How Far Does Character and Fitness Go Back? Forum

[RamTitan]

I have two, but potentially three, character and fitness offenses; unfortunately, all are somewhat related.

1. In 2015 I received an open-container ticket. I paid it off, and it's no longer on my record.
2. In 2012, I got in trouble with my university for drinking in the dorms. Problem here is that I took a girl to the hospital, and we had to go through several meetings (including counseling and a drug test) before the school decided to make peace. I never was suspended.
3. This is the one I'm really asking about, as the other two I'm pretty certain I'll have to disclose. In 2009, when I was a sophomore in high school, I drank on a wrestling trip, hit my head, and started seizing. The whole wrestling team almost got kicked out of school; instead we were suspended for a couple of weeks.

So....do I need to disclose the third one? And if so, how bad does it look?

[TLSModBot]

It varies from state to state. The bar application lists what you need to disclose - generally there'll be a section on school disciplinary issues (I think high school was on mine, but college definitely was) as well as one for legal issues.

When in doubt, though, DISCLOSE. Some stupid underage non-criminal drinking shit you did as a high-schooler isn't gonna keep you from getting barred. Failing to disclose/affirmatively hiding something that IS required can.

There are people who get multiple DUIs and still pass C&F. Underage drinking, even several violations, probably isn't gonna sink ya.

[RamTitan]

So a school is unlikely to hold it against you as long as it doesn't prevent you from passing the Bar, essentially?

[MKC]

So a school is unlikely to hold it against you as long as it doesn't prevent you from passing the Bar, essentially?

A school isn't likely to hold something like that against you regardless. Pretty much the only way to get denied based on character and fitness is not to disclose something you should have disclosed. If there is even a chance one of the c&f questions applies to something in your past, you need to disclose it.

ETA: And to answer your broader "how far does it go back" question, the answer is generally 10 years, which is sometimes cut off at age 18. Each state is different though.

[Dcc617]

Is there any record of this?

ETA I ask because sometimes people get way too paranoid. Like one time some guy got questioned by his high school principal because somebody stole a book or something, and he was asking if he had to diclose because a police officer was there. So if this is just some dumb high school thing where no administrative or legal action was taken then it seems like you'd be silly to disclose, because there wouldn't be anything to disclose.

[dudders]

I wouldn't be worried about any of these (in relation to applications or the bar). The rule for all C&F stuff at any time is read the question asked carefully, answer completely and truthfully, and if in doubt, just disclose. Seriously, no one cares about any of the stuff you mentioned.

Most things will definitely require disclosure of 1 and 2. (My stupid bar application required disclosure of any written warning ever given by law enforcement, which was real fun to try to dig up lol.) I honestly don't know about high school, it'll probably depend on the specific application. (My state, for example, only asked about college and post-secondary for disciplinary stuff, but anything re: cheating, plagiarism, or academic dishonesty.) But seriously, no one cares about any of this stuff.

[MKC]

Is there any record of this?

ETA I ask because sometimes people get way too paranoid. Like one time some guy got questioned by his high school principal because somebody stole a book or something, and he was asking if he had to diclose because a police officer was there. So if this is just some dumb high school thing where no administrative or legal action was taken then it seems like you'd be silly to disclose, because there wouldn't be anything to disclose.

I doubt that any application asks about high school stuff, but he mentioned getting suspended, which means there is a record of it somewhere. If the question applies, I think he should definitely disclose it. I don't think it will regardless.

[RamTitan]

Is there any record of this?

ETA I ask because sometimes people get way too paranoid. Like one time some guy got questioned by his high school principal because somebody stole a book or something, and he was asking if he had to diclose because a police officer was there. So if this is just some dumb high school thing where no administrative or legal action was taken then it seems like you'd be silly to disclose, because there wouldn't be anything to disclose.

I'm discussing item #2 tomorrow on the phone with the school official who was in charge of the investigation and punishment. I don't even know how I would define that offense on the application, so I'm interested to hear what they have to say....this person did write me a letter of rec at one point, so I imagine it won't be anything terrible.

[SPerez]

The answer is always read the question and always err on the side of over-disclosure.

The questions asked by law schools will be slightly different from each other, and those will be different still from the question in whatever state you apply to the bar in.

I would be shocked if there is a law school in the country whose question doesn't require disclosure of 1 and 2. 3 is a maybe since it was from high school, but...

Keep in mind that the questions do not say "Is there a record of...", they ask "Did it happen?" The fact that a jurisdiction may no longer have record of something does not remove your requirement to disclose.

But seriously, no one cares about any of this stuff.

This isn't quite true. Schools aren't going to care about "small" things if they are isolated incidents. These are things like one MIP/MIC at a college frat party or a single citation for Failure to Appear.

AdComs start to get concerned where there are patterns. In OP's case, assuming they are applying K-JD (making the HS violation not THAT long ago), I would actually be concerned by the pattern of prohibited alcohol use. Three offenses are all in the same vein, drinking when/where OP wasn't supposed to be. It implies either the inability to moderate alcohol consumption or disregard for rules/laws (or both). That's not a good look. Alcohol/drug use/abuse is one of the things that law schools are particularly sensitive to. (Plagiarism/crimes of dishonesty and things that could put the student body at risk, like sexual assault, are the others.)

If your numbers already make you a borderline candidate to begin with, something like this could tip you into the WL or Deny pile.

Dean Perez
Texas Tech Law

[MKC]

2. In 2012, I got in trouble with my university for drinking in the dorms. Problem here is that I took a girl to the hospital, and we had to go through several meetings (including counseling and a drug test) before the school decided to make peace. I never was suspended.

On a side note, this is a terrible fucking policy. Punishing people when they take someone to the ER for alcohol related stuff is the worst kind of disincentive. No one should ever be weighing fear of punishment when they're deciding whether they should get someone immediate medical attention.

[RamTitan]

2. In 2012, I got in trouble with my university for drinking in the dorms. Problem here is that I took a girl to the hospital, and we had to go through several meetings (including counseling and a drug test) before the school decided to make peace. I never was suspended.

On a side note, this is a terrible fucking policy. Punishing people when they take someone to the ER for alcohol related stuff is the worst kind of disincentive. No one should ever be weighing fear of punishment when they're deciding whether they should get someone immediate medical attention.

It was terrible. Worst semester of my life. Btw, this brings up another issue I never though of:

My fraternity was disbanded after one of my pledge mates died from drinking too much (he had already activated, wasn't from hazing). I never personally got in trouble for this whatsoever, but my fraternity did lose its charter. Would that go under character and fitness?

[RamTitan]

The answer is always read the question and always err on the side of over-disclosure.

The questions asked by law schools will be slightly different from each other, and those will be different still from the question in whatever state you apply to the bar in.

I would be shocked if there is a law school in the country whose question doesn't require disclosure of 1 and 2. 3 is a maybe since it was from high school, but...

Keep in mind that the questions do not say "Is there a record of...", they ask "Did it happen?" The fact that a jurisdiction may no longer have record of something does not remove your requirement to disclose.

But seriously, no one cares about any of this stuff.

This isn't quite true. Schools aren't going to care about "small" things if they are isolated incidents. These are things like one MIP/MIC at a college frat party or a single citation for Failure to Appear.

AdComs start to get concerned where there are patterns. In OP's case, assuming they are applying K-JD (making the HS violation not THAT long ago), I would actually be concerned by the pattern of prohibited alcohol use. Three offenses are all in the same vein, drinking when/where OP wasn't supposed to be. It implies either the inability to moderate alcohol consumption or disregard for rules/laws (or both). That's not a good look. Alcohol/drug use/abuse is one of the things that law schools are particularly sensitive to. (Plagiarism/crimes of dishonesty and things that could put the student body at risk, like sexual assault, are the others.)

If your numbers already make you a borderline candidate to begin with, something like this could tip you into the WL or Deny pile.

Dean Perez
Texas Tech Law

Informative post; I am not K-JD, but I only recently graduated college (class of 2015). I was worried about the pattern as well....I guess there's nothing I can really do a this point about that. Do I write an addendum about this? I mean, I'm not sober, but I'm not a wild college frat boy anymore.

[RamTitan]

The answer is always read the question and always err on the side of over-disclosure.

The questions asked by law schools will be slightly different from each other, and those will be different still from the question in whatever state you apply to the bar in.

I would be shocked if there is a law school in the country whose question doesn't require disclosure of 1 and 2. 3 is a maybe since it was from high school, but...

Keep in mind that the questions do not say "Is there a record of...", they ask "Did it happen?" The fact that a jurisdiction may no longer have record of something does not remove your requirement to disclose.

But seriously, no one cares about any of this stuff.

This isn't quite true. Schools aren't going to care about "small" things if they are isolated incidents. These are things like one MIP/MIC at a college frat party or a single citation for Failure to Appear.

AdComs start to get concerned where there are patterns. In OP's case, assuming they are applying K-JD (making the HS violation not THAT long ago), I would actually be concerned by the pattern of prohibited alcohol use. Three offenses are all in the same vein, drinking when/where OP wasn't supposed to be. It implies either the inability to moderate alcohol consumption or disregard for rules/laws (or both). That's not a good look. Alcohol/drug use/abuse is one of the things that law schools are particularly sensitive to. (Plagiarism/crimes of dishonesty and things that could put the student body at risk, like sexual assault, are the others.)

If your numbers already make you a borderline candidate to begin with, something like this could tip you into the WL or Deny pile.

Dean Perez
Texas Tech Law

Informative post; I am not K-JD, but I only recently graduated college (class of 2015). I was worried about the pattern as well....I guess there's nothing I can really do a this point about that. Do I write an addendum about this? I mean, I'm not sober, but I'm not a wild college frat boy anymore.

Also, what if I had one of my 3 rec letters be written from the person who was in charge of the investigation? She wrote one for less than a year ago, and witnessed me become a more responsible person. The other two would be academic.

[El Pollito]

I don't see those incidents as a huge deal or a pattern. 2 sounds like you did the right thing and got burned for it.

[RamTitan]

I don't see those incidents as a huge deal or a pattern. 2 sounds like you did the right thing and got burned for it.

The Dean has scared me lol, but thank you. I feel like his assessment is particularly harsh, but I can see why people would think that and it's good to get other perspectives.

[Nachoo2019]

I don't see those incidents as a huge deal or a pattern. 2 sounds like you did the right thing and got burned for it.

The Dean has scared me lol, but thank you. I feel like his assessment is particularly harsh, but I can see why people would think that and it's good to get other perspectives.

Dean Perez is a little harsh on this one. Yes, it seems like it could be a pattern, but it's all about the adendum you write. Everyone makes mistakes. I had 2 incidents to disclose on my apps and they were both within the last 5 years(I'm k-Jd) and my cycle did not turn out any worse than my numbers predicted. In fact I think I outperformed my numbers slightly

[RamTitan]

I don't see those incidents as a huge deal or a pattern. 2 sounds like you did the right thing and got burned for it.

The Dean has scared me lol, but thank you. I feel like his assessment is particularly harsh, but I can see why people would think that and it's good to get other perspectives.

Dean Perez is a little harsh on this one. Yes, it seems like it could be a pattern, but it's all about the adendum you write. Everyone makes mistakes. I had 2 incidents to disclose on my apps and they were both within the last 5 years(I'm k-Jd) and my cycle did not turn out any worse than my numbers predicted. In fact I think I outperformed my numbers slightly

So when you fill out character and fitness, do you automatically get an adendum to write about your incidents, or is that a separate document you attach?

[Nachoo2019]

I don't see those incidents as a huge deal or a pattern. 2 sounds like you did the right thing and got burned for it.

The Dean has scared me lol, but thank you. I feel like his assessment is particularly harsh, but I can see why people would think that and it's good to get other perspectives.

Dean Perez is a little harsh on this one. Yes, it seems like it could be a pattern, but it's all about the adendum you write. Everyone makes mistakes. I had 2 incidents to disclose on my apps and they were both within the last 5 years(I'm k-Jd) and my cycle did not turn out any worse than my numbers predicted. In fact I think I outperformed my numbers slightly

So when you fill out character and fitness, do you automatically get an adendum to write about your incidents, or is that a separate document you attach?

Every app I filled out stated that an adendum explaining the incidents is required. I wrote 2-4 sentences about each incident and tried to sound apologetic but not like I was kissing ass. I could PM you mine as an example if you'd like.

[RamTitan]

I don't see those incidents as a huge deal or a pattern. 2 sounds like you did the right thing and got burned for it.

The Dean has scared me lol, but thank you. I feel like his assessment is particularly harsh, but I can see why people would think that and it's good to get other perspectives.

Dean Perez is a little harsh on this one. Yes, it seems like it could be a pattern, but it's all about the adendum you write. Everyone makes mistakes. I had 2 incidents to disclose on my apps and they were both within the last 5 years(I'm k-Jd) and my cycle did not turn out any worse than my numbers predicted. In fact I think I outperformed my numbers slightly

So when you fill out character and fitness, do you automatically get an adendum to write about your incidents, or is that a separate document you attach?

Every app I filled out stated that an adendum explaining the incidents is required. I wrote 2-4 sentences about each incident and tried to sound apologetic but not like I was kissing ass. I could PM you mine as an example if you'd like.

That'd be pretty sick if you could mate. The fact that I automatically get an opportunity to explain my actions makes me feel a lot better already.