The reach school Forum

[Scalvert]

I'm wondering what criteria I should use in determining my "reach" schools. I initially had a list of about 10 schools where, according to the LSAT/GPA search at LSAC, I had at least a 90% likelihood of admission. Later, I read that you should always apply to a couple of schools that were considered reaches, so I added WashU (75%) and Vandy (50%). I didn't want to waste time and $, so I pretty much ignored the t14. Now I'm rethinking that after getting fee waivers from Duke and GULC. (25 and 40% chance respectively). So in light of not having $$ to waste, should I only apply to reaches that extend waivers, or forget them altogether since LSAC still charges to send the report? Also I've heard some schools that would be a reach for me put heavy consideration on other parts of the app. So that may help me...or not:

The bad:
standard kJD resume (pt jobs, volunteering, clubs, honors, offices, etc)
Mid 160s LSAT

The good:
A strong PS
A couple of great LoRs
Very good GPA

I have a retake left (because I know that's coming, lol), but I can't do it before February, and that seems really late in the game to be of much use. I really need $$$ so I think applying to ANY reach school would be a waste of time, but I've also been cautioned by someone whom I trust (a former AdComm at Northwestern) not to sell myself short. Just kinda wondering how everyone else is making this decision.

[Tiago Splitter]

1. Forget that search you used. Use mylsn.info and nothing else. LSAC and lawschoolpredictor are pure crap.

2. You can get in to T-14's with a "very good GPA" (presumably 3.9+) but simply getting in should not be your goal.

3. If you can't retake until February then sit out and do this right. You only go to law school once. With a 3.9/170 you can easily snag a full ride or close to it from a T-14. There's no reason to rush this, especially given that you've conceded you need a lot of money to make this work. The only way to get good money is to get a higher LSAT score, so why not do that?

If your career goals are such that going to a lower ranked school with a full ride makes sense then forget retaking. But don't go T-14 without really buckling down and doing the best you can on the LSAT.

[Scalvert]

I'm not pursuing BigLaw, so a strong regional makes sense for me. I'd like PI work, so I need to go as close to free as I can get.

When people say "reach" school what does that really mean? It sounds like bad advice telling people to spend money applying somewhere that will likely give them no money even if they do "get lucky" and make it through the door. I've heard that to have the best employment opportunities for PI, you should attend LS close to the DC area. Would W&M with $$$ be a smart decision? My LSAT is above median and GPA is above 75th percentile. Would retaking in the hopes of gaining enough to get into UVA, GULC or Duke make sense for a PI career? Would I need a significant increase (like +10) in my LSAT to get $$ at those schools?

I just don't want to do something that doesn't make sense for me. This whole idea of "you should apply to a couple of reach schools" seems odd.

[rnoodles]

I second Tiago's third point with the added mention that with your GPA, if you can get a 175+ (maybe even 173) you're looking at HYS being a possibility. Not to mention the serious $$$ throughout the T14.

Edit: You will easily get $$$ (w/ stipends) at a strong regional with those types of numbers too. Better to have a wealth of options.

[Tiago Splitter]

This whole idea of "you should apply to a couple of reach schools" seems odd.

It is. You should go to a school that offers the best chance at your career goals at the lowest costs. Sounds easy enough, but it's tough to know until you've applied and have the various options in front of you. Which is why getting the best possible LSAT score and then seeing what's available is the way to go.

You should be able to land a near full ride from GULC if you get above their median, which last cycle was only 167. Similar story at Duke and UVA, assuming you are above their GPA medians.

[Scalvert]

Not sure scoring mid 170s is feasible, but I can do better. My pt scores ranged from 165-174, usually around 168/169, so my actual score was extremely disappointing. The same thing happened both times, so maybe I'm not a good LSAT taker. I think I over-analyze the real thing.

As far as negotiating goes, if I already had an acceptance at Vandy, mylsn actually predicts 60% with 100%/$70000 (better than LSAC) with my current numbers, would they increase the scholly after a Feb retake? (Provided of course that I could manage to score my average this time).

Back to PI, I'm assuming when looking at job placement numbers, that just because a higher ranked school only places 3% in PI, it doesn't necessarily mean that a lower ranked school that places 20% is better for public interest. I would believe that it would just indicate that a higher percentage of grads from the higher ranked school are able to get BigLaw/clerkships etc...is that right?

[rnoodles]

Not sure scoring mid 170s is feasible, but I can do better. My pt scores ranged from 165-174, usually around 168/169, so my actual score was extremely disappointing. The same thing happened both times, so maybe I'm not a good LSAT taker. I think I over-analyze the real thing.

As far as negotiating goes, if I already had an acceptance at Vandy, mylsn actually predicts 60% with 100%/$70000 (better than LSAC) with my current numbers, would they increase the scholly after a Feb retake? (Provided of course that I could manage to score my average this time).

Provided you got in and scored at or above their 75th, I'd say they would increase the scholly at Vandy. You may even be able to request some T14s hold off until your Feb. take. Sure it may be a gamble that late in the cycle, but if you turn in a score at their median/75th I doubt they'd turn you away (esp. with your GPA).

Worst case, if you don't like your options you can always sit out and reapply early with your highest take.

Edit: Seriously, with a 168+/3.9 Berk may be a very realistic option for you. That's not a bad deal at all in my opinion, esp. cause their median dropped to 166 this year.

[Dcc617]

I'm wondering what criteria I should use in determining my "reach" schools. I initially had a list of about 10 schools where, according to the LSAT/GPA search at LSAC, I had at least a 90% likelihood of admission. Later, I read that you should always apply to a couple of schools that were considered reaches, so I added WashU (75%) and Vandy (50%). I didn't want to waste time and $, so I pretty much ignored the t14. Now I'm rethinking that after getting fee waivers from Duke and GULC. (25 and 40% chance respectively). So in light of not having $$ to waste, should I only apply to reaches that extend waivers, or forget them altogether since LSAC still charges to send the report? Also I've heard some schools that would be a reach for me put heavy consideration on other parts of the app. So that may help me...or not:

The bad:
standard kJD resume (pt jobs, volunteering, clubs, honors, offices, etc)
Mid 160s LSAT

The good:
A strong PS
A couple of great LoRs
Very good GPA

I have a retake left (because I know that's coming, lol), but I can't do it before February, and that seems really late in the game to be of much use. I really need $$$ so I think applying to ANY reach school would be a waste of time, but I've also been cautioned by someone whom I trust (a former AdComm at Northwestern) not to sell myself short. Just kinda wondering how everyone else is making this decision.

Take a year off. Then there's no LSAT time crunch and you're no longer KJD. And you can save money and get real world experience. And why wouldn't you take a year off? There's literally no downside.

[Scalvert]

I suppose I could retake in December, but this fall is my final semester. With work, volunteer obligations, finals/LSAT being at the same time, and with 12/18 hours being history courses - meaning there will be like fifty papers to write - idk that I would have the chance to put in the kind of time I need to. I guess I should check on the registration deadline. Maybe I won't be as swamped as I expect to be.

I honestly don't think I've ever been as disappointed as I was when I got my June score back. After the Feb test, I felt I had done badly, but I actually felt pretty confident last time. Curve didn't help much either. I had decided that I was not going to put myself through that again, but as time passes, I'm starting to feel differently.

I don't think Vandy, W&M or WUSTL would be bad options regardless of what happens.I've visited the WUSTL campus and the people I talked to were very friendly and the campus was beautiful.

[Scalvert]

I'm wondering what criteria I should use in determining my "reach" schools. I initially had a list of about 10 schools where, according to the LSAT/GPA search at LSAC, I had at least a 90% likelihood of admission. Later, I read that you should always apply to a couple of schools that were considered reaches, so I added WashU (75%) and Vandy (50%). I didn't want to waste time and $, so I pretty much ignored the t14. Now I'm rethinking that after getting fee waivers from Duke and GULC. (25 and 40% chance respectively). So in light of not having $$ to waste, should I only apply to reaches that extend waivers, or forget them altogether since LSAC still charges to send the report? Also I've heard some schools that would be a reach for me put heavy consideration on other parts of the app. So that may help me...or not:

The bad:
standard kJD resume (pt jobs, volunteering, clubs, honors, offices, etc)
Mid 160s LSAT

The good:
A strong PS
A couple of great LoRs
Very good GPA

I have a retake left (because I know that's coming, lol), but I can't do it before February, and that seems really late in the game to be of much use. I really need $$$ so I think applying to ANY reach school would be a waste of time, but I've also been cautioned by someone whom I trust (a former AdComm at Northwestern) not to sell myself short. Just kinda wondering how everyone else is making this decision.

Take a year off. Then there's no LSAT time crunch and you're no longer KJD. And you can save money and get real world experience. And why wouldn't you take a year off? There's literally no downside.

That's excellent advice, and it's probably what I should do. I've tried to talk myself into taking a year off, but I just have no desire to do that. I know that I will probably regret not having listened to the people who tell me this, however I still can't see myself doing it.

[Dcc617]

I'm wondering what criteria I should use in determining my "reach" schools. I initially had a list of about 10 schools where, according to the LSAT/GPA search at LSAC, I had at least a 90% likelihood of admission. Later, I read that you should always apply to a couple of schools that were considered reaches, so I added WashU (75%) and Vandy (50%). I didn't want to waste time and $, so I pretty much ignored the t14. Now I'm rethinking that after getting fee waivers from Duke and GULC. (25 and 40% chance respectively). So in light of not having $$ to waste, should I only apply to reaches that extend waivers, or forget them altogether since LSAC still charges to send the report? Also I've heard some schools that would be a reach for me put heavy consideration on other parts of the app. So that may help me...or not:

The bad:
standard kJD resume (pt jobs, volunteering, clubs, honors, offices, etc)
Mid 160s LSAT

The good:
A strong PS
A couple of great LoRs
Very good GPA

I have a retake left (because I know that's coming, lol), but I can't do it before February, and that seems really late in the game to be of much use. I really need $$$ so I think applying to ANY reach school would be a waste of time, but I've also been cautioned by someone whom I trust (a former AdComm at Northwestern) not to sell myself short. Just kinda wondering how everyone else is making this decision.

Take a year off. Then there's no LSAT time crunch and you're no longer KJD. And you can save money and get real world experience. And why wouldn't you take a year off? There's literally no downside.

That's excellent advice, and it's probably what I should do. I've tried to talk myself into taking a year off, but I just have no desire to do that. I know that I will probably regret not having listened to the people who tell me this, however I still can't see myself doing it.

Everybody has to figure stuff out their own way. Some people will listen, and others have to see it for themselves.

Like I was telling someone on TLS the other day, you have your whole life ahead of you. You're probably not even a quarter of the way through it yet. What's the rush? What difference does a year make to your future law career in the big scheme of things? The boat's not going to sail. If anything, mp work experience will make you more marketable on the other side.

I ended up taking about three years before applying, and I don't regret that for a moment. I don't think I really appreciated how big the world was until I got out into it for a few years. Now I know why I want to go to law school, and I can appreciate being a student again and look forward to a professional career. I just didn't have that perspective at 22. I also improved my lsat by 11 points in that time, which makes a huge difference in my school choices.

All that said, some people have to live through it to understand. Good luck with everything.

[Dcc617]

You can PM me if you want to talk in any more detail.

[cheesy143]

I'm on my second year of my gap year and I would recommend it. I was in a similar situation where I got my LSAT score back and was disappointed so I took a year off instead of applying with numbers I wasn't happy with. I've been happy with my decision especially because I am aiming for PI so I have been volunteering for multiple places and building up my resume and just general experiences.

And I would be careful if a school has a PI placement of 3%, that could mean the school isn't very focused on PI and doesn't do a lot of intern/externships or doesn't have a PI career office.

[Scalvert]

Thanks! I need to research that more.

I will go ahead and apply and see what happens. There is still plenty of time for a decision. Maybe I will get an offer that is too good to pass up, but if not, the better option may be taking a year off. I'll keep my mind open.

[IceManKazanski]

To your point about scoring below your PTs and being a "bad LSAT taker," try to think about it this way: study your ass off, but when it comes to test day, remember that schools take your highest score, they don't average. Go into the test stress-free, knowing that at the very worst you will end up with your prior highest score.

Stress is a huge factor in hurting test takers' score. I know its hard, but if you are more relaxed taking the exam I am confident you will perform better.

[jbagelboy]

The bad:
standard kJD resume (pt jobs, volunteering, clubs, honors, offices, etc)
Mid 160s LSAT

The good:
A strong PS
A couple of great LoRs
Very good GPA

I have a retake left (because I know that's coming, lol), but I can't do it before February, and that seems really late in the game to be of much use. I really need $$$ so I think applying to ANY reach school would be a waste of time, but I've also been cautioned by someone whom I trust (a former AdComm at Northwestern) not to sell myself short. Just kinda wondering how everyone else is making this decision.