Tier 1($) vs Tier 3($$$) Forum

[EnviroNerd]

Hey, sorry if this has been asked before but i'm having a tough time deciding where to go to law school. I want to practice environmental law (clearly from the name lol) and I narrowed my decision to Boston University, which doesn't have too much enironmental law expertise vs Pace Law school (good environmental law program). I've been told to go to the best law school i get into and that would be BU (which is ranked 20 now?) instead of focusing on speacility rankings. BU gave me 20k a year which I hope i can negotiate for a little more while Pace gave me a full tuition scholarship. I'm assuming most of you are gonna say BU? Would love some input. Thanks guysss

[SFSpartan]

Based on the information you've given, BU and it's not even close. Specialty rankings have 0 bearing on legal hiring, so you should act as if they don't exist. That said, it would be helpful to know your stats and what schools you applied to, as the most sensible course of action may be to sit out this cycle and re-apply more broadly next year.

[EnviroNerd]

Thanks for the quick response! my stats are 161/3.71. Unfortunately i am set on attending school this fall. I graduated in May of 2015 and I have been working as a environmental scientist since that summer hoping to get a year of experience before law school. So speciality rankings are really not that important?

[SFSpartan]

In that case, I have a couple bits of advice:

1. I would caution you against committing to attend school during a specific cycle. I did this and regret it, as my LSAT/GPA combo could have gotten me the same scholarship I currently have at a substantially better school (this is not personal speculation - I have friends with similar stats that got into much better schools than I did with basically the same money). This would have likely resulted in a better employment outcome for me (while my outcome wasn't bad and I certainly am not complaining, I could have gotten a better firm from a better school). This ties in with points 2 and 3.

2. You have an excellent GPA. However, your LSAT is below average for top schools. Even a raise of 5-6 points should put you in the running for lower T-14. A raise to 170 puts most non-HYS schools in play. This presents a strong case for staying out for a year (see also, point 4, as this is related to that).

3. Keep in mind that you become more attractive to employers as you gain more experience in a particular field. Therefore, staying out a year will make you a stronger candidate for jobs in the environmental field. (Again, this ties in with point 4).

4. Environmental law jobs (other than those defending corporations being sued by envrionmentalists) are extremely limited. Accordingly, you should do everything you can to make yourself as attractive to employers as you possibly can. This presents a strong case for gaining more experience and retaking/reapplying for a better school.

[BigZuck]

Speciality rankings don't matter in the slightest

BU will be too expensive at that cost, it's imperative that you retake given your GPA

[EnviroNerd]

I really wanna work for government agencies like the EPA or DOJ natural resources division. That's why I was leaning toward Pace, but am worried about the stipulation and its rank, even though its enviro program is good. I really appreciate the advice for sitting out another year but I am really set on going in fall '16. You think I will be able to negotiate more money with BU if I really express my interest in going. Should I say i recieved more money from schools (without being specific). Thanks again guys

[mornincounselor]

I really wanna work for government agencies like the EPA or DOJ natural resources division. That's why I was leaning toward Pace, but am worried about the stipulation and its rank, even though its enviro program is good. I really appreciate the advice for sitting out another year but I am really set on going in fall '16. You think I will be able to negotiate more money with BU if I really express my interest in going. Should I say i recieved more money from schools (without being specific). Thanks again guys

Lots of people want to work for these agencies. In fact, I believe many people apply for all (or, at least, a substantial number of) available agencies. The jobs are few and far between and they are competitive. As others have noted, schools only highlight "Top x Program" because they are not good overall schools. It's a marketing gimmick. It's fake, there is no such thing as a strong environmental program. Some schools might have a few more classes or a more dedicated professor BUT this does not equate to a better chance of obtaining a job in a given field.

You may be able to negotiate more money from BU if you have better offers from similar schools. But you stand to get a much better financial offer (or a much better chance of obtaining the highly sought after job you seek OR BOTH) if you allow yourself to reach your fullest potential on the LSAT.

[BigZuck]

If you want to work for agencies like that then you need to go to better schools than these. Certainly a better school than Pace.

It can't be overstated that specialty rankings don't matter and that retaking the LSAT is critical here.

Definitely retake June and see how that goes at the very least.

[Danny Mothers]

I really wanna work for government agencies like the EPA or DOJ natural resources division. That's why I was leaning toward Pace, but am worried about the stipulation and its rank, even though its enviro program is good. I really appreciate the advice for sitting out another year but I am really set on going in fall '16. You think I will be able to negotiate more money with BU if I really express my interest in going. Should I say i recieved more money from schools (without being specific). Thanks again guys

These jobs are incredibly competitive even for T14 grads. Nobody is going to care about your science background, either--they just want the best lawyer they can get. If you can't buckle down and ace the LSAT, I'd seriously doubt your ability to do well enough at BU to get a position like this. And I doubt EPA or DOJ has ever hired a Pace grad--even the valedictorians--into an Honors program.

[A. Nony Mouse]

DOJ hires from a pretty wide range of schools, actually (see https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools) -

[Danny Mothers]

DOJ hires from a pretty wide range of schools, actually (see https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools) -

Fair enough. Maybe the valedictorian has a shot.

[A. Nony Mouse]

DOJ hires from a pretty wide range of schools, actually (see https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools) -

Fair enough. Maybe the valedictorian has a shot.

Yeah, to be fair, I'm not saying the positions aren't competitive or that OP should go to Pace because of this.

[eagle2a]

Even if you're set on going this fall, study for the june lsat and retake, if you do better re-apply and get more $$$

[EnviroNerd]

Unfortunately I would have to wait till October to take it again because of the 2 year policy with multiple lsat scores . That's why I'm set on going this fall. It's been a while since I took the lsat and really would not wanna get back into it lol.

[Alive97]

It is understandably a gigantic change in mindset to change law school plans, let alone in response to Internet randos. But you need to face the financial probabilities in your future. At BU you are looking at incredible debt for a low chance of an Environmental law job (which are rare things). What if you have to take a random job in Boston for 50k/yr with a 1k/mo debt payment? That may be your most likely outcome.

[totesTheGoat]

It is understandably a gigantic change in mindset to change law school plans, let alone in response to Internet randos. But you need to face the financial probabilities in your future. At BU you are looking at incredible debt for a low chance of an Environmental law job (which are rare things). What if you have to take a random job in Boston for 50k/yr with a 1k/mo debt payment? That may be your most likely outcome.

Adding to this, Pace is a bad deal, even for free. You still have to finance your COL, which will be $50k if you're lucky. Then, you have a 40% chance of not having a full-time legal job when you graduate and only a 16% chance of making more than $55k a year coming out of school.

With a 3.71 GPA, you've gotten the hard part out of the way. If you get your LSAT score up high enough (say around a 168) to reflect your GPA, you will have a much different career trajectory ahead of you. Why make a hasty decision now that will put you in massive debt for a decade once you graduate? Why not do the prudent thing by sitting out a year and using the resources recommended on TLS to improve your LSAT score? You'll likely save hundreds of thousands of dollars when all is said and done by sitting out and focusing on boosting your LSAT.

[Tls2016]

I didn't even know there was a Pace Law School and I'm from New York. You shouldn't go there.

[lawat43]

Does it have to be BU? Plenty of schools have a good environmental program. Is there another t30 school that will offer you more money but may be a few ticks lower than BU on the rankings scale?

[EnviroNerd]

BU was the highest ranked school I got into. I got waitlisted at GW, BC and Fordham. Other schools are in the 50+ rank.

[BigZuck]

BU was the highest ranked school I got into. I got waitlisted at GW, BC and Fordham. Other schools are in the 50+ rank.

Those rankings don't matter, don't give them any weight

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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