What are my chances for a T14 Law School with these soft factors? Forum

[laurossman]

I know these questions are silly, and there's really no way to answer them. But I have no one in my life to talk to about my law school application, and I would appreciate some feedback. I am applying early decision to a T14 school. My GPA is at their median, but my LSAT is at their 25th percentile for accepted students in 2014 I know everyone says it's is a numbers game, but this particular school seems to be pretty proud of the fact that they don't play the numbers game and don't have numerical cut-offs.

I keep going back and forth between thinking "OMG MY RESUME IS SO IMPRESSIVE" to "Wow I'm way over-inflating this in my head." Let me know your thoughts: throughout all four years of college I was a varsity athlete and a reading tutor to elementary school children. I also studied abroad in South America. I taught seminars about sexual assault awareness to first year students and was a member of the main women's group on campus. I was thoroughly involved in community service and received an award for it at graduation. Also received honors for doing a senior thesis. I majored in International Relations and minored in Political Science. During all my summer vacations, I interned in an Alumni Relations office at an ivy-league business school, which is sort of random and unrelated to my aspirations, but a solid internship nonetheless. I returned to the same place after college as an assistant. I left after about a year and a half, and now I'm working at a nonprofit that provides shelter and social services to homeless women and children. My title still technically has "assistant" in it, but I'm only a couple years out of college, so that's not too big a deal, right?

My personal statement is about my experience with domestic violence (survived 2 years of truly awful abuse) and how it lead me down the path to becoming a civil rights attorney. I am a white female, so, not really a URM. I might be considered a "legacy"?? My step-father received his JD from this same school. However, he is dead and therefore won't be making any sort of impressive donations. Does that sort of cancel out the legacy factor?

As I'm looking at my whole application, I think I will definitely stand out to the admissions council. It feels like despite my LSAT score, I have a real shot at getting in. However, I have no concept of what other applicants' resumes look like, and maybe everyone has had these experiences. What do you guys think? Thanks!!

[rinkrat19]

Even if you did get in, which is seriously unlikely, you'd get screwed on cost and not get any scholarship money. Literally the only reasonable decision here is retaking the LSAT.

[packer_22]

While I'm sure everything you did was really difficult (and should feel meaningful), these are not the kinds of softs that will help you punch above your numbers, based purely on two things: my cycle and my friends cycle, knowledge of my law school friends at the t-14 I went to.

If you're wondering what WOULD be impressive, serving for years as a military officer, a PhD, starting a seven figure engineering company, etc. I had friends do all 3 and get into my UG's law school (which is T-10). (They all has below a 3.3 but above a 175 and used to give me shit about my 173).

Your experiences are great and will lead you to a great fulfilling career, but IMO, what yku described is not "OMG my resume is so impressive."

Further, I agree with the above poster, you need to focus on getting a scholarship if you want to so Civil Rights because it doesn't pay much. Getting Penn for 320,000 isn't such a good deal! (Or wherever your top school is)

[Nekrowizard]

Just retake.

[laurossman]

Thank you packer_22 for your response, it is very helpful and definitely gives me perspective. I guess I was aware of some of the truly impressive soft-factors out there. But I thought/hoped that those extremely impressive factors were relatively rare, especially considering I don't know anyone like the outstanding friends you mention. I wondered if it was actually possible for the bottom 25% of accepted students (133 people) to have outrageously impressive factors (factors more impressive than mine).

But for real, thank you for managing my expectations. It'll allow me to better develop my plan B. If I'm rejected/deferred from early decision, I'll probably apply to another school in the same city, which is in the T22, where I have a MUCH stronger chance of acceptance (according to the LSAC predictor, I'd have a 68-78% chance of acceptance at this second school, compared to a 20-30% chance at my first choice).

Thank you!

[landshoes]

The problem is not getting in, it's getting in but with crippling debt and no other options (meaning you have no leverage with which to negotiate).

You never know what adcomm is going to love your softs and help you shoot above your numbers. I got a ton of money at a T-6 which was surprising given my numbers, and I would not have had that option had I applied early decision.

Have you considered trying for NYU's Root-Tilden-Kern scholarship? You have great softs for that particular scholarship.

[laurossman]

No I hadn't considered it, thank you for telling me about it.

The decision to apply early decision was based on the knowledge that this school only awards money to 40% of students. I assume I'd never have a shot at any money, even if accepted in the regular admissions cycle. I was willing to go into debt, because of the fact that there are drastically fewer jobs than law school graduates, and a degree from a T14 school would pay off in the end. My thinking might be off, and perhaps a T22 school might be a wiser choice in my position.

I've read in a few different places that an amazing personal statement can add a couple points to your LSAT. I wonder how personal statements are generally weighted..?

[chuckbass]

Why not retake the lsat though? While you may have your heart set on one school, the debt isn't worth it when there are several different schools that probably give you an equal shot at what you want to do. What do you want to do?

[packer_22]

Thank you packer_22 for your response, it is very helpful and definitely gives me perspective. I guess I was aware of some of the truly impressive soft-factors out there. But I thought/hoped that those extremely impressive factors were relatively rare, especially considering I don't know anyone like the outstanding friends you mention. I wondered if it was actually possible for the bottom 25% of accepted students (133 people) to have outrageously impressive factors (factors more impressive than mine).
!

They don't have better soft factors than you- most people are above one median (LSAT or GPA). if you are below both, you'd need really impressive soft factors or URM-status.

[AReasonableMan]

For what it's worth, all law schools have to use a "holistic" approach in order to have a URM boost because of a Supreme Court decision. Asking if a law school is holistic is akin to asking if a massage parlor is really just a massage parlor.

[laurossman]

Thank you packer_22 for your response, it is very helpful and definitely gives me perspective. I guess I was aware of some of the truly impressive soft-factors out there. But I thought/hoped that those extremely impressive factors were relatively rare, especially considering I don't know anyone like the outstanding friends you mention. I wondered if it was actually possible for the bottom 25% of accepted students (133 people) to have outrageously impressive factors (factors more impressive than mine).
!

They don't have better soft factors than you- most people are above one median (LSAT or GPA). if you are below both, you'd need really impressive soft factors or URM-status.

What I meant to say is 25% of accepted students had an LSAT lower than mine. My GPA is at the median, but perhaps most of those people in the bottom quartile had above median GPAs.

[TheSpanishMain]

I'm pretty sure we're talking about GULC here and now you're planning on going to GW.

Just retake the stupid LSAT. Your resume suggests you're a capable, resilient person. Getting a few more points on a standardized test is very doable.

Ps please don't go to (any) school at sticker price

[A. Nony Mouse]

Thank you packer_22 for your response, it is very helpful and definitely gives me perspective. I guess I was aware of some of the truly impressive soft-factors out there. But I thought/hoped that those extremely impressive factors were relatively rare, especially considering I don't know anyone like the outstanding friends you mention. I wondered if it was actually possible for the bottom 25% of accepted students (133 people) to have outrageously impressive factors (factors more impressive than mine).
!

They don't have better soft factors than you- most people are above one median (LSAT or GPA). if you are below both, you'd need really impressive soft factors or URM-status.

What I meant to say is 25% of accepted students had an LSAT lower than mine. My GPA is at the median, but perhaps most of those people in the bottom quartile had above median GPAs.

This is usually how it works - someone with a low LSAT has a great GPA and vice versa.

[Big Dog]

Boalt is one T14 that would love your story: female, overcome significant adversity, high GPA.

But whatever you do, don't apply ED, just so you can incur bone-crunching debt. Retake.

[Gray]

.

[emkay625]

Please know that I am saying this not to be rude or hurtful. I am sincere and am trying to offer perspective.

Your soft factors do not seem to be all that impressive. Certainly not overcome-a-median-GPA-and-below-median-LSAT impressive.

This needs some qualification, Are you an accomplished person? Absolutely! You have accomplished a lot. You had a summer internship. You did a lot of extracurriculars and did some volunteer work. You have a full time, respectable job where you help people. This makes you more accomplished than the average person your age by quite a bit.

It does not, however, make you more accomplished than the other folks applying to top-14 law schools. Most successful applicants at these schools are similarly high achieving. They also had an internship in undergrad. They also were in extracurriculars. Many of them also have full-time, real world work experience.

That's the reason you're getting the responses you're getting. You need to retake.

Additionally, no one is saying the elephant in the room. Soft factors matter very, very little. Like not really at all, unless it's Yale, and then you still have to have the numbers - you're not overcoming below-median numbers with soft factors.

To be perfectly honest, those other folks with below-median LSATs who got in did not get in because they had awesome soft factors. They got in because they had an above-median GPA or because they are a URM. When admissions offices say they don't care about numbers and they evaluating holistically, they are lying. They have to say that because it is the only way they are legally allowed to practice affirmative action. But they're lying.

TL,DR: you're awesome, but so is everyone else applying. Retake.

[whacka]

Post removed.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

please just fucking retake. this is the one chance you have in your life where someone will give you tens of thousands of dollars for getting a few points on an extremely learnable test. don't be dense

[pancakes3]

"retake" isn't a personal judgment on your intelligence or work ethic.

[Wild Card]

As a non-URM with very strong softs, I'd managed to get into lower-T14 schools with a 25th percentile LSAT and median GPA; these schools even offered me substantial discounts (half-tuition+). However, I wasn't able to get into the T6 schools (or Penn) until I presented an LSAT score at or above their medians.

If you're truly an outstanding storyteller, you could secure a very substantial scholarship at Michigan or Berkeley, or even a full-ride public interest scholarship from NYU.

[Clearly]

You're wrong about the whole T14 and everything will be OK thing. I don't think you realize how much money you're giving up by not retaking. If you win the game and even get biglaw, you'll make 160k, which is 100k after taxes. You'll take out 300k in debt. If you cut your paycheck in HALF and pay 50k a year in loans, while somehow living in a major city on 50k, you'll pay off your debt in 7-10 years depending on interest rates. VERY VERY few people survive 7-10 years in biglaw, and even if you did, why do all this work to barely get by on $50k a year+raises? Just retake the stupid multiple choice test thats worth 300k for bubbling shit in, and keep all your money.

Call your school right now and withdraw your ED, register for the lsat, and study every day, hire a tutor if you have to. This test is much easier than everything else that is going to follow in your life, and apparently some of the preceding parts of it too. Do it right.