Help! Undergraduate Degree not equivalent to U.S. degree? Forum

[MisterT]

Hi everyone

I got a surprise this morning when I opened my LSAC International Credential Evaluation and saw how the past three years of undergraduate blood sweat and tears was evaluated to make it seem pretty much worthless.

First of all, my grades were calculated to have a weighted 4.36/6 average. By my calculations (and those of my University!) my average is around 5.27. I also recieved an "Average" rating, even though I am roughly in the top 10 percentile. I have asked LSAC to have another look. Have any of you had similar experiences and have been able to save your entire average from being stamped as mediocre?

Second, in the comments section, the following was noted: "[...] The Bachelor of Arts when completed will represent three years of undergraduate credit from a regionally accredited college or university in the United States. It is not comparable to a bachelor's degree in the United States.."

Would this affect my elligibilty to apply to law school in the U.S? I phoned LSAC and they told me it would depend on what the individual schools required, but my biggest fear is that I am unable to apply to law school. In any case, it seems quite strange that my degree is not equivalent, just because our system has 3 year long undergraduate degrees while the U.S. has 4.

Thanks alot for your help!

[AReasonableMan]

It sounds like you just have to do one year of college.

[tvu]

Post removed...

[Hand]

Hi everyone

I got a surprise this morning when I opened my LSAC International Credential Evaluation and saw how the past three years of undergraduate blood sweat and tears was evaluated to make it seem pretty much worthless.

First of all, my grades were calculated to have a weighted 4.36/6 average. By my calculations (and those of my University!) my average is around 5.27. I also recieved an "Average" rating, even though I am roughly in the top 10 percentile. I have asked LSAC to have another look. Have any of you had similar experiences and have been able to save your entire average from being stamped as mediocre?

Second, in the comments section, the following was noted: "[...] The Bachelor of Arts when completed will represent three years of undergraduate credit from a regionally accredited college or university in the United States. It is not comparable to a bachelor's degree in the United States.."

Would this affect my elligibilty to apply to law school in the U.S? I phoned LSAC and they told me it would depend on what the individual schools required, but my biggest fear is that I am unable to apply to law school. In any case, it seems quite strange that my degree is not equivalent, just because our system has 3 year long undergraduate degrees while the U.S. has 4.

Thanks alot for your help!

1. If they didn't calculate your average grade correctly, they'll fix that. However, bear in mind that they will include all courses you've taken over three years, and weigh them purely on the basis of their credit value, which your university may not do (in many countries with 3-year undergraduate degrees, the first year is excluded, or given less weight).

2. U.S. higher education institutions generally do not consider a 3-year undergraduate degree equivalent to a U.S. bachelor, unless you completed your studies in a country that requires completing pre-university studies after completion of secondary education (such as in the U.K., where one must take A-levels to gain university admission). Universities here are, in principle, free to admit students to graduate level programs on the basis of a 3-year degree that doesn't fall into this exception. However, I doubt that any reputable law school will, given the following regulations set forth by the ABA

Standard 502. EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS
(a) A law school shall require for admission to its J.D. degree program a bachelor’s degree that has been awarded by an institution that is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education.
(b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a law school may also admit to its J.D. degree program:
1) an applicant who has completed three-fourths of the credits leading to a bachelor’s degree as part of a bachelor’s degree/J.D. degree program if the institution is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education; and
2) a graduate of an institution outside the United States if the law school assures that the quality of the program of education of that institution is equivalent to that of institutions accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education.
(c) In an extraordinary case, a law school may admit to its J.D. degree program an applicant who does not satisfy the requirements of subsections (a) or (b) if the applicant’s experience, ability, and other qualifications clearly demonstrate an aptitude for the study of law. For every such admission, a statement of the considerations that led to the decision shall be placed in the admittee’s file.

Clause b.2 effectively assures that they'll only admit foreign-educated applicants who have completed an undergraduate program equivalent to a 4-year U.S. bachelor's degree--you're not gonna qualify for the exception in clause c.

What you need to do is complete a 1 (or 2) year master's program in your home country. Doing a random year of college is not going to work, since it's not just about the number of credits you've earned, but about completing something that actually requires four years of study, and the only way to do that is to complete a program that requires completing a 3-year undergraduate degree for entry.

[DownUnder]

Hi everyone

I got a surprise this morning when I opened my LSAC International Credential Evaluation and saw how the past three years of undergraduate blood sweat and tears was evaluated to make it seem pretty much worthless.

First of all, my grades were calculated to have a weighted 4.36/6 average. By my calculations (and those of my University!) my average is around 5.27. I also recieved an "Average" rating, even though I am roughly in the top 10 percentile. I have asked LSAC to have another look. Have any of you had similar experiences and have been able to save your entire average from being stamped as mediocre?

Second, in the comments section, the following was noted: "[...] The Bachelor of Arts when completed will represent three years of undergraduate credit from a regionally accredited college or university in the United States. It is not comparable to a bachelor's degree in the United States.."

Would this affect my elligibilty to apply to law school in the U.S? I phoned LSAC and they told me it would depend on what the individual schools required, but my biggest fear is that I am unable to apply to law school. In any case, it seems quite strange that my degree is not equivalent, just because our system has 3 year long undergraduate degrees while the U.S. has 4.

Thanks alot for your help!

1. If they didn't calculate your average grade correctly, they'll fix that. However, bear in mind that they will include all courses you've taken over three years, and weigh them purely on the basis of their credit value, which your university may not do (in many countries with 3-year undergraduate degrees, the first year is excluded, or given less weight).

2. U.S. higher education institutions generally do not consider a 3-year undergraduate degree equivalent to a U.S. bachelor, unless you completed your studies in a country that requires completing pre-university studies after completion of secondary education (such as in the U.K., where one must take A-levels to gain university admission). Universities here are, in principle, free to admit students to graduate level programs on the basis of a 3-year degree that doesn't fall into this exception. However, I doubt that any reputable law school will, given the following regulations set forth by the ABA

Standard 502. EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS
(a) A law school shall require for admission to its J.D. degree program a bachelor’s degree that has been awarded by an institution that is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education.
(b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a law school may also admit to its J.D. degree program:
1) an applicant who has completed three-fourths of the credits leading to a bachelor’s degree as part of a bachelor’s degree/J.D. degree program if the institution is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education; and
2) a graduate of an institution outside the United States if the law school assures that the quality of the program of education of that institution is equivalent to that of institutions accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education.
(c) In an extraordinary case, a law school may admit to its J.D. degree program an applicant who does not satisfy the requirements of subsections (a) or (b) if the applicant’s experience, ability, and other qualifications clearly demonstrate an aptitude for the study of law. For every such admission, a statement of the considerations that led to the decision shall be placed in the admittee’s file.

Clause b.2 effectively assures that they'll only admit foreign-educated applicants who have completed an undergraduate program equivalent to a 4-year U.S. bachelor's degree--you're not gonna qualify for the exception in clause c.

What you need to do is complete a 1 (or 2) year master's program in your home country. Doing a random year of college is not going to work, since it's not just about the number of credits you've earned, but about completing something that actually requires four years of study, and the only way to do that is to complete a program that requires completing a 3-year undergraduate degree for entry.

Interesting.

To me, the bold section does not assure anything regarding 3-year or 4-year requirements.

" if the law school assures quality of the program of education of the institution is equivalent to that of institutions accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by..."

This basically indicates that a bachelors degree, whether it be 3 or 4 years, from any recognized university should be sufficient (assuming the institution attended has some sort of international credential and reach). This 3/4 year bachelors argument may be more relevant in other more 'academic' postgraduate programs but I cannot see it being a problem in law school admissions given the above requirements.

As for OP, could you advise us on what it says under the Postsecondary Summary section on your JD Foreign CAS evaluation? Mine has + and # next to my institution name which indicate 'Highest level of US postsecondary-equivalent work completed' and 'Bachelor-equivalent degree or coursework' respectively. This clearly shows that even though the 'US-comparable education completed at this institution' section in my application only indicate Undergrad - three years, my degree is still considered to be an equivalent to a US 4 year bachelors in terms of law school admissions.

I can see that OP seems to have comments on his evaluation indicating that his degree won't be equivalent to a US degree but this certainly does not mean every international with a 3 year degree should be doing extra year of college to go to law school in the US.

[Hand]

To me, the bold section does not assure anything regarding 3-year or 4-year requirements.

" if the law school assures quality of the program of education of the institution is equivalent to that of institutions accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by..."

This basically indicates that a bachelors degree, whether it be 3 or 4 years, from any recognized university should be sufficient (assuming the institution attended has some sort of international credential and reach). This 3/4 year bachelors argument may be more relevant in other more 'academic' postgraduate programs but I cannot see it being a problem in law school admissions given the above requirements.

Yeah, you are right in that this passage probably leaves more room for schools to take the 3-year degree to be sufficient than I suggested. Nobody, obviously, should just blindly commit to further studies in their home country without making absolutely sure they cannot gain entry to a law school here on the basis of their 3-year degree. Whether they will is not, though, really a matter of how "academic" the program is or not (I know plenty PhD programs in the U.S. that will admit students with 3-year foreign degrees that are not considered equivalent to U.S. bachelor degrees, but also plenty that don't), but on just how well versed a school is in international education, how rigidly they interpret the above-quoted passage, and so on--all of which are matters that only the schools themselves can tell you, as there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

[DownUnder]

To me, the bold section does not assure anything regarding 3-year or 4-year requirements.

" if the law school assures quality of the program of education of the institution is equivalent to that of institutions accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by..."

This basically indicates that a bachelors degree, whether it be 3 or 4 years, from any recognized university should be sufficient (assuming the institution attended has some sort of international credential and reach). This 3/4 year bachelors argument may be more relevant in other more 'academic' postgraduate programs but I cannot see it being a problem in law school admissions given the above requirements.

Yeah, you are right in that this passage probably leaves more room for schools to take the 3-year degree to be sufficient than I suggested. Nobody, obviously, should just blindly commit to further studies in their home country without making absolutely sure they cannot gain entry to a law school here on the basis of their 3-year degree. Whether they will is not, though, really a matter of how "academic" the program is or not (I know plenty PhD programs in the U.S. that will admit students with 3-year foreign degrees that are not considered equivalent to U.S. bachelor degrees, but also plenty that don't), but on just how well versed a school is in international education, how rigidly they interpret the above-quoted passage, and so on--all of which are matters that only the schools themselves can tell you, as there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

Absolutely, every international applicant with a foreign bachelor should email LSAC and/or individual schools confirm their eligibility.

If anyone is interested, this questions was raised in Dean Meeker's old thread, he said that bachelors degree from any country is sufficient.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... r#p8205811

[MisterT]

Hi guys, thanks alot for your help!

As for OP, could you advise us on what it says under the Postsecondary Summary section on your JD Foreign CAS evaluation? Mine has + and # next to my institution name which indicate 'Highest level of US postsecondary-equivalent work completed' and 'Bachelor-equivalent degree or coursework' respectively. This clearly shows that even though the 'US-comparable education completed at this institution' section in my application only indicate Undergrad - three years, my degree is still considered to be an equivalent to a US 4 year bachelors in terms of law school admissions.

I have a +- next to my institution name, indicating highest level of US postsecondary-equivalent work, the minus indicating that the degree has not been completed (the lack of # seems to indicate that it is indeed not bachelor-equivalent).

If it doesn't depend on the 3/4 year requirement, and on the quality of schooling, I still cannot comprehend their decision since the University of Zurich is a very reputable school.

A few schools have told me that I am ineligable (although ABA regulations allow all of them some leeway), but some have told me they cannot give me a clear answer. Harvard wrote me the following for example: Without seeing your application and the LSAC’s credential report, we are unable to decisively tell you whether or not you are eligible to apply. You are welcome to apply and if you are found ineligible by our office, we will refund your application fee.We would also encourage you to research the requirements of the state bar associations that you are interested in as each state has individual guidelines and requirements surrounding an individual’s undergraduate education.

This doesn't help much, but it seems that individual state bar associations have different requirements for taking the bar exam, and that if I could find one that was more liberal in its requirements, I should have no trouble post graduation. Is this how you guys would interpret their answer? I am definately going to apply since my application is otherwise pretty much ready to go, but am wondering if I should add in anywhere that I am eligible to take the bar in a certain state or something like that to increase my chances of admission... though my intution tells me they should know this already having dealt with similar cases..

[DownUnder]

Hi guys, thanks alot for your help!

As for OP, could you advise us on what it says under the Postsecondary Summary section on your JD Foreign CAS evaluation? Mine has + and # next to my institution name which indicate 'Highest level of US postsecondary-equivalent work completed' and 'Bachelor-equivalent degree or coursework' respectively. This clearly shows that even though the 'US-comparable education completed at this institution' section in my application only indicate Undergrad - three years, my degree is still considered to be an equivalent to a US 4 year bachelors in terms of law school admissions.

I have a +- next to my institution name, indicating highest level of US postsecondary-equivalent work, the minus indicating that the degree has not been completed (the lack of # seems to indicate that it is indeed not bachelor-equivalent).

If it doesn't depend on the 3/4 year requirement, and on the quality of schooling, I still cannot comprehend their decision since the University of Zurich is a very reputable school.

A few schools have told me that I am ineligable (although ABA regulations allow all of them some leeway), but some have told me they cannot give me a clear answer. Harvard wrote me the following for example: Without seeing your application and the LSAC’s credential report, we are unable to decisively tell you whether or not you are eligible to apply. You are welcome to apply and if you are found ineligible by our office, we will refund your application fee.We would also encourage you to research the requirements of the state bar associations that you are interested in as each state has individual guidelines and requirements surrounding an individual’s undergraduate education.

This doesn't help much, but it seems that individual state bar associations have different requirements for taking the bar exam, and that if I could find one that was more liberal in its requirements, I should have no trouble post graduation. Is this how you guys would interpret their answer? I am definately going to apply since my application is otherwise pretty much ready to go, but am wondering if I should add in anywhere that I am eligible to take the bar in a certain state or something like that to increase my chances of admission... though my intution tells me they should know this already having dealt with similar cases..

NY bar just requires a bachelors degree any major, you should be fine for most bar admissions id imagine. University of Zurich is a very reputable university and it is puzzling why they would accept a 3-year degree from the UK and not from Swiss.

Harvard is known to accept 3-year international degrees so I would not worry too much them.

I would be worried about the "-" more than anything else at the moment. Why would they put a minus next to your institution when you have completed your degree? Looking at how they got your GPA wrong, they may not have all your transcripts or information.

As per the link I put up in my previous post, Dean Meeker (former Dean of Admissions at Penn) has said bachelors degree from any country is fine, so Id assume the same will apply for most if not all of the top law schools.

[MisterT]

Just to resuscitate this thread briefly: All apps submitted now. LSAC took over 2 months re-evaluating my transcript (and still gave me shitty grades). Got a sweet LOR from the dean of the law faculty at the University of Zurich sort of saying that a three year undergraduate degree is more than enough and they should let me in etc.

I also applied to LSE for a 12 month masters program for the worst case scenario that I really would need an extra year of studies and was recently accepted. I assume I shouldn't let schools know about this i.e. ask them to accept and defer me? Or would it maybe provide an extra leg up for my application?

Cheers