right now. Your mindset is wrong, and you will end up with a poor outcome because of it. The single worst way to approach law school is out of desperation. That's how you make poor decisions. That's how you end up working 85 hours a week at a legal job you hate, wishing that you were at your abjectly horrible sales job again.

In your shoes, here's what I'd do.

1) get your financial house in order. I don't know (or care) what you make currently, but there are people making it on less than you. Usually they don't have car payments, they don't buy a bunch of frivolous crap, they don't eat out very often, and they track their money to the penny to make sure it is being spent on their priorities, and not on their whims.

2) start planning your exit from your current job. I'm not you, so I can't tell you what field to work in, but there are 100 million people out there with 100 million jobs.. i'm sure you can find one that you're qualified for. From oil and gas to software development, there's a vast spectrum of jobs available to you. Your long term exit plan can be law school if you're genuinely interested in law, but you need to get the stench of desperation off of you before you can make a sober decision about law school. If I were you, id work a different job for a year or two before making a final decision on law school.

3) you need a shift in mindset. The first two things I noticed when I read your post are that you're acting like a victim and you're acting desperate. Both of those mindsets are fatally toxic when you're trying to build a career path. Rather than compounding your poor decision making thus far, approach your present crisis from a new mindset. Research the hell out of your options, weigh costs and benefits. Determine a course of action that shuts the fewest doors financially, career path-wise, etc.

4) Evaluate your obligation to fund your parents' retirement. Perhaps this is a cultural difference, but I would balk if my parents expected me to help them retire. Saving for retirement was their responsibility, and my finances have been separate from theirs since I graduated high school. For your parents to burden you with paying for their retirement while you're broke seems very selfish to me.

[BarelyConcealedRage]

Weird, but i'll go along with it. How much do you plan on paying your parents annually in their retirement?

Likely around 1k a month at least. Likely until they pass.

And that is just one parent. The other I will probably have to just abandon.
- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)
[/quote]

In my experience, "having a vacation every now and then" is usually not what's meant when people want to "enjoy life". How many vacations, how often, how expensive? What else are you looping into "enjoying life" that is unstated in your flippant post?

Being able to eat out. Living in a decent home. Having 1 to 2 vacations a year thar involve actually leaving more than 20 miles from my home.

If I cant do that, there isn't much of a point in living is there? You are right that law school would be a bad investment if it can't do that. An investment in a few feet of rope would be better.

As it stands I am going to have to convince my fiance to accept a lifestyle change from a family that has porsches and ashton martins. If I cant at least have a life outside of working - which requires unthinkable amounts of money - its better to call it a game and quit.

Hate to break it to you, but a paycheck won't change your emotions. It's just as easy to blow through $180k as it is to blow through $35k if you're not paying attention to your finances.

I'm sorry, but unless you already come from wealth, I don't really see how that is true. I've seen the big law lawyers here whine about thwir budgets, and its true that if they have 200k of debt thats pretty depressing. But lots of these people are spending 3k a MONTH on car expenses, 1.5k on "fun' stuff like vacations etc. It's pretty clear those people dont what not having money is like if they blow through BMW level expenses without thinking about it.

Some of the brokest people I know make 6 figures. Some of the most financially secure people I know have never made above $60k. I've seen single moms making $35k pay off their cars and their mortgage. I've seen families making $250k get their electric shut off.

None of those people have their electrix shut off because of high incomes. And please lets not kids ourselves - those are the exception. The vast majority of people having their electric shitoff are the single moms who a single, big expense they can't payoff like a medical expense. Those single moms may be able to payoff the mortgage on their 800 sq ft home, but what happens if they get cancer? They, and their children, will starve

Even though your stats are good, you shouldn't go to law school right now. Your mindset is wrong, and you will end up with a poor outcome because of it. The single worst way to approach law school is out of desperation. That's how you make poor decisions. That's how you end up working 85 hours a week at a legal job you hate, wishing that you were at your abjectly horrible sales job again.

If I am going to spend the rest of my life making 35k with a max cap of 40-43k, I am not even going to bother with starting a family. I could not provide them a life worth living.

get your financial house in order. I don't know (or care) what you make currently, but there are people making it on less than you. Usually they don't have car payments, they don't buy a bunch of frivolous crap, they don't eat out very often, and they track their money to the penny to make sure it is being spent on their priorities, and not on their whims.

It is in order, my anxiety is over future expenses and the desire to live life, which of course, is not possible at my current job. I am not currently at risk of homelessness and have very little debt

start planning your exit from your current job. I'm not you, so I can't tell you what field to work in, but there are 100 million people out there with 100 million jobs.. i'm sure you can find one that you're qualified for. From oil and gas to software development, there's a vast spectrum of jobs available to you. Your long term exit plan can be law school if you're genuinely interested in law, but you need to get the stench of desperation off of you before you can make a sober decision about law school. If I were you, id work a different job for a year or two before making a final decision on law school.

I have applied to over 300 jobs the padt few weeks, and have not received any interest from any job that offers better pay r benefits. Not one. And they have ALL been sales positions.

My college degree is utterly worthless and honestly, probably more of a negative. It qualifies me for nothing. All evidence points to firther education (not neccesairly law school) if i am to be anything in life other than broke.

3) you need a shift in mindset. The first two things I noticed when I read your post are that you're acting like a victim and you're acting desperate. Both of those mindsets are fatally toxic when you're trying to build a career path. Rather than compounding your poor decision making thus far, approach your present crisis from a new mindset. Research the hell out of your options, weigh costs and benefits. Determine a course of action that shuts the fewest doors financially, career path-wise, etc.

I have done exactly that. The costs if not ourauing further is extreme.

4) Evaluate your obligation to fund your parents' retirement. Perhaps this is a cultural difference, but I would balk if my parents expected me to help them retire. Saving for retirement was their responsibility, and my finances have been separate from theirs since I graduated high school. For your parents to burden you with paying for their retirement while you're broke seems very selfish to me.

They were unable to save for retirement because of unpredictable financial desires. They do not waste money on cars or luxuries. Divorce, health problems, and the 2008 recession devastated all of their savings.

Do you know what it is like to look your parents in the eye and tell them, I have to let you live in the streets?

[nixy]

If I am going to spend the rest of my life making 35k with a max cap of 40-43k, I am not even going to bother with starting a family. I could not provide them a life worth living.

I have applied to over 300 jobs the padt few weeks, and have not received any interest from any job that offers better pay r benefits. Not one. And they have ALL been sales positions.

I tend to agree with totes that you sound desperate because not seeing a future in your current job does not at all mean that you are going to max out at $40k in life. When did you actually graduate/how long have you been in your current job? Have you considered applying for jobs that aren’t sales jobs? Just because that’s your current job doesn’t mean you won’t be able to successfully apply to other positions.

It sort of sounds to me like you might need career counseling on how to identify skills you’ve acquired from your current job (and any other past work) and how to target jobs where they will be helpful/attractive. Right now you sound so closed off to any other possibilities than further education, that attitude is going to show through and you wouldn’t look like a strong candidate for anything.

(Also, when are you parents retiring and what is their current employment status? I get wanting to support them but it’s unclear to me why you are worried about that right now.)

[BarelyConcealedRage]

If I am going to spend the rest of my life making 35k with a max cap of 40-43k, I am not even going to bother with starting a family. I could not provide them a life worth living.

I have applied to over 300 jobs the padt few weeks, and have not received any interest from any job that offers better pay r benefits. Not one. And they have ALL been sales positions.

I tend to agree with totes that you sound desperate because not seeing a future in your current job does not at all mean that you are going to max out at $40k in life. When did you actually graduate/how long have you been in your current job? Have you considered applying for jobs that aren’t sales jobs? Just because that’s your current job doesn’t mean you won’t be able to successfully apply to other positions.

It sort of sounds to me like you might need career counseling on how to identify skills you’ve acquired from your current job (and any other past work) and how to target jobs where they will be helpful/attractive. Right now you sound so closed off to any other possibilities than further education, that attitude is going to show through and you wouldn’t look like a strong candidate for anything.

(Also, when are you parents retiring and what is their current employment status? I get wanting to support them but it’s unclear to me why you are worried about that right now.)

I don't know where I would go to get said counseling. I doubt my alma maters would be of much help, they usually dont know what they are talking about and it is a tiny, not prestigous school, so they have no alumni base to pull jobs from.

I have applied to non sales jobs. The only ones that return my calls are customer services positions that pay 12-14 an hour, no benefits. Even warehouse manager trainee positions that start at 15 an hour tell me I am unqualified. One administrative support job I applied to sent me an email back asking why I even applied, and rejected me in all caps by critiquing my cover letter for not being specific enough.

I have applied to import/export. Adminidtrative support. Finance. Secretary and legal aide positions. Manager training programs. Technical positions. Nobody returns my calls. Nobody emails me back. The only responses I get back are sales recruiters, offering me the same 30-35k I always get. And everytime I ask what kind of future is in the company, I see the co workers working therr after 5 years, getting the exact same pay they did when they started.

My father is employed but in twrrible health. Our house, which he has been underwater on for the past 10 years, is falling apart and delapidated to the point I believe it afdects my familys health. My mother is mentally and has a small retirement she was surciving on, but has run out and is incapable of mainting steady employment. She came into our house sobbing and asking for a place to stay a few weeks ago, but aince relations between her and my dad are so poor, we had to turn her away so she is now on the streets. She lives in her car currently.

[nixy]

I’m sorry about your parents’ situation (I think there may have been some confusion over the term “retirement”).

Why not try your alma mater’s career counseling to see if it might possibly be helpful? I know they can’t hand you a job and I know jobs are hard to get but it doesn’t sound like you have anything to lose?

[nealric]

Give me a route to impprove myself in a field kf work that isnt law, but (assuming a dual income household) allow for me to do the following:

- Provide for my parents retirement
- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)
- Allow me not to fear for basic necessities (housing, healthcare, education)

Because if your answer is just for me to stay at my deadend benefit-less sales job I would rather just put a bullet through my skull to be honest.

I'm open to anything. I've lost any sense of passion at this point. I've accepted I dont get the luxury of enhoying my job, most people don't.

Stats: 3.8, 170. Toilet Paper (political science) degree. Give me another option. I hate my current job and hate sales with a passion. And I'm paid garbage for it.

Honestly, a 3.8/170 Polisci degree with no other prospects is a pretty prime candidate for a legal career. The key is keeping the debt down, going to a school with strong job prospects, and figuring out a niche within the law that works for you.

[QContinuum]

Give me a route to impprove myself in a field kf work that isnt law, but (assuming a dual income household) allow for me to do the following:

- Provide for my parents retirement
- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)
- Allow me not to fear for basic necessities (housing, healthcare, education)

Because if your answer is just for me to stay at my deadend benefit-less sales job I would rather just put a bullet through my skull to be honest.
,
I'm open to anything. I've lost any sense of passion at this point. I've accepted I dont get the luxury of enhoying my job, most people don't.

Stats: 3.8, 170. Toilet Paper (political science) degree. Give me another option. I hate my current job and hate sales with a passion. And I'm paid garbage for it.

Honestly, a 3.8/170 Polisci degree with no other prospects is a pretty prime candidate for a legal career. The key is keeping the debt down, going to a school with strong job prospects, and figuring out a niche within the law that works for you.

All true, and yet I'm hesitant to go all-in on supporting this route, because BigLaw isn't a walk in the park. Plenty of folks who are truly passionate about law find they can't stomach the reality of BigLaw and burn out in short order - often before they've worked enough years to make law school a good ROI. OP's main reason for doing law seems to be $. S/he hasn't articulated a single reason why they think they would enjoy practicing law.

OP says they'd be able to stomach their sales job, which they strongly dislike, if it paid better. This seems to be why OP thinks they could stomach working in BigLaw. But BigLaw's generally much more intense than the average sales job. The average sales job doesn't involve working 10-12+ hour days, having dinner in the office every night, scheduling unpredictability up the wazoo, canceling family weekend/vacation plans at the last minute, being instantly available 'round the clock 24/7/365, including on major holidays and during vacations. I note that OP's goals generally revolve around embarking on a career that would make it possible to have a quality family life - this is kind of directly in conflict with the idea of working in BigLaw.

As I pointed out earlier ITT, there are plenty of other careers - that have much lower burnout rates than law, and that have much better QOL than law - that would allow OP to achieve their aim of making a decent middle-class living. Most of these careers do not require first sacrificing three years and taking on up to six figures of debt.

[BarelyConcealedRage]

Give me a route to impprove myself in a field kf work that isnt law, but (assuming a dual income household) allow for me to do the following:

- Provide for my parents retirement
- Enjoy life (have a vacation every now and then)
- Allow me not to fear for basic necessities (housing, healthcare, education)

Because if your answer is just for me to stay at my deadend benefit-less sales job I would rather just put a bullet through my skull to be honest.
,
I'm open to anything. I've lost any sense of passion at this point. I've accepted I dont get the luxury of enhoying my job, most people don't.

Stats: 3.8, 170. Toilet Paper (political science) degree. Give me another option. I hate my current job and hate sales with a passion. And I'm paid garbage for it.

Honestly, a 3.8/170 Polisci degree with no other prospects is a pretty prime candidate for a legal career. The key is keeping the debt down, going to a school with strong job prospects, and figuring out a niche within the law that works for you.

All true, and yet I'm hesitant to go all-in on supporting this route, because BigLaw isn't a walk in the park. Plenty of folks who are truly passionate about law find they can't stomach the reality of BigLaw and burn out in short order - often before they've worked enough years to make law school a good ROI. OP's main reason for doing law seems to be $. S/he hasn't articulated a single reason why they think they would enjoy practicing law.

OP says they'd be able to stomach their sales job, which they strongly dislike, if it paid better. This seems to be why OP thinks they could stomach working in BigLaw. But BigLaw's generally much more intense than the average sales job. The average sales job doesn't involve working 10-12+ hour days, having dinner in the office every night, scheduling unpredictability up the wazoo, canceling family weekend/vacation plans at the last minute, being instantly available 'round the clock 24/7/365, including on major holidays and during vacations. I note that OP's goals generally revolve around embarking on a career that would make it possible to have a quality family life - this is kind of directly in conflict with the idea of working in BigLaw.

As I pointed out earlier ITT, there are plenty of other careers - that have much lower burnout rates than law, and that have much better QOL than law - that would allow OP to achieve their aim of making a decent middle-class living. Most of these careers do not require first sacrificing three years and taking on up to six figures of debt.

With all due respect, I don't really think the careers you suggested were any more viable. Having actually worked in politics I know of 2 routes you can take:

1) Campaigns, which have 0 barrier to entry, but require you to 70-80 work weeks with high intensity for 30-40k in pay. And you habe to drive everywhere and they dont reimburse you for gas.

I don't kniw if its better on the other side but thata how it was for me.

2) Working on the Hill/DC, which requires some sort of "in" and absolutely massive risk of moving to DV without solid plan.

I quite deliberately decided not to do politics.

Teaching also requires further education. I cannot teach with just a bachelors in political science. I have been rejected by advocacy organizations, government jobs of every sort, and pretty much every corporate non sales job. Becoming a nurse and - especially - a PA and/or nursing degree requires going back for effectively a second bachelors ($$$) and for the PA, spening even more time than i would in law school for similar debt. Trust me in retrospect, I like caring for old people and would have loved to have bern a nurse but I thinkt thats too late now.

I will be clear here that I am open to non biglaw. I already know I can to my local flagship for full tuition + living expenses and still have a 20% at big law. 180k isn't necessary for a middle class lifestyle on that salary. I also have a big law partner as an in law although from what ive gathered from him, it is profoundly unlikely I could use that as a pull. It is also really embarrising to even hold a conversation with him since he is so rich and I am so poor. He actually recommended I pursue careers outside of law without giving a suggestion so he 100% not rooting for me.

I just struggle with your suggestions because I had already considered them. Sales was my last choice - I would hsve done the things you mentioned already if they made sense to do. Trades do not pay nearly as well as you think they do and I certainly dont look down on them. But I dont think you know too many tradesmen, there is reason all of our blue collar parents pushed for college, albeit ignorantly. Starting a business requires collateral I dont have, and first off I need an actual business idea. If I don't have the startup capital and cant get loan with no collateral, starting anything bigger than mowing peoples lawns is out of the realm of possibility.

I don't think law school magic bullet but nothing is. I should have used my undergrad full ride to study STEM but I wasted that.

[AJordan]

Have you considered getting a CDL? I do know/have many friends in the trades and right now the need really isn't for bodies so much as for skills. The simplest skill that leads to immediate money seems to be CDL/HAZMAT certs. Those jobs enter above most entering public law salaries and the overtime is available pretty easily. Plus there's no restrictive bar process and there is work in areas with super low COL. I have a friend who's clearing 70k after one year driving a massive truck in a mine in the southwest. He's married with four kids and supporting her parents as well. At a minimum the barriers to entry are super low and if you really wanted to put your head down for two or three years you could probably save 100k to make this transition a little less scary. You'd always also have something to fall back on if you didn't enjoy/like the law grind.

As far as other trades are concerned it just takes time. Sure your apprentice carpenter/electrician/plumber jobs aren't paying much but once you get your journeyman certs tons of opportunities open up. After a decade your salaries are on par with in house lawyers. It can be done, it just requires time. I also have a few friends that are climbing electrical poles and loving it. Another few are working in the energy fields moving from Dakotas to Texas to LA to wherever there is work. Once you have some experience you can make plenty of money to fill your goals. "The trades" is so broad. There are options out there.

[Wild Card]

3.8/170 will have you owing 350,000 at 7 percent compounding and capitalizing interest. You'll get biglaw, but you may be fired in as little as 1.5 years. 75 percent of biglaw associates leave, voluntarily or involuntarily, by year 5. There are no exit options. Your best case scenario is returning to positive net worth after 5 years, but you'll be unemployed for the rest of your life.

[BarelyConcealedRage]

3.8/170 will have you owing 350,000 at 7 percent compounding and capitalizing interest. You'll get biglaw, but you may be fired in as little as 1.5 years. 75 percent of biglaw associates leave, voluntarily or involuntarily, by year 5. There are no exit options. Your best case scenario is returning to positive net worth after 5 years, but you'll be unemployed for the rest of your life.

There are no exit option after 5 years? This is not what I jad been led to believe.

And mylsn says I can go T14 witbout sticker.

[nealric]

3.8/170 will have you owing 350,000 at 7 percent compounding and capitalizing interest. You'll get biglaw, but you may be fired in as little as 1.5 years. 75 percent of biglaw associates leave, voluntarily or involuntarily, by year 5. There are no exit options. Your best case scenario is returning to positive net worth after 5 years, but you'll be unemployed for the rest of your life.

Give me a break. I did a 3-year stint in biglaw and have a good in-house job now. My debt is paid off, and my net worth is considerably more than I ever borrowed. Yes, a huge portion of my class was gone by year 5 form my firm, but most of them are gainfully employed in jobs that pay at least six figures. They lateraled, wen't in-house, or got government jobs. It's not at all common for biglaw associates to be fired in 1.5 years and be out on the street. My

Sober consideration is good, and I will be the first to tell you that the biglaw experience is not a walk in the park, but the negativity by some folks around here goes well beyond sober consideration.

Keep in mind that personality plays a big role. I didn't mind biglaw too much, but I don't think I could be happy in most sales roles. It's a different personality type that excels in either role. Yes, a successful partner has to sell, but it's more about demonstrating your expertise and providing good service to clients than pushing someone else's product or service.