Best options? Forum

[Lexaholik]

I'm not an outsider, im from Florida. I want to go to a school that places fairly well regionally (as opposed to just state the state in which the school is location. I figured Emory would be fit the bill for most of the south. Obviously t14 is the answer, but it's not in the cards for me

Given your goals you're going to have to re-take. I can't think of a law school outside of the T14 (and a few select others including like UT or Vandy) that places strongly in multiple states. If re-taking isn't possible, that's okay. Just go to a single-state powerhouse.

The biggest mistake law students with your numbers make is using US News rankings as a proxy for placement. Countless students graduate from places like Emory, Notre Dame, or GW believing that the school's reputation will help with placement outside of their primary market. It won't.

Hell, some of my classmates at my T14 (NU) struggled with finding jobs when they looked outside the midwest (e.g. SF). All the while, UC Hastings grads were taking all the other non-Biglaw jobs in SF. Even the T14 with all it's so called national reputation isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[ready2attend]

Great points all of you retake-enthusiasts. Unfortunately, you're arguing against a strawman. I'm not refuting any of your points - I literally can't take the exam again.

1) 164
2) cancel
3) 165

I choked, for different reasons on each test. And after reviewing my canceled test, I can say it would have been my best score - most likely 168-172. My PTs were always low to mid 170s, but that's water under the bridge at this point. All that matters is the score on the report.

I also can't wait until I am eligible for a 4th take, for reasons that I can explain via PM if you're that interested.

Yes, I sold myself wildly short. I know this. And it's my fault. But the retake or choose a new profession mentatlity is patently insane. I got a 165 not a 155. There's many paths to biglaw - t14 just happens to be the easiest and the one that requires you to have the least iamount of intangibles. I like to think I'm quite employable and I have very strong work experience that speaks to this. Biglaw firms are also interested in bringing on associates with a capacity for generating business, and this is something that I'm sure partners have a keen eye for. I may get less interviews than others, but mine will count.

[HonestAdvice]

Great points all of you retake-enthusiasts. Unfortunately, you're arguing against a strawman. I'm not refuting any of your points - I literally can't take the exam again.

1) 164
2) cancel
3) 165

I choked, for different reasons on each test. And after reviewing my canceled test, I can say it would have been my best score - most likely 168-172. My PTs were always low to mid 170s, but that's water under the bridge at this point. All that matters is the score on the report.

I also can't wait until I am eligible for a 4th take, for reasons that I can explain via PM if you're that interested.

Yes, I sold myself wildly short. I know this. And it's my fault. But the retake or choose a new profession mentatlity is patently insane. I got a 165 not a 155. There's many paths to biglaw - t14 just happens to be the easiest and the one that requires you to have the least iamount of intangibles. I like to think I'm quite employable and I have very strong work experience that speaks to this. Biglaw firms are also interested in bringing on associates with a capacity for generating business, and this is something that I'm sure partners have a keen eye for. I may get less interviews than others, but mine will count.

You should know you're going to have to be in the top 20% to get BL from these places, probably better, right? It is HARD to be that high up in Emory. The competitiveness at Emory will be the same as at the t-14, but you need to do much better going to Emory. If you really don't want to retake then you should go to a school you get a full ride to, and disregard the ranking, preferably a Tier 2.

You would need to be top 5% or so to have a shot, but the curve will be less competitive than the curve at Emory/UF/FSU. It's probably much easier to pull top 5% at a lower Tier 2 than top 20 at one of those schools. In addition, because it's very likely you will not get big law, the contingency has to come into play. At Emory there's an 80% chance you fail and are saddled in debt, so it pays to increase the odds of failure but decrease the debt. Going into it expecting to get a 10 or 20% result is foolish. You need to be willing to accept that you'll probably do insurance defense or something, and if you get super lucky will get what you want.

[BigZuck]

If you literally can't retake (which I don't believe, literally) then you're literally going to have to reframe your focus.

Or if you want to gamble, then gamble. YOLO my dude. It still doesn't sound like you understand how legal hiring works (you want it to work the way you think it should work, not the way it actually works). But again, you only live once. Go for it.

[Clearly]

I would like the pm as to why you can't wait till a fourth take.

[cavalier1138]

There's many paths to biglaw.

No, there are two paths:

1. Go to a T14 and don't fail out.
2. Go to any other school and place in the top of the class (how high you have to place is determined by how low-ranked the school is).

That's it. You won't get biglaw because you've got a lot of business experience. You won't get it because you have heart, moxie, spunk, or whatever it is you kids have these days. You literally will not get into OCI at some schools if you aren't at a high enough class rank, and big firms certainly won't interview you, even if you do have the chance to submit.

And no one recommending "retake or career change" is insane. Insanity would be insisting that you cannot possibly wait a year (a whole year!) to do the one thing that can actually improve your chances at the career path you want. And if you still refuse to do that, yes, you need to consider a different career path, because you won't be getting the biglaw job you think you will.

[ready2attend]

There's many paths to biglaw.

No, there are two paths:

1. Go to a T14 and don't fail out.
2. Go to any other school and place in the top of the class (how high you have to place is determined by how low-ranked the school is).

That's it. You won't get biglaw because you've got a lot of business experience. You won't get it because you have heart, moxie, spunk, or whatever it is you kids have these days. You literally will not get into OCI at some schools if you aren't at a high enough class rank, and big firms certainly won't interview you, even if you do have the chance to submit.

And no one recommending "retake or career change" is insane. Insanity would be insisting that you cannot possibly wait a year (a whole year!) to do the one thing that can actually improve your chances at the career path you want. And if you still refuse to do that, yes, you need to consider a different career path, because you won't be getting the biglaw job you think you will.

I like my chances of graduating at the top of my class no matter where I end up. My undergraduate gpa sucked because I was undisciplined and never went to class. That was 5 years ago. Since then I've been forced to develop a work ethic and have ultimately held a few prestigious positions - of of which (currently) is at one of the 4 major consulting companies that people used to say you could only break into by 1) going to an ivy or 2) being top of your class at a decent school. Sound familiar? I went to an above average school but my grades were obviously less than ideal. Yet I magically found my way in. I make great money here but I absolutely hate what I do. I want to be a lawyer, not a consultant.

Yes, there are two traditional ways into biglaw. No, there are not only two. I have a friend who was in-house counsel at a small software company in Chicago his first year out of law school; he is now at Kirkland one year later. He went to Loyola and says he was somewhere at the top 30-40% of his class.

[ready2attend]

Great points all of you retake-enthusiasts. Unfortunately, you're arguing against a strawman. I'm not refuting any of your points - I literally can't take the exam again.

1) 164
2) cancel
3) 165

I choked, for different reasons on each test. And after reviewing my canceled test, I can say it would have been my best score - most likely 168-172. My PTs were always low to mid 170s, but that's water under the bridge at this point. All that matters is the score on the report.

I also can't wait until I am eligible for a 4th take, for reasons that I can explain via PM if you're that interested.

Yes, I sold myself wildly short. I know this. And it's my fault. But the retake or choose a new profession mentatlity is patently insane. I got a 165 not a 155. There's many paths to biglaw - t14 just happens to be the easiest and the one that requires you to have the least iamount of intangibles. I like to think I'm quite employable and I have very strong work experience that speaks to this. Biglaw firms are also interested in bringing on associates with a capacity for generating business, and this is something that I'm sure partners have a keen eye for. I may get less interviews than others, but mine will count.

You should know you're going to have to be in the top 20% to get BL from these places, probably better, right? It is HARD to be that high up in Emory. The competitiveness at Emory will be the same as at the t-14, but you need to do much better going to Emory. If you really don't want to retake then you should go to a school you get a full ride to, and disregard the ranking, preferably a Tier 2.

You would need to be top 5% or so to have a shot, but the curve will be less competitive than the curve at Emory/UF/FSU. It's probably much easier to pull top 5% at a lower Tier 2 than top 20 at one of those schools. In addition, because it's very likely you will not get big law, the contingency has to come into play. At Emory there's an 80% chance you fail and are saddled in debt, so it pays to increase the odds of failure but decrease the debt. Going into it expecting to get a 10 or 20% result is foolish. You need to be willing to accept that you'll probably do insurance defense or something, and if you get super lucky will get what you want.

Yeah, this all makes sense - your points are well taken. Although do you really think the competition at FSU would be comparable to that of Emory?

[Barack O'Drama]

Yea thats cool ignore the posts about retaking.

retaking isnt an option for me.

Please explain. I've yet to hear a great reason why retaking isn't an option. Look man, I'm trying to look out for you here, as someone who sat out a year and retook, went to a good school and got a good job, while my friends (with better numbers than you) didn't, went outside the t14 and are literally striking out before my eyes. It's easy to say oh but that won't happen to me, but it does, to most of the class! I'm not telling you to climb Everest, I'm saying hit the books till December and try to do better. Applying with the Dec score isn't even late anymore, and every point is worth more.

Listen to this man, OP! Retake, retake, retake. It is always an option. Always.

[cavalier1138]

There's many paths to biglaw.

No, there are two paths:

1. Go to a T14 and don't fail out.
2. Go to any other school and place in the top of the class (how high you have to place is determined by how low-ranked the school is).

That's it. You won't get biglaw because you've got a lot of business experience. You won't get it because you have heart, moxie, spunk, or whatever it is you kids have these days. You literally will not get into OCI at some schools if you aren't at a high enough class rank, and big firms certainly won't interview you, even if you do have the chance to submit.

And no one recommending "retake or career change" is insane. Insanity would be insisting that you cannot possibly wait a year (a whole year!) to do the one thing that can actually improve your chances at the career path you want. And if you still refuse to do that, yes, you need to consider a different career path, because you won't be getting the biglaw job you think you will.

I like my chances of graduating at the top of my class no matter where I end up. My undergraduate gpa sucked because I was undisciplined and never went to class. That was 5 years ago. Since then I've been forced to develop a work ethic and have ultimately held a few prestigious positions - of of which (currently) is at one of the 4 major consulting companies that people used to say you could only break into by 1) going to an ivy or 2) being top of your class at a decent school. Sound familiar? I went to an above average school but my grades were obviously less than ideal. Yet I magically found my way in. I make great money here but I absolutely hate what I do. I want to be a lawyer, not a consultant.

Yes, there are two traditional ways into biglaw. No, there are not only two. I have a friend who was in-house counsel at a small software company in Chicago his first year out of law school; he is now at Kirkland one year later. He went to Loyola and says he was somewhere at the top 30-40% of his class.

I know a guy who won the lottery. Doesn't mean you will.

Do you actually understand why people say that you can't rely on being above the median in your class?

[BigZuck]

I liked my chances of graduating at the top of my class too. I did not graduate at the top of my class. It happens. All the time.