Law School and PhD Applications Forum

[SabbathPuppet]

I'm applying to law schools and to PhD programs (in a soft social science) at roughly the same time. I can't find any advice online about doing this. It seems very rare. This is surprising to me, because I'm having a hard time deciding between the two. Both fields have terrible job markets (but terrible in different ways) and appeal to people who otherwise have few marketable skills (that's me!). Also, given the extreme competitiveness of PhD programs, it is possible that I won't get into any that are worth going to, and it would surely be nice to have some kind of back-up in the form of law school.

I guess for most prospective PhD students, a PhD program is more of a "calling" than a means to a job, i.e., something you just feel like you need to do despite the overwhelmingly poor job prospects. This ethos makes it very awkward to ask for recommendations for both PhD programs and law schools, because people presume you haven't thought seriously enough about either (and perhaps rightfully so).

I don't have a particular inquiry here, I'm just curious to see if anybody is in a similar position.

[Generally]

Post removed.

[banjo]

I was in your position several years ago, so here's my 0.02.

If you HAVE to apply to both law school and PhD programs this fall, you can certainly do it. Professors write dual recommendations all the time and know that you might not get into the right PhD program, might not get funding, etc.

If you HAVE to enroll in either a PhD program or law school next fall, I'd start in a fully funded PhD program. You can always drop out if you decide it's not for you and go to law school. That's what I did and I met many others in law school who did the same. It's a little bit harder to go the other way (Law School to PhD)--your relationship with your recommenders gets a little stale, your subject knowledge gets rusty, you might have debt, and you might have less geographical flexibility in your late 20s than you do right now.

That said, the better option is to work for a year or two (maybe as a paralegal) and really think about what you want. As you know, a PhD is a huge commitment and requires massive sacrifice. The job market for humanities and social sciences graduates is abysmal, even relative to the legal industry. You might sink 10 years into your PhD and have nothing to show for it. Law school is not much of a backup option either. It costs an absurd amount and plenty of people hate the practice of law and leave. Spend some time in the real world, develop your skills, think creatively about your career, and reevaluate in 1-2 years.

[cdotson2]

I have an interest in both academia(soft phd) and the law and I had lots of conversations with my adviser and family members, as well as thought out the full implications of going through each route, and finally decided on law school.

my personal reasons for doing so
1. it can be a lot more practical and hands on if I want
2. I can still go into academia with a JD+llm and become a Law school professor
3. I don't like math and didn't want to take the gre

[fredfred]

I was in a similar position. I went to get my phd and eventually left with my masters and I'm heading to law school this fall. I wanted to be an academic but my opinion changed drastically after being in academia and working on my phd.

I would recommend trying that route first. It's 6-7 years versus 3 and you might be like me and learn faster. At least I had funding so it didn't cost me anything except time and I still got my masters versus the opposite would be 100k+ in debt so you can't be wrong if you go law first.

[SabbathPuppet]

Much thanks to all the posters above. Your advice sounds very reasonable and it's comforting to hear that others had similar experiences. As far as waiting another year goes, I have particular personal reasons for not wanting to do so -- reasons that are making this whole application season way too complicated.

[banjo]

Much thanks to all the posters above. Your advice sounds very reasonable and it's comforting to hear that others had similar experiences. As far as waiting another year goes, I have particular personal reasons for not wanting to do so -- reasons that are making this whole application season way too complicated.

You should have a really compelling reason for going straight to school. Although it's possible to go PhD --> JD (and certainly preferable to the alternative), you'll still have to explain your decision over and over again to admissions people and employers. Sometimes it can be a plus--older partners love to see intellectual curiosity. But other times I felt it I was fighting the presumption that I had no real direction in life.

[Young Marino]

I was in a similar predicament my senior year of college. Having an interest in both a poli sci PhD and a law degree, I was really struggling between the two for about 6 months. That fall, I took the GRE and did okay. I took the LSAT a month after graduating and did well enough to land a good scholarship at a regional school. Ultimately, I went with law school and I'm glad I did.

The job market for social science PhD students is worse than that of a law student, the PhD program takes twice as long to complete than a law program and you can actually teach at the college level with a law degree and without a PhD (albeit community college level is the more likely scenario). The only real advantage of a PhD over a law degree is students rarely leave PhD programs with the amount of debt of the average law student but if you study well enough for the LSAT, your debt load shouldn't be unreasonable.

I would still like to go for that Poli Sci PhD at some point in my life but it probably won't be until my mid 50s when I'm "retired" from practicing law and I have the financial flexibility to do so. But by then, I may not even want it. Who knows.

[SabbathPuppet]

Much thanks to all the posters above. Your advice sounds very reasonable and it's comforting to hear that others had similar experiences. As far as waiting another year goes, I have particular personal reasons for not wanting to do so -- reasons that are making this whole application season way too complicated.

You should have a really compelling reason for going straight to school. Although it's possible to go PhD --> JD (and certainly preferable to the alternative), you'll still have to explain your decision over and over again to admissions people and employers. Sometimes it can be a plus--older partners love to see intellectual curiosity. But other times I felt it I was fighting the presumption that I had no real direction in life.

What response did you give, if you don't mind my asking? I wonder if the dismal state of the market is common knowledge...

[banjo]

Much thanks to all the posters above. Your advice sounds very reasonable and it's comforting to hear that others had similar experiences. As far as waiting another year goes, I have particular personal reasons for not wanting to do so -- reasons that are making this whole application season way too complicated.

You should have a really compelling reason for going straight to school. Although it's possible to go PhD --> JD (and certainly preferable to the alternative), you'll still have to explain your decision over and over again to admissions people and employers. Sometimes it can be a plus--older partners love to see intellectual curiosity. But other times I felt it I was fighting the presumption that I had no real direction in life.

What response did you give, if you don't mind my asking? I wonder if the dismal state of the market is common knowledge...

I typically said I was passionate about my PhD field in undergrad, but realized in grad school that I wanted a practical, teamwork-oriented career instead of the solitary, theoretical life of an academic. That seemed to work really well. I got less positive responses when I mentioned the terrible job market or the fact that I had fallen out of love with my PhD field.

It's also important, especially for admissions, to keep a clean grad school transcript--no incompletes, no poor grades, or other red flags. You don't want people to think you're going to law school because you didn't do well in grad school.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I always talked how I found it more satisfying to work on problems with immediate consequences on those around me, not just academic consequences. (I worded it better - I'm out of practice.) I did a history PhD, so it wasn't like I was finding a cure for cancer.

And no, don't ever talk about how bad the academic market is (though it is). Mostly because the general rule is never badmouth where you're coming from - you always want to talk about what draws you to the new career ("I'm looking for an opportunity to come up with practical solutions to more pressing, immediate problems" rather than "I got sick of arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.")