What should my target be? Forum

[lark17]

I am not applying this cycle. I have financial concerns and my GPA is only a 3.59. Unfortunately those financial concerns meant I worked full time and attended undergrad full time. Plus, the semester my father died I did not do too well, hence the 3.59. I could not afford to take the GRE and LSAT and see where I would do better, and the GRE afforded more options based on my application. For instance, I had a 4.0 in my major courses and I felt this helped me on grad school apps.

However, I decided to take the June LSAT and apply in the fall unless I get an amazing offer from one of the grad schools I have applied to. I honestly may not even finish applying to the remaining grad schools on my list because it feels like a waste of money for programs I am not excited about. I've heard that although the GRE and LSAT are very different tests, if you did well on the GRE Verbal then you are positioned to do well on the LSAT (with lots of prep of course). I received a 161 out of 170 on the verbal and 4/6 on the writing without really any prep. I am aiming for 160-165 on the LSAT to be realistic, but would that high enough to be competitive with my GPA?

Some additional information-- I am not a racial minority. I do come from an economic background I can reference in my diversity statement. I am bisexual but would likely not reference this as I am not sure it is very helpful compared to gay or lesbian applicants. It just is not viewed the same. I am not aiming for corporate or tax law where I need to go to a top twenty school to have a future. My interest is in resource/environmental law mostly. I am also interested in labor law and intellectual property law. What is the target LSAT score for my aspirations? What are some program examples that are realistic for me as an applicant if I reach that goal? I am hoping for application fee waivers but I have to be economical about my applications if not.

[QuentonCassidy]

I am not applying this cycle. I have financial concerns and my GPA is only a 3.59. Unfortunately those financial concerns meant I worked full time and attended undergrad full time. Plus, the semester my father died I did not do too well, hence the 3.59. I could not afford to take the GRE and LSAT and see where I would do better, and the GRE afforded more options based on my application. For instance, I had a 4.0 in my major courses and I felt this helped me on grad school apps.

However, I decided to take the June LSAT and apply in the fall unless I get an amazing offer from one of the grad schools I have applied to. I honestly may not even finish applying to the remaining grad schools on my list because it feels like a waste of money for programs I am not excited about. I've heard that although the GRE and LSAT are very different tests, if you did well on the GRE Verbal then you are positioned to do well on the LSAT (with lots of prep of course). I received a 161 out of 170 on the verbal and 4/6 on the writing without really any prep. I am aiming for 160-165 on the LSAT to be realistic, but would that high enough to be competitive with my GPA?

Some additional information-- I am not a racial minority. I do come from an economic background I can reference in my diversity statement. I am bisexual but would likely not reference this as I am not sure it is very helpful compared to gay or lesbian applicants. It just is not viewed the same. I am not aiming for corporate or tax law where I need to go to a top twenty school to have a future. My interest is in resource/environmental law mostly. I am also interested in labor law and intellectual property law. What is the target LSAT score for my aspirations? What are some program examples that are realistic for me as an applicant if I reach that goal? I am hoping for application fee waivers but I have to be economical about my applications if not.

Your target score should be absolutely as high as you can possibly score. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it is true. Every extra point on the LSAT is going to help you get into a better school, and even more importantly given your background and aspirations, get more $$$. You are in a great position to do well. If you study hard and really apply yourself you are very well positioned to do well on the June LSAT, and once you have a score you can consider realistic outcomes for your cycle and whether those outcomes are worth the risk, but right now the only focus should be on scoring as high as you can on the LSAT. Best of luck to you!
ETA: I meant to mention that will help a lot with fee waivers as well. If you score highly enough on the LSAT, you will get your app fee waived at every law school in America except for HYS

[OLitch]

I am not applying this cycle. I have financial concerns and my GPA is only a 3.59. Unfortunately those financial concerns meant I worked full time and attended undergrad full time. Plus, the semester my father died I did not do too well, hence the 3.59. I could not afford to take the GRE and LSAT and see where I would do better, and the GRE afforded more options based on my application. For instance, I had a 4.0 in my major courses and I felt this helped me on grad school apps.

However, I decided to take the June LSAT and apply in the fall unless I get an amazing offer from one of the grad schools I have applied to. I honestly may not even finish applying to the remaining grad schools on my list because it feels like a waste of money for programs I am not excited about. I've heard that although the GRE and LSAT are very different tests, if you did well on the GRE Verbal then you are positioned to do well on the LSAT (with lots of prep of course). I received a 161 out of 170 on the verbal and 4/6 on the writing without really any prep. I am aiming for 160-165 on the LSAT to be realistic, but would that high enough to be competitive with my GPA?

Some additional information-- I am not a racial minority. I do come from an economic background I can reference in my diversity statement. I am bisexual but would likely not reference this as I am not sure it is very helpful compared to gay or lesbian applicants. It just is not viewed the same. I am not aiming for corporate or tax law where I need to go to a top twenty school to have a future. My interest is in resource/environmental law mostly. I am also interested in labor law and intellectual property law. What is the target LSAT score for my aspirations? What are some program examples that are realistic for me as an applicant if I reach that goal? I am hoping for application fee waivers but I have to be economical about my applications if not.

What do you really want to do for a living? Why is continuing your education so important to you? I ask because you are willing to take grad school over law school. Do you really want to practice law or is it on your short list of things you would like to do? It might be a good idea to take a break from school and get a job in your area of interest. Take a year or two to figure out exactly where you want to go in life. Solid work experience can have a positive impact on your LS package.

As far as the LSAT goes, lsac.org has a free PT that you can take. Take the test under timed conditions just to see how well you do.

Spend some time on lsac.org learning about fee waivers and the application process.

Research. Research. Research. So many people who go graduate from law school end up regretting their decision. Many of these people have regrets because they went to LS for the wrong reasons. Please, don't be one of these people.

Best of luck to you no matter what you decide!

[lark17]

I am not applying this cycle. I have financial concerns and my GPA is only a 3.59. Unfortunately those financial concerns meant I worked full time and attended undergrad full time. Plus, the semester my father died I did not do too well, hence the 3.59. I could not afford to take the GRE and LSAT and see where I would do better, and the GRE afforded more options based on my application. For instance, I had a 4.0 in my major courses and I felt this helped me on grad school apps.

However, I decided to take the June LSAT and apply in the fall unless I get an amazing offer from one of the grad schools I have applied to. I honestly may not even finish applying to the remaining grad schools on my list because it feels like a waste of money for programs I am not excited about. I've heard that although the GRE and LSAT are very different tests, if you did well on the GRE Verbal then you are positioned to do well on the LSAT (with lots of prep of course). I received a 161 out of 170 on the verbal and 4/6 on the writing without really any prep. I am aiming for 160-165 on the LSAT to be realistic, but would that high enough to be competitive with my GPA?

Some additional information-- I am not a racial minority. I do come from an economic background I can reference in my diversity statement. I am bisexual but would likely not reference this as I am not sure it is very helpful compared to gay or lesbian applicants. It just is not viewed the same. I am not aiming for corporate or tax law where I need to go to a top twenty school to have a future. My interest is in resource/environmental law mostly. I am also interested in labor law and intellectual property law. What is the target LSAT score for my aspirations? What are some program examples that are realistic for me as an applicant if I reach that goal? I am hoping for application fee waivers but I have to be economical about my applications if not.

Your target score should be absolutely as high as you can possibly score. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it is true. Every extra point on the LSAT is going to help you get into a better school, and even more importantly given your background and aspirations, get more $$$. You are in a great position to do well. If you study hard and really apply yourself you are very well positioned to do well on the June LSAT, and once you have a score you can consider realistic outcomes for your cycle and whether those outcomes are worth the risk, but right now the only focus should be on scoring as high as you can on the LSAT. Best of luck to you!
ETA: I meant to mention that will help a lot with fee waivers as well. If you score highly enough on the LSAT, you will get your app fee waived at every law school in America except for HYS

Thanks for the response. I know I should try to get as high as possible on the LSAT and that really determines schools more than anything. It's a little frightening going in to an expensive test without much of a plan for the possible score I would get back in the back of my mind. I do not want to end up being someone who goes to a very poor ranked school because they got in and refuse to find an alternate career. I'm trying to get an internship or volunteer experience this summer to boost my applications, but working 40 hours a week including some Saturdays really hinders that even if I'm only 1 year out of undergrad.

[lark17]

I am not applying this cycle. I have financial concerns and my GPA is only a 3.59. Unfortunately those financial concerns meant I worked full time and attended undergrad full time. Plus, the semester my father died I did not do too well, hence the 3.59. I could not afford to take the GRE and LSAT and see where I would do better, and the GRE afforded more options based on my application. For instance, I had a 4.0 in my major courses and I felt this helped me on grad school apps.

However, I decided to take the June LSAT and apply in the fall unless I get an amazing offer from one of the grad schools I have applied to. I honestly may not even finish applying to the remaining grad schools on my list because it feels like a waste of money for programs I am not excited about. I've heard that although the GRE and LSAT are very different tests, if you did well on the GRE Verbal then you are positioned to do well on the LSAT (with lots of prep of course). I received a 161 out of 170 on the verbal and 4/6 on the writing without really any prep. I am aiming for 160-165 on the LSAT to be realistic, but would that high enough to be competitive with my GPA?

Some additional information-- I am not a racial minority. I do come from an economic background I can reference in my diversity statement. I am bisexual but would likely not reference this as I am not sure it is very helpful compared to gay or lesbian applicants. It just is not viewed the same. I am not aiming for corporate or tax law where I need to go to a top twenty school to have a future. My interest is in resource/environmental law mostly. I am also interested in labor law and intellectual property law. What is the target LSAT score for my aspirations? What are some program examples that are realistic for me as an applicant if I reach that goal? I am hoping for application fee waivers but I have to be economical about my applications if not.

What do you really want to do for a living? Why is continuing your education so important to you? I ask because you are willing to take grad school over law school. Do you really want to practice law or is it on your short list of things you would like to do? It might be a good idea to take a break from school and get a job in your area of interest. Take a year or two to figure out exactly where you want to go in life. Solid work experience can have a positive impact on your LS package.

As far as the LSAT goes, lsac.org has a free PT that you can take. Take the test under timed conditions just to see how well you do.

Spend some time on lsac.org learning about fee waivers and the application process.

Research. Research. Research. So many people who go graduate from law school end up regretting their decision. Many of these people have regrets because they went to LS for the wrong reasons. Please, don't be one of these people.

Best of luck to you no matter what you decide!

Thanks for taking time to respond. I will definitely take timed practice tests to register my base line. I am also definitely trying to do my research. As a history undergrad, research is one thing I am definitely good at. To your other point, I really applied to grad schools out of fear. Law school was really what I wanted to apply to, but all the negatives scared me. I watched my father go from a top project manager at GE, to a smaller firm to be closer to home, and then get laid off after 9/11 when the small business went under. He did not get a job in the field for an entire decade until he died. A friend of mine did not get in to any of his target med schools and is now going to a for profit school taking out way too much debt for his realistic job prospects. The idea of failing with debt absolutely terrifies me, but I keep coming back to law. I applied to library science and historic preservation programs, but the job prospects are not much better than law and I don't feel like those careers will make me as happy since I do not have a passion for them. I would really only even consider it if I got a full tuition waver plus a stipend but I do not think I could make the jump to accept an offer even if that happened, and I feel that is really telling that I was applying to grad school for the wrong reasons-- it being a safer option in this instance.

EDIT: Also the problem with taking time off to work in a related job, is getting the job. As someone who helped my supervisor wade through applications, I was told to toss any without experience in the field I'm in now. Without internships under my belt, I'm not sure getting my foot in the door is an option. That was the reason I took one year off actually but I'm still in my same job.

[A. Nony Mouse]

FWIW, I don't think library science or historic preservation have better job markets than law at all.

And you don't go into the test without a plan for your possible score in the back of your mind. That possible score should be 180. You also prep regularly and consistently, including taking practice tests so that you can see what score range you're capable of. People going into the test having taken ~40 practice tests have a pretty clear sense of what kind of score they can get. Whether they get that score on test day depends, but they're not going in blind.

If you're working I'm not sure why you need an internship/volunteer experience. It's useful to help you determine whether you'd enjoy/be good at practice, and it's not going to hurt you of course, but it's not necessary to get into school.

[KissMyAxe]

Op, I had a very similar story getting to where I am now. Our numbers are different, but I still might be able to help you a bit. PM me.

[ouais_ouais]

I am not applying this cycle. I have financial concerns and my GPA is only a 3.59. Unfortunately those financial concerns meant I worked full time and attended undergrad full time. Plus, the semester my father died I did not do too well, hence the 3.59. I could not afford to take the GRE and LSAT and see where I would do better, and the GRE afforded more options based on my application. For instance, I had a 4.0 in my major courses and I felt this helped me on grad school apps.

However, I decided to take the June LSAT and apply in the fall unless I get an amazing offer from one of the grad schools I have applied to. I honestly may not even finish applying to the remaining grad schools on my list because it feels like a waste of money for programs I am not excited about. I've heard that although the GRE and LSAT are very different tests, if you did well on the GRE Verbal then you are positioned to do well on the LSAT (with lots of prep of course). I received a 161 out of 170 on the verbal and 4/6 on the writing without really any prep. I am aiming for 160-165 on the LSAT to be realistic, but would that high enough to be competitive with my GPA?

Some additional information-- I am not a racial minority. I do come from an economic background I can reference in my diversity statement. I am bisexual but would likely not reference this as I am not sure it is very helpful compared to gay or lesbian applicants. It just is not viewed the same. I am not aiming for corporate or tax law where I need to go to a top twenty school to have a future. My interest is in resource/environmental law mostly. I am also interested in labor law and intellectual property law. What is the target LSAT score for my aspirations? What are some program examples that are realistic for me as an applicant if I reach that goal? I am hoping for application fee waivers but I have to be economical about my applications if not.

What do you really want to do for a living? Why is continuing your education so important to you? I ask because you are willing to take grad school over law school. Do you really want to practice law or is it on your short list of things you would like to do? It might be a good idea to take a break from school and get a job in your area of interest. Take a year or two to figure out exactly where you want to go in life. Solid work experience can have a positive impact on your LS package.

As far as the LSAT goes, lsac.org has a free PT that you can take. Take the test under timed conditions just to see how well you do.

Spend some time on lsac.org learning about fee waivers and the application process.

Research. Research. Research. So many people who go graduate from law school end up regretting their decision. Many of these people have regrets because they went to LS for the wrong reasons. Please, don't be one of these people.

Best of luck to you no matter what you decide!

Thanks for taking time to respond. I will definitely take timed practice tests to register my base line. I am also definitely trying to do my research. As a history undergrad, research is one thing I am definitely good at. To your other point, I really applied to grad schools out of fear. Law school was really what I wanted to apply to, but all the negatives scared me. I watched my father go from a top project manager at GE, to a smaller firm to be closer to home, and then get laid off after 9/11 when the small business went under. He did not get a job in the field for an entire decade until he died. A friend of mine did not get in to any of his target med schools and is now going to a for profit school taking out way too much debt for his realistic job prospects. The idea of failing with debt absolutely terrifies me, but I keep coming back to law. I applied to library science and historic preservation programs, but the job prospects are not much better than law and I don't feel like those careers will make me as happy since I do not have a passion for them. I would really only even consider it if I got a full tuition waver plus a stipend but I do not think I could make the jump to accept an offer even if that happened, and I feel that is really telling that I was applying to grad school for the wrong reasons-- it being a safer option in this instance.

EDIT: Also the problem with taking time off to work in a related job, is getting the job. As someone who helped my supervisor wade through applications, I was told to toss any without experience in the field I'm in now. Without internships under my belt, I'm not sure getting my foot in the door is an option. That was the reason I took one year off actually but I'm still in my same job.

I know a lot of people who have gotten degrees in library science. They would all tell you not to do this. Particularly if you're not passionate for it. This is a dying field. Many of the positions are still held by old ladies who refuse to retire and refuse to utilize technology to their advantage.

You will also likely need to take out a bit of debt (nowhere near law school) for poor job prospects in a field you're not even sure if you want.

I agree with Litch that you should probably take some time off before graduate school of any kind if you're on the fence about your future. My dream job at 22 was very different than it is now and had I gone straight into graduate school I would have still changed my mind, but had a lot more debt.

[jrass]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

[lark17]

FWIW, I don't think library science or historic preservation have better job markets than law at all.

And you don't go into the test without a plan for your possible score in the back of your mind. That possible score should be 180. You also prep regularly and consistently, including taking practice tests so that you can see what score range you're capable of. People going into the test having taken ~40 practice tests have a pretty clear sense of what kind of score they can get. Whether they get that score on test day depends, but they're not going in blind.

If you're working I'm not sure why you need an internship/volunteer experience. It's useful to help you determine whether you'd enjoy/be good at practice, and it's not going to hurt you of course, but it's not necessary to get into school.

I am not applying this cycle. I have financial concerns and my GPA is only a 3.59. Unfortunately those financial concerns meant I worked full time and attended undergrad full time. Plus, the semester my father died I did not do too well, hence the 3.59. I could not afford to take the GRE and LSAT and see where I would do better, and the GRE afforded more options based on my application. For instance, I had a 4.0 in my major courses and I felt this helped me on grad school apps.

However, I decided to take the June LSAT and apply in the fall unless I get an amazing offer from one of the grad schools I have applied to. I honestly may not even finish applying to the remaining grad schools on my list because it feels like a waste of money for programs I am not excited about. I've heard that although the GRE and LSAT are very different tests, if you did well on the GRE Verbal then you are positioned to do well on the LSAT (with lots of prep of course). I received a 161 out of 170 on the verbal and 4/6 on the writing without really any prep. I am aiming for 160-165 on the LSAT to be realistic, but would that high enough to be competitive with my GPA?

Some additional information-- I am not a racial minority. I do come from an economic background I can reference in my diversity statement. I am bisexual but would likely not reference this as I am not sure it is very helpful compared to gay or lesbian applicants. It just is not viewed the same. I am not aiming for corporate or tax law where I need to go to a top twenty school to have a future. My interest is in resource/environmental law mostly. I am also interested in labor law and intellectual property law. What is the target LSAT score for my aspirations? What are some program examples that are realistic for me as an applicant if I reach that goal? I am hoping for application fee waivers but I have to be economical about my applications if not.

What do you really want to do for a living? Why is continuing your education so important to you? I ask because you are willing to take grad school over law school. Do you really want to practice law or is it on your short list of things you would like to do? It might be a good idea to take a break from school and get a job in your area of interest. Take a year or two to figure out exactly where you want to go in life. Solid work experience can have a positive impact on your LS package.

As far as the LSAT goes, lsac.org has a free PT that you can take. Take the test under timed conditions just to see how well you do.

Spend some time on lsac.org learning about fee waivers and the application process.

Research. Research. Research. So many people who go graduate from law school end up regretting their decision. Many of these people have regrets because they went to LS for the wrong reasons. Please, don't be one of these people.

Best of luck to you no matter what you decide!

Thanks for taking time to respond. I will definitely take timed practice tests to register my base line. I am also definitely trying to do my research. As a history undergrad, research is one thing I am definitely good at. To your other point, I really applied to grad schools out of fear. Law school was really what I wanted to apply to, but all the negatives scared me. I watched my father go from a top project manager at GE, to a smaller firm to be closer to home, and then get laid off after 9/11 when the small business went under. He did not get a job in the field for an entire decade until he died. A friend of mine did not get in to any of his target med schools and is now going to a for profit school taking out way too much debt for his realistic job prospects. The idea of failing with debt absolutely terrifies me, but I keep coming back to law. I applied to library science and historic preservation programs, but the job prospects are not much better than law and I don't feel like those careers will make me as happy since I do not have a passion for them. I would really only even consider it if I got a full tuition waver plus a stipend but I do not think I could make the jump to accept an offer even if that happened, and I feel that is really telling that I was applying to grad school for the wrong reasons-- it being a safer option in this instance.

EDIT: Also the problem with taking time off to work in a related job, is getting the job. As someone who helped my supervisor wade through applications, I was told to toss any without experience in the field I'm in now. Without internships under my belt, I'm not sure getting my foot in the door is an option. That was the reason I took one year off actually but I'm still in my same job.

I know a lot of people who have gotten degrees in library science. They would all tell you not to do this. Particularly if you're not passionate for it. This is a dying field. Many of the positions are still held by old ladies who refuse to retire and refuse to utilize technology to their advantage.

You will also likely need to take out a bit of debt (nowhere near law school) for poor job prospects in a field you're not even sure if you want.

I agree with Litch that you should probably take some time off before graduate school of any kind if you're on the fence about your future. My dream job at 22 was very different than it is now and had I gone straight into graduate school I would have still changed my mind, but had a lot more debt.

I do know two people with MLIS degrees. One working in the field and one not. I've only applied to one program, and I'm not likely to apply to any others. I couldn't really come up with a personal statement which was telling. I'm a year out of undergrad and if I apply to law school next cycle, I wouldn't be locked in to enter a program until a little over a year from now. I don't want to push back entering a program until 2018. I feel like I have no purpose right now and another 2 years of that would be awful. I've always wanted to go into law. If risk was no consideration, it's what I would do. If money was no consideration, I'd probably be a student forever. If I wait to apply until fall of 2017 instead of 2016, I'll be 25 when I enter a program as I'm 23 now. I'm also not sure I those years would be useful if I'm just working my same job in the same field.

And to Mouse: I feel an internship is needed because I am working an admin job that is not at anywhere directly related to my career goals. While holding a job looks good, I think additional related experience would benefit my application. Is this incorrect?

[lymenheimer]

And to Mouse: I feel an internship is needed because I am working an admin job that is not at anywhere directly related to my career goals. While holding a job looks good, I think additional related experience would benefit my application. Is this incorrect?

GPA+LSAT benefit your application. Working a job paints you as a non-bum. Work whatever job you want. It doesn't matter. People suggest legal work (paralegal, etc) to encourage people to get exposure before committing to the occupation. But it doesn't matter what you do. I've done administrative stuff for the past 3 years (2 yrs as intern through UG) and I've been accepted to places where my numbers are competitive.

[lark17]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

[lymenheimer]

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

This is when you do your research thing...Look at the ABA 509 report for the school. It tells you employment percentages, bar passage rates, etc.

[lark17]

And to Mouse: I feel an internship is needed because I am working an admin job that is not at anywhere directly related to my career goals. While holding a job looks good, I think additional related experience would benefit my application. Is this incorrect?

GPA+LSAT benefit your application. Working a job paints you as a non-bum. Work whatever job you want. It doesn't matter. People suggest legal work (paralegal, etc) to encourage people to get exposure before committing to the occupation. But it doesn't matter what you do. I've done administrative stuff for the past 3 years (2 yrs as intern through UG) and I've been accepted to places where my numbers are competitive.

Thanks. That makes me feel a bit more secure in my experience. I only have one EC plus my admin job. But through my EC I've been invited to speak at 3 conferences. I worry about being competitive with students who did not need to work during UG and have 5+ related internships or volunteer experiences but equal numbers.

[lark17]

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

This is when you do your research thing...Look at the ABA 509 report for the school. It tells you employment percentages, bar passage rates, etc.

Very true, but numbers don't always show the full picture. Lewis and Clark has a top ranked environmental program but also has a 30 something employment percentage and 80 something bar passage rates. Looking at numbers, it's probably around 100 for rank but the program has benefits if you know you want environmental law. Numbers are very important, but I try to look at the opportunities each program offers as well.

[jrass]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

You won't get them. Law school grades are used a proxy for aptitude, but you're going to be largely dependent on your employer to teach you what you're doing. Nobody cares what classes you take, because they're all just an academic enterprise with little to no real life applicability.

Comparing L&C and B in this context would be like comparing the pizza at a hole in the wall pizza shop to the pizza at a 5-star Italian restaurant. If both pizzas were the same price, the vast majority of people would opt for the 5-star restaurant. It's possible the hole in the wall makes better pizza, but that doesn't really matter because the 5-star place will put them out of business. From an employer's perspective, your hole in the wall pizza and a random 5 star restaurants pizza are the same price.

[lark17]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

You won't get them. Law school grades are used a proxy for aptitude, but you're going to be largely dependent on your employer to teach you what you're doing. Comparing L&C and B in this context would be like comparing the pizza at a hole in the wall pizza shop to the pizza at a 5-star Italian restaurant. If both pizzas were the same price, the vast majority of people would opt for the 5-star restaurant. It's possible the hole in the wall makes better pizza, but that doesn't really matter because the 5-star place will put them out of business.

Hence the 30 percent job rate for L&C while somehow being one of the best schools for environmental law?

[lymenheimer]

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

This is when you do your research thing...Look at the ABA 509 report for the school. It tells you employment percentages, bar passage rates, etc.

Very true, but numbers don't always show the full picture. Lewis and Clark has a top ranked environmental program but also has a 30 something employment percentage and 80 something bar passage rates. Looking at numbers, it's probably around 100 for rank but the program has benefits if you know you want environmental law. Numbers are very important, but I try to look at the opportunities each program offers as well.

ETA: looked at L&C 509...They employ just over half of their class in FT/LT JD required positions. Those odds aren't that great. Also...lol at specialty rankings

[jrass]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

You won't get them. Law school grades are used a proxy for aptitude, but you're going to be largely dependent on your employer to teach you what you're doing. Comparing L&C and B in this context would be like comparing the pizza at a hole in the wall pizza shop to the pizza at a 5-star Italian restaurant. If both pizzas were the same price, the vast majority of people would opt for the 5-star restaurant. It's possible the hole in the wall makes better pizza, but that doesn't really matter because the 5-star place will put them out of business.

Hence the 30 percent job rate for L&C while somehow being one of the best schools for environmental law?

It's not dictated by employment statistics. Any law school could boost its specialty rankings by simply investing more capital in a given subject. Employment #'s are much more difficult to improve because you can't just throw money at somebody, and increase your federal clerkship figures by 10%. This is a large part of why specialty rankings are a meaningless construct. They're just a smoke screen like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

[lark17]

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

This is when you do your research thing...Look at the ABA 509 report for the school. It tells you employment percentages, bar passage rates, etc.

Very true, but numbers don't always show the full picture. Lewis and Clark has a top ranked environmental program but also has a 30 something employment percentage and 80 something bar passage rates. Looking at numbers, it's probably around 100 for rank but the program has benefits if you know you want environmental law. Numbers are very important, but I try to look at the opportunities each program offers as well.

If L&C only have 30% of their students employed, that should tell you more than you need to know about the school.

Sorry, this number is actually 80%. I just double checked. That's what I get for responding to messages on my phone while I'm in the process of packing and moving.

[lymenheimer]

Sorry, this number is actually 80%. I just double checked. That's what I get for responding to messages on my phone while I'm in the process of packing and moving.

Check the 509. It breaks down by type of employment. Just edited my comment above. It's 52% chance you'll be employed in a FT/LT JD required position. So...Just over a coin flip's chance you'll be a practicing lawyer.

[lark17]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

You won't get them. Law school grades are used a proxy for aptitude, but you're going to be largely dependent on your employer to teach you what you're doing. Comparing L&C and B in this context would be like comparing the pizza at a hole in the wall pizza shop to the pizza at a 5-star Italian restaurant. If both pizzas were the same price, the vast majority of people would opt for the 5-star restaurant. It's possible the hole in the wall makes better pizza, but that doesn't really matter because the 5-star place will put them out of business.

Hence the 30 percent job rate for L&C while somehow being one of the best schools for environmental law?

It's not dictated by employment statistics. Any law school could boost its specialty rankings by simply investing more capital in a given subject. Employment #'s are much more difficult to improve because you can't just throw money at somebody, and increase your federal clerkship figures by 10%. This is a large part of why specialty rankings are a meaningless construct. They're just a smoke screen like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

Good to know. Thanks for the advice. So if I want environmental law, look at the school numbers overall first and not necessarily the best school rank for environmental law. This is the general consensous?

[lark17]

Sorry, this number is actually 80%. I just double checked. That's what I get for responding to messages on my phone while I'm in the process of packing and moving.

Check the 509. It breaks down by type of employment. Just edited my comment above. It's 52% chance you'll be employed in a FT/LT JD required position. So...Just over a coin flip's chance you'll be a practicing lawyer.

Not good odds for sure.

[jrass]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

You won't get them. Law school grades are used a proxy for aptitude, but you're going to be largely dependent on your employer to teach you what you're doing. Comparing L&C and B in this context would be like comparing the pizza at a hole in the wall pizza shop to the pizza at a 5-star Italian restaurant. If both pizzas were the same price, the vast majority of people would opt for the 5-star restaurant. It's possible the hole in the wall makes better pizza, but that doesn't really matter because the 5-star place will put them out of business.

Hence the 30 percent job rate for L&C while somehow being one of the best schools for environmental law?

It's not dictated by employment statistics. Any law school could boost its specialty rankings by simply investing more capital in a given subject. Employment #'s are much more difficult to improve because you can't just throw money at somebody, and increase your federal clerkship figures by 10%. This is a large part of why specialty rankings are a meaningless construct. They're just a smoke screen like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

Good to know. Thanks for the advice. So if I want environmental law, look at the school numbers overall first and not necessarily the best school rank for environmental law. This is the general consensous?

The specialty rankings shouldn't be any factor at all. Oregon is one of the most beautiful states in the country, and the average person who moves out there is likely to care more about the environment than the average American. The environmental law focus is there to attract you, not employers. I'd be surprised if more than 1% of environmental law employers could name the top 5 environmental law programs in the country.

[lark17]

The kinds of jobs you're interested in are all going to be competitive. Tax and corporate are prominent in big law, but if you drive through any county in the country you're sure to find some solo or small firm that practices in these areas. It's much less likely you'll find anything like environmental law outside of a large firm or regulatory agency. In addition, not everyone is motivated by money and there are plenty of people who would be happy making half the salary practicing in these areas.

Thanks for the response. That is an additional consideration regarding environmental law. I have also noticed some of the top environmental law schools do not rank great overall, like Lewis and Clark in OR. It is definitely my highest area of interest, especially water law. Of course there are schools like Berkley, but do you have any thoughts on programs like Lewis and Clark and coming out of them and competing for jobs?

You won't get them. Law school grades are used a proxy for aptitude, but you're going to be largely dependent on your employer to teach you what you're doing. Comparing L&C and B in this context would be like comparing the pizza at a hole in the wall pizza shop to the pizza at a 5-star Italian restaurant. If both pizzas were the same price, the vast majority of people would opt for the 5-star restaurant. It's possible the hole in the wall makes better pizza, but that doesn't really matter because the 5-star place will put them out of business.

Hence the 30 percent job rate for L&C while somehow being one of the best schools for environmental law?

It's not dictated by employment statistics. Any law school could boost its specialty rankings by simply investing more capital in a given subject. Employment #'s are much more difficult to improve because you can't just throw money at somebody, and increase your federal clerkship figures by 10%. This is a large part of why specialty rankings are a meaningless construct. They're just a smoke screen like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

Good to know. Thanks for the advice. So if I want environmental law, look at the school numbers overall first and not necessarily the best school rank for environmental law. This is the general consensous?

The specialty rankings shouldn't be any factor at all. Oregon is one of the most beautiful states in the country, and the average person who moves out there is likely to care more about the environment than the average American. The environmental law focus is there to attract you, not employers. I'd be surprised if more than 1% of environmental law employers could name the top 5 environmental law programs in the country.

So even if environmental law is not a specialty at a program you would advise applying there if my numbers are good enough and their numbers are good?

Edit: And this would not exclude a future in environmental law of course.