what are the focuses of each of the top 14? Forum

[29qwerty29]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

[Veil of Ignorance]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I think if you are gunning for Big Law, you should try to got to the school that gives you the best shot of Big Law. You can do M&A from any law school in America, the question is getting a law firm job. So, for instance, Columbia, NYU, and Chicago have excellent Big Law placement, as does UPenn, Harvard, Stanford, and Yale (though many Yale grads self-select out of law firm jobs, but that could easily get them). I wouldn't think of the T14 as having "flavors." They are an assortment of similar schools that have varying rates of placement into clerkships and law firms, with generally better results in the regions that they are located.

[Veil of Ignorance]

So maybe check this out:

http://www.vault.com/school-rankings/best-law-schools/

[cavalier1138]

The entire T14 (with the possible exception of GULC) is specifically known for preparing you for corporate law. Specialties like M&A are something you get to through practice, not through having a teacher with slightly more published papers than the teacher at the other great school.

If you had said you were interested in something like international or tax law, then there might be a little more nuance to the discussion. But there is not a specific T14 school that really blows the others out of the water in securities and M&A. The only exception would be if you have found a particular professor that you want to work with.

Biglaw is biglaw. They are not expecting you to come in as a first-year associate and be the expert of your practice group. If your goal is a big law firm in corporate practice, then go to the best T14 you can for a reasonable price.

[HYPSM]

.

[btruj777]

I like where the "intent" behind OP's post was directed towards.

While all of the T14 are very great at doing a lot of things - literally the BEST 14.

I also wondered what would set each one apart from the rest, apart from ranking, price, prestige, and spatial location. So, their actual education.

For example, if one said "I want to live and breath Law and Econ" one would answer UChi! What about the other schools? Like I think Harvard is the place to be if you wanna a shot at SCOTUS/clerk?

What would you answer to someone who wants philosophy+law? NYU? or Chi?

[QuentonCassidy]

For example, if one said "I want to live and breath Law and Econ" one would answer UChi! What about the other schools? Like I think Harvard is the place to be if you wanna a shot at SCOTUS/clerk

Yale is the place you want to be if you want to be a SCOTUS clerk (or pretty much anything for that matter)

[Rigo]

So maybe check this out:
http://www.vault.com/school-rankings/best-law-schools/

Yeah Berkeley really is too numbers focused.

[34iplaw]

It may not relate directly to the law schools, but I imagine that, if interested in real estate, the following schools are known for having strong real estate programs (or MBAs with real estate focuses) IIRC...

Columbia/NYU (mainly due to location)
Berkeley (Haas is a beast for real estate IIRC)
U Penn (Wharton is quite well known for real estate and family ventures)
Cornell

That said, I think the other posters are right. Schools may feed into firms with certain practice areas that are stronger due to the region or something though. My list above are just schools where I think you could take some real estate classes and also probably meet people who will be working for prestigious groups in REPE/REIB/etc. where those connections may have value down the line.

[guynourmin]

What would you answer to someone who wants philosophy+law? NYU? or Chi?

If you want to pursue a PhD/JD, NYU, definitely. Whoever said Y could always be the right answer is right here too. Chi up there, though.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I like where the "intent" behind OP's post was directed towards.

While all of the T14 are very great at doing a lot of things - literally the BEST 14.

I also wondered what would set each one apart from the rest, apart from ranking, price, prestige, and spatial location. So, their actual education.

For example, if one said "I want to live and breath Law and Econ" one would answer UChi! What about the other schools? Like I think Harvard is the place to be if you wanna a shot at SCOTUS/clerk?

What would you answer to someone who wants philosophy+law? NYU? or Chi?

I would wonder what they mean by philosophy and law. Like, will you be doing a joint degree? Because that would largely be about the philosophy options at a given school, not the legal options. Law is a generalist's degree and you don't really do "philosophy + law" for a JD. Any of the T14 will prepare you equally well to do about 90% of legal jobs.

If you want academia or other "unicorn" outcomes, HYS are probably best (especially Y). After that, even in the T14, region has some sway (like if you want to work in NCal go to S or Berkeley over, say, Duke. I'm sure plenty of Duke people make it to California but I'd still say one of the Cali schools is going to be a little more preferable). But their educational offerings don't make a difference (unless mayyyyyyybe you're absolutely dedicated to some *extremely* narrow niche. But I can't even think of what one would be).

Because remember, law school curricula are heavily regulated/determined/standardized based on people needing to pass the bar. Schools pretty much all teach the same thing.

[grades??]

I like where the "intent" behind OP's post was directed towards.

While all of the T14 are very great at doing a lot of things - literally the BEST 14.

I also wondered what would set each one apart from the rest, apart from ranking, price, prestige, and spatial location. So, their actual education.

For example, if one said "I want to live and breath Law and Econ" one would answer UChi! What about the other schools? Like I think Harvard is the place to be if you wanna a shot at SCOTUS/clerk?

What would you answer to someone who wants philosophy+law? NYU? or Chi?

I would wonder what they mean by philosophy and law. Like, will you be doing a joint degree? Because that would largely be about the philosophy options at a given school, not the legal options. Law is a generalist's degree and you don't really do "philosophy + law" for a JD. Any of the T14 will prepare you equally well to do about 90% of legal jobs.

If you want academia or other "unicorn" outcomes, HYS are probably best (especially Y). After that, even in the T14, region has some sway (like if you want to work in NCal go to S or Berkeley over, say, Duke. I'm sure plenty of Duke people make it to California but I'd still say one of the Cali schools is going to be a little more preferable). But their educational offerings don't make a difference (unless mayyyyyyybe you're absolutely dedicated to some *extremely* narrow niche. But I can't even think of what one would be).

Because remember, law school curricula are heavily regulated/determined/standardized based on people needing to pass the bar. Schools pretty much all teach the same thing.

Agreed, and also remember if you want to do a dual phd in philosophy and jd, it will be significantly harder to get into a phd program. Many of the t14 law schools are also schools where the phd philosophy program is near the top in the US (with NYU probably being #1, with Harvard and Yale right behind). But even places like Michigan, UVA, and Duke have extremely competitive phd programs that will be much harder to get into than the law school itself.

[btruj777]

I like where the "intent" behind OP's post was directed towards.

While all of the T14 are very great at doing a lot of things - literally the BEST 14.

I also wondered what would set each one apart from the rest, apart from ranking, price, prestige, and spatial location. So, their actual education.

For example, if one said "I want to live and breath Law and Econ" one would answer UChi! What about the other schools? Like I think Harvard is the place to be if you wanna a shot at SCOTUS/clerk?

What would you answer to someone who wants philosophy+law? NYU? or Chi?

I would wonder what they mean by philosophy and law. Like, will you be doing a joint degree? Because that would largely be about the philosophy options at a given school, not the legal options. Law is a generalist's degree and you don't really do "philosophy + law" for a JD. Any of the T14 will prepare you equally well to do about 90% of legal jobs.

If you want academia or other "unicorn" outcomes, HYS are probably best (especially Y). After that, even in the T14, region has some sway (like if you want to work in NCal go to S or Berkeley over, say, Duke. I'm sure plenty of Duke people make it to California but I'd still say one of the Cali schools is going to be a little more preferable). But their educational offerings don't make a difference (unless mayyyyyyybe you're absolutely dedicated to some *extremely* narrow niche. But I can't even think of what one would be).

Because remember, law school curricula are heavily regulated/determined/standardized based on people needing to pass the bar. Schools pretty much all teach the same thing.

Agreed, and also remember if you want to do a dual phd in philosophy and jd, it will be significantly harder to get into a phd program. Many of the t14 law schools are also schools where the phd philosophy program is near the top in the US (with NYU probably being #1, with Harvard and Yale right behind). But even places like Michigan, UVA, and Duke have extremely competitive phd programs that will be much harder to get into than the law school itself.

Thank you guys! I agree that a PhD program for a great portion of the T14 is harder to get into. I also think that it would be unwise to do both JD/PhD, seeing as the programs might become diluted. I also agree that the curriculum at the school's are regulated and all pointed towards the same end.

However, there necessarily exists a difference between taking Philosophy courses at The Law School @ UChi under Martha Nussbaum than say maybe Berkeley. These differences and distinctions are found in the faculty and in the courses outside of the main curriculum. For example, I heard it said that Berkeley has a very strong IP and Tech law focus. I also know that Stanford and I think Harvard have Clinics dedicated for work with SCOTUS. On the other side you have NU Center for Wrongful Convictions. These are minor differences, but that can speak towards a certain subset of students a population of applicants. I think these things are worth noting right?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Only on the absolute margins. If everything else (job placement in region/field, cost) is absolutely equal, sure, pick based on clinics or courses. But really you can get experience in any of those things from any T14 school. The schools just like to hype programs to make them look different.

Also I think the problem with talking about schools "focuses" is that it feeds into a mentality that you "specialize" in law school in a way similar to an academic specialization or undergrad major. I just don't think it makes sense to think about it that way. Harvard's SCOTUS clinic is a course offering, it's not a "school focus." Ditto for NU's wrongful convictions clinic - they offer it, I'm sure it's great, but it doesn't make NU a "wrongful convictions" school.

(I think something like Berkeley's tech focus may be a little more different, but that's more about Berkeley's location than just course offerings.)

[BigZuck]

No school prepares you to be a corporate lawyer

I doubt there are any schools that actually prepare you to be a real lawyer either

If you want big law likely any T14 would be sufficient, I'd just focus on cost and other personal factors (like where you would prefer to spend 3 years of your life)

[btruj777]

Only on the absolute margins. If everything else (job placement in region/field, cost) is absolutely equal, sure, pick based on clinics or courses. But really you can get experience in any of those things from any T14 school. The schools just like to hype programs to make them look different.

Also I think the problem with talking about schools "focuses" is that it feeds into a mentality that you "specialize" in law school in a way similar to an academic specialization or undergrad major. I just don't think it makes sense to think about it that way. Harvard's SCOTUS clinic is a course offering, it's not a "school focus." Ditto for NU's wrongful convictions clinic - they offer it, I'm sure it's great, but it doesn't make NU a "wrongful convictions" school.

(I think something like Berkeley's tech focus may be a little more different, but that's more about Berkeley's location than just course offerings.)

+1 I think we all agree that the concept of law school narrowing down your education to one "focus" is actually totally far filed and actually contrary to goal of law school. I love the way you put it, all things being held equal, one person may choose based on those little differences that might matter to them a big deal. Great reply! I hope this helps OP?

[29qwerty29]

ya, thanks for all the responses.. very helpful, not so much in giving me an answer.. but in shaping how I think of this whole process

[landshoes]

A JD/PhD doesn't meaningfully "dilute" either program; you will do just as much PhD coursework as you'd otherwise do and probably 2/3 of law school curriculum or more. And law school "curriculum" is so open-ended after 1L it doesn't make sense to consider it "diluted."

But a JD/PhD makes no sense unless you're 100% academia and have the credentials to get into a top PhD in your field.

[AvatarMeelo]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I've been particularly interested in International Arbitration so my experience thusfar has been to look at the profiles of the partners of the top firms in the category. Ex. White and Case is one of the best, if not the best, for IA and NYU and Georgetown are two schools that seems to be consistently represented. But that's also true for a lot of the T14. Above the Law lists which firms pick up grads from which schools.

Keep in mind though, this is a VERY eggs in one basket sort of approach. In any case, you'd have to have amazing grades 1L in order to even secure interviews during 2L fall with the firms that have M&A and/or Securities practices (which is most of BigLaw).

[Veil of Ignorance]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I've been particularly interested in International Arbitration so my experience thusfar has been to look at the profiles of the partners of the top firms in the category. Ex. White and Case is one of the best, if not the best, for IA and NYU and Georgetown are two schools that seems to be consistently represented. But that's also true for a lot of the T14. Above the Law lists which firms pick up grads from which schools.

Keep in mind though, this is a VERY eggs in one basket sort of approach. In any case, you'd have to have amazing grades 1L in order to even secure interviews during 2L fall with the firms that have M&A and/or Securities practices (which is most of BigLaw).

What makes you say that White and Case is the best at IA? I'd imagine IA is a field that's quite difficult to get into, given that it's kind of a "glamorous" type of law that evokes images of negotiating with dignitaries, jetting to Paris, Tokyo, etc... Do you know if it's actually possible to do IA work as an associate at a biglaw firm?

[RamTitan]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I've been particularly interested in International Arbitration so my experience thusfar has been to look at the profiles of the partners of the top firms in the category. Ex. White and Case is one of the best, if not the best, for IA and NYU and Georgetown are two schools that seems to be consistently represented. But that's also true for a lot of the T14. Above the Law lists which firms pick up grads from which schools.

Keep in mind though, this is a VERY eggs in one basket sort of approach. In any case, you'd have to have amazing grades 1L in order to even secure interviews during 2L fall with the firms that have M&A and/or Securities practices (which is most of BigLaw).

What makes you say that White and Case is the best at IA? I'd imagine IA is a field that's quite difficult to get into, given that it's kind of a "glamorous" type of law that evokes images of negotiating with dignitaries, jetting to Paris, Tokyo, etc... Do you know if it's actually possible to do IA work as an associate at a biglaw firm?

What is IA law?

[AvatarMeelo]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I've been particularly interested in International Arbitration so my experience thusfar has been to look at the profiles of the partners of the top firms in the category. Ex. White and Case is one of the best, if not the best, for IA and NYU and Georgetown are two schools that seems to be consistently represented. But that's also true for a lot of the T14. Above the Law lists which firms pick up grads from which schools.

Keep in mind though, this is a VERY eggs in one basket sort of approach. In any case, you'd have to have amazing grades 1L in order to even secure interviews during 2L fall with the firms that have M&A and/or Securities practices (which is most of BigLaw).

What makes you say that White and Case is the best at IA? I'd imagine IA is a field that's quite difficult to get into, given that it's kind of a "glamorous" type of law that evokes images of negotiating with dignitaries, jetting to Paris, Tokyo, etc... Do you know if it's actually possible to do IA work as an associate at a biglaw firm?

Chambers put W&C in Band 1 of their Global-Wide rankings and its been my understanding that TLS trusts Chambers rankings, no? Also, in terms of difficult to get into, that's why it's an abstract goal for me rather than the ultimate one. I'd like to do it, but I'm not counting on it. As far as I can tell between those on TLS who have shared their experiences and the people I've spoken with at networking events, you'd have to make the effort to indicate you're interested in such a field.

In regards to your question about whether associate work is possible - yes, absolutely. I've only been looking at W&C as an example but they have associates at their many offices - http://www.whitecase.com/people/all/765 ... vance/desc. From what I can tell, having an interest in international work and knowing an additional language is a must.

I feel like I have to mention that I haven't even taken the LSAT so me looking all this is up is being super cautious about a BigLaw career. One of the most common pieces of advice I get is to figure out how the people doing the job you want got there, so you can put yourself in that position also... hence, me looking all this stuff up about international arbitration practices.

[AvatarMeelo]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I've been particularly interested in International Arbitration so my experience thusfar has been to look at the profiles of the partners of the top firms in the category. Ex. White and Case is one of the best, if not the best, for IA and NYU and Georgetown are two schools that seems to be consistently represented. But that's also true for a lot of the T14. Above the Law lists which firms pick up grads from which schools.

Keep in mind though, this is a VERY eggs in one basket sort of approach. In any case, you'd have to have amazing grades 1L in order to even secure interviews during 2L fall with the firms that have M&A and/or Securities practices (which is most of BigLaw).

What makes you say that White and Case is the best at IA? I'd imagine IA is a field that's quite difficult to get into, given that it's kind of a "glamorous" type of law that evokes images of negotiating with dignitaries, jetting to Paris, Tokyo, etc... Do you know if it's actually possible to do IA work as an associate at a biglaw firm?

What is IA law?

If you're very interested in the answer, I'd like to direct your attention to this brochure Latham & Watkins put together for their associates: https://www.lw.com/thoughtleadership/gu ... ation-2014.

In short, its a practice that brings in a third, neutral party to hammer out compromises between two entities whether that's two international corporations, or even two separate states.

[Veil of Ignorance]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I've been particularly interested in International Arbitration so my experience thusfar has been to look at the profiles of the partners of the top firms in the category. Ex. White and Case is one of the best, if not the best, for IA and NYU and Georgetown are two schools that seems to be consistently represented. But that's also true for a lot of the T14. Above the Law lists which firms pick up grads from which schools.

Keep in mind though, this is a VERY eggs in one basket sort of approach. In any case, you'd have to have amazing grades 1L in order to even secure interviews during 2L fall with the firms that have M&A and/or Securities practices (which is most of BigLaw).

What makes you say that White and Case is the best at IA? I'd imagine IA is a field that's quite difficult to get into, given that it's kind of a "glamorous" type of law that evokes images of negotiating with dignitaries, jetting to Paris, Tokyo, etc... Do you know if it's actually possible to do IA work as an associate at a biglaw firm?

Chambers put W&C in Band 1 of their Global-Wide rankings and its been my understanding that TLS trusts Chambers rankings, no? Also, in terms of difficult to get into, that's why it's an abstract goal for me rather than the ultimate one. I'd like to do it, but I'm not counting on it. As far as I can tell between those on TLS who have shared their experiences and the people I've spoken with at networking events, you'd have to make the effort to indicate you're interested in such a field.

In regards to your question about whether associate work is possible - yes, absolutely. I've only been looking at W&C as an example but they have associates at their many offices - http://www.whitecase.com/people/all/765 ... vance/desc. From what I can tell, having an interest in international work and knowing an additional language is a must.

I feel like I have to mention that I haven't even taken the LSAT so me looking all this is up is being super cautious about a BigLaw career. One of the most common pieces of advice I get is to figure out how the people doing the job you want got there, so you can put yourself in that position also... hence, me looking all this stuff up about international arbitration practices.

That's really interesting to hear. I've read a couple places that "international law doesn't exist," so it's heartening to hear your information. And yes, shoot for a 170+ LSAT and enjoy the T14

[AvatarMeelo]

Is there a list anywhere that talks about the greatest strength of each T14 school? In terms of what type of law is their "strength"? Whether that is based on professors they have or job prospects, not sure, but wondering if there's a way to figure that out. My number will get me into T14s but I'm particularly interested in Corporate Law (M&A, Securities). Any numbers or general thoughts?

I've been particularly interested in International Arbitration so my experience thusfar has been to look at the profiles of the partners of the top firms in the category. Ex. White and Case is one of the best, if not the best, for IA and NYU and Georgetown are two schools that seems to be consistently represented. But that's also true for a lot of the T14. Above the Law lists which firms pick up grads from which schools.

Keep in mind though, this is a VERY eggs in one basket sort of approach. In any case, you'd have to have amazing grades 1L in order to even secure interviews during 2L fall with the firms that have M&A and/or Securities practices (which is most of BigLaw).

What makes you say that White and Case is the best at IA? I'd imagine IA is a field that's quite difficult to get into, given that it's kind of a "glamorous" type of law that evokes images of negotiating with dignitaries, jetting to Paris, Tokyo, etc... Do you know if it's actually possible to do IA work as an associate at a biglaw firm?

Chambers put W&C in Band 1 of their Global-Wide rankings and its been my understanding that TLS trusts Chambers rankings, no? Also, in terms of difficult to get into, that's why it's an abstract goal for me rather than the ultimate one. I'd like to do it, but I'm not counting on it. As far as I can tell between those on TLS who have shared their experiences and the people I've spoken with at networking events, you'd have to make the effort to indicate you're interested in such a field.

In regards to your question about whether associate work is possible - yes, absolutely. I've only been looking at W&C as an example but they have associates at their many offices - http://www.whitecase.com/people/all/765 ... vance/desc. From what I can tell, having an interest in international work and knowing an additional language is a must.

I feel like I have to mention that I haven't even taken the LSAT so me looking all this is up is being super cautious about a BigLaw career. One of the most common pieces of advice I get is to figure out how the people doing the job you want got there, so you can put yourself in that position also... hence, me looking all this stuff up about international arbitration practices.

That's really interesting to hear. I've read a couple places that "international law doesn't exist," so it's heartening to hear your information. And yes, shoot for a 170+ LSAT and enjoy the T14

TLS in general has the aura that "international law doesn't exist" and I bet someone is going to see it and say so. I wanted to do international human rights law for a long time before I realized that's not really a thing, and if people are doing it, they're outliers. I want to stress that you should absolutely try to network and talk to people outside of this forum - the people that you want to talk to probably don't know this site exists!