Legal Market Getting Worse Forum

[Picard777]

Everyone,

I'm writing this to let you know the legal market is getting much worse for the typical lawyer out there. When I started in 2008 I could easily get 2500 retainers and people were willing to pay for your services, and still had a small modicum of respect for lawyers. Now, all the Bar Associations are trying to license LLLTs and others who are not attorneys, to fill out forms and provide legal advice to people without being lawyers. Also, it's much easier for people to file paperwork in the Courts, since most of them have switched to e-filing. Most don't even bother calling lawyers anymore but simply fill out forms online to file what they need with the Court. Most consider lawyers to be scam artists and not worth the money.

As a result, good luck getting a job, as there aren't any. Further, good luck if you try to start your own practice to get anywhere. I made pretty good money in 2008, but now I'm lucky to get someone to pay me a few hundred dollars. It really has gotten that much worse in 10 years. Please do yourself a favor and do not make the same mistake I made.

[Stardust84]

Everyone,

I'm writing this to let you know the legal market is getting much worse for the typical lawyer out there. When I started in 2008 I could easily get 2500 retainers and people were willing to pay for your services, and still had a small modicum of respect for lawyers. Now, all the Bar Associations are trying to license LLLTs and others who are not attorneys, to fill out forms and provide legal advice to people without being lawyers. Also, it's much easier for people to file paperwork in the Courts, since most of them have switched to e-filing. Most don't even bother calling lawyers anymore but simply fill out forms online to file what they need with the Court. Most consider lawyers to be scam artists and not worth the money.

As a result, good luck getting a job, as there aren't any. Further, good luck if you try to start your own practice to get anywhere. I made pretty good money in 2008, but now I'm lucky to get someone to pay me a few hundred dollars. It really has gotten that much worse in 10 years. Please do yourself a favor and do not make the same mistake I made.

Ahh sour grapes, point taken that the legal market is changing that is well founded. However your anecdotes don't characterize an entire legal market. LLLTs are not equivalent and the implementation of them in the industry is meant to fill a gap that actually exists. Similarly Nurse practitioners didn't spell the end of the market for MDs. The problem is there are too many attorneys. Unfortunately its sounds like you turned out to be one of the too many.

[Stardust84]

Everyone,

I'm writing this to let you know the legal market is getting much worse for the typical lawyer out there. When I started in 2008 I could easily get 2500 retainers and people were willing to pay for your services, and still had a small modicum of respect for lawyers. Now, all the Bar Associations are trying to license LLLTs and others who are not attorneys, to fill out forms and provide legal advice to people without being lawyers. Also, it's much easier for people to file paperwork in the Courts, since most of them have switched to e-filing. Most don't even bother calling lawyers anymore but simply fill out forms online to file what they need with the Court. Most consider lawyers to be scam artists and not worth the money.

As a result, good luck getting a job, as there aren't any. Further, good luck if you try to start your own practice to get anywhere. I made pretty good money in 2008, but now I'm lucky to get someone to pay me a few hundred dollars. It really has gotten that much worse in 10 years. Please do yourself a favor and do not make the same mistake I made.

Ahh sour grapes, point taken that the legal market is changing, that is well founded. However your anecdotes don't characterize an entire legal market. LLLTs are not equivalent and the implementation of them in the industry is meant to fill a gap that actually exists. Similarly Nurse practitioners didn't spell the end of the market for MDs. The problem is there are too many attorneys. Unfortunately its sounds like you turned out to be one of the too many.

[bearsfan23]

Everyone,

I'm writing this to let you know the legal market is getting much worse for the typical lawyer out there. When I started in 2008 I could easily get 2500 retainers and people were willing to pay for your services, and still had a small modicum of respect for lawyers. Now, all the Bar Associations are trying to license LLLTs and others who are not attorneys, to fill out forms and provide legal advice to people without being lawyers. Also, it's much easier for people to file paperwork in the Courts, since most of them have switched to e-filing. Most don't even bother calling lawyers anymore but simply fill out forms online to file what they need with the Court. Most consider lawyers to be scam artists and not worth the money.

As a result, good luck getting a job, as there aren't any. Further, good luck if you try to start your own practice to get anywhere. I made pretty good money in 2008, but now I'm lucky to get someone to pay me a few hundred dollars. It really has gotten that much worse in 10 years. Please do yourself a favor and do not make the same mistake I made.

So you're a failure and you blame it on the "legal market"?

I have zero sympathy for you. Making a "sky is falling" post based on a personal anecdote is just pathetic

[Picard777]

Nope, I'm not a failure, and to assume such makes you very presumptuous and probably prone to failure yourself. I simply said it is MUCH MUCH harder now to succeed as a lawyer. If you want to start your own practice, you're going to need to do alot of work for a few hundred dollars, and you will be lucky to even pay overhead the first few months. Back in the day I could get thousands of dollars in retainers. But now, that is no longer possible.

It has nothing to do with me. If you want to live in a delusionary world, see for yourself. This isn't the 80s or even the 2000s anymore kids. Good luck.

[Picard777]

No one wants or needs lawyers in their minds anymore. You won't get a job. All of you who go to T14 will have only a 10% chance of actually making partner at Biglaw. After that, you will be thrown to the wolves like everyone else. Not a great way to restart your career in your 30s.

[Picard777]

When I started advertising yellowpages still worked, you could get decent cases. After that was Google adwords. Good luck with that anymore at $100 a click! Don't be foolish- DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL.

[lacrossebrother]

What kind of law do you practice and why is your practice at all affected by ability of people to file forms?

[Picard777]

I practice in every area, and I do it well. I've tried all kinds of cases and won excellent settlements and judgments for my clients. I LITIGATE AND DO TRIAL WORK. Yet, it still doesn't matter. More and more the people that come in for their FREE consultation (yes you must now always do FREE consultations, back in the day, before even I was a lawyer, people would PAY even for the initial consultation) ask us to just help them "behind the scenes" and "fill out forms" because they THINK they can do it themselves. There are now so many programs from the Courthouses and online to cause people to believe they can do it themselves, that the THINK they can, even if wiser people know they cannot. As a result, they decide not to retain you, and they mess up their lives even more than they were before.

The elites LOVE this, because if there are less annoying Plaintiff's side lawyers doing things for clients, then they get to win more and more of their cases. So it's a win win for them, hence all the latest anti-lawyer reforms that have been taking place.

Also, add the CRAP economy since 2008, and you have a perfect recipe for disaster, and don't think the economy will get better anytime soon. We are overspent, the US government owes trillions to the Federal Reserve and China. Boom times for USA are over absent a miracle.

[lacrossebrother]

Post your website.

[Picard777]

No, I'm already doing you a favor by telling you what will likely happen if you go to law school. I have no desire to reveal who I am. This is an anonymous forum and I will remain so like all of you here. Please really think hard before you go, this is no longer a walk in the park even compared to 10 years ago. You can quote retainers of a few hundred dollars and now most people still will not pay it, instead they will go to a paralegal not realizing they are walking into total disaster for the rest of their lives. The Bar Associations no longer enforce the unlicensed practice of law.

There are no jobs in factories anymore in America, which means basically there are no jobs. 30% of my clients do not even have employment and they have family members pay for their services. 40% are middle class, and 20% are upper middle class. The ones who are middle class think they can do it all themselves. Those who are upper middle class are usually the easiest to work with, but they are few and far between, and you have to spend a great deal on advertising to get them to come in the door, absent other connections (which I do have).

Don't believe the hype that unemployment has dropped again. Labor force participation is the lowest since the 70s, before women started working more. Please wake up. It's better for you to go into something like engineering or math related, especially if you are a female, as there are so few female engineers most companies would take you on affirmative action alone.

[lacrossebrother]

Thanks for the favor. Do you think that a significant number of people on this forum actually want to become plaintiff side lawyers ...especially in small or solo shops? What percent of your cases should actually be litigated? What did Jesus say? If a dude sues you for your shirt, just give him it and your coat too because he's such a prick to sue in the first place that he could really probably benefit from your coat too?

[Picard777]

Yeah, and there are fewer DEFENSE lawyer jobs as well moron, because there are fewer Plaintiff's lawyers. If Plaintiff's lawyers can't get clients, defense attorneys don't need to defend as much! All employment among all lawyers has declined. Have you read the news!? You think you will make partner at Biglaw? Good luck! How much do you want to bet? The odds are VASTLY against you. Only 10% of T14 lawyers will make partner at biglaw. Being an associate for 5 years doesn't count, you're just a robot worker that will be thrown in the street like everyone else.

[lacrossebrother]

What law school did you go to

Do use capital letters for emphasis in your legal writing or is it just a trait you appropriated for Internet writing to help people queue in quickly on your lack of intelligence?

[fats provolone]

10%

[Picard777]

You don't get it lacrossebrother, I've been in the legal market. It doesn't matter what law school you went to UNLESS it is Harvard or Yale. T14 doesn't matter. I know someone who went to Vanderbilt, same situation. Another went to UPenn, same situation. Everyone is in the same situation. A few are lucky to be associates for 10 years, then get thrown out for the scraps. The scraps used to be good, you could make really good money. Now, that is no longer the case. There is no middle class anymore. I doubt you come from extremely wealthy parents, which makes you upper middle class at best. Don't expect to do as well as your parents. You aren't as good as you think you are. Nobody gives a shit what law school you went to unless it's a large Fortune 500 company wanting only Harvard or Yale grads. And again, your chances of making partner at biglaw are zilch, even from T14. You'll learn that soon for yourself little guy. You are a peon.

[instride91]

This thread is quite entertaining. Please continue.

[Nekrowizard]

Stanford confirmed to STTTanford.

[Picard777]

Anyone who wants advice and details on what the REAL WORLD will be like when you graduate, send me your questions in private message. I don't mince the truth, I tell it like it really is.

[lacrossebrother]

If you are not gonna post your website, can we at least see pictures of your fat wife?

[Picard777]

No but I'll take some pictures of your fat ass, because it's clear that fat ass sits in your chair all day posting on this forum. 4000 posts? Do you have a life?

[pleadthafif]

Post removed...

[barkschool]

Pretty sure half of this guys material is copy pasta from RNC debate

[TLSModBot]

The legal market is getting worse but OP's posting style and reliance on anecdotes is sad (in both that it's woefully unhelpful and a depressing personal narrative).

Trying to pick apart the truth from the anecdote/exaggeration:

The legal market IS contracting - legal tasks that were once bespoke are becoming commodities, and from there being automated or performed by non-lawyers (see form-drafting/completion, discovery work, and even contract analysis). Richard Susskind's Tomorrow's Lawyers, for all it's faults, does a pretty decent job at the high-level explaining this 'devolution' of legal services.

On top of that, the law school model is built (and priced) more generally on creating lawyers for biglaw/midlaw, and the market is overall shrinking there as well for the reasons above and more (work going in-house, for example). Combine that with the fact that there are just too many law schools and new lawyers entering each year and you have a very bleak legal market no matter what legal career you're trying to pursue.

If you want to do solo work (and take this with a grain of salt because I'm going biglaw), if you go to a cheap but good regional school (or go on scholarship), work your ass off to make connections (find mentors, participate in bar organizations/CLEs, etc.), then you might just make a decent living. You might do very well for yourself even.

The real challenge in the 21st century is delivering legal services to lower-income demographic while still turning a profit - there is a huge untapped demand for legal help for those who can't currently pay most lawyer's rates.

[Picard777]

I made it, but maybe not for much longer if things keep getting worse. Most of my colleagues did not make it. I made it because I worked and did very little else in my life. Only one real vacation in ten years, working 16 hour days and wasting money on employees to collect from the deadbeats.. Some advice to capitol idea- big law and T14 is not a true hedge against the market as most will not make partner there. Most defense side lawyers make pennies for salaries. The elites love what is happening, it preserves their hoards of wealth from litigation. Seriously injured people need economic redress and they are not getting it.

Anecdotes can often be more true to life and helpful than a statistical analysis.