The Power of a good LOR Forum

NigeranOU · Post by **NigeranOU** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:48 pm

So one of my professors, an acclaimed man with a doctorate and public administrative work outside of the university wrote me an amazing letter of rec. I myself am moved to borderline tears. What kind of power does that have in admissions?

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:50 pm

Negligible

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:52 pm

It means your LORs are a helpful soft. Think equal to or slightly better than a great PS, but less notable than URM or something absurdly prestigious and selective.

pittsburghpirates · Post by **pittsburghpirates** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:52 pm

Post removed.

NigeranOU · Post by **NigeranOU** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:58 pm

pittsburghpirates wrote:Depends on where you are applying. LS admissions by and large is a numbers game and your uGPA and LSAT will be the primary determinants in where you garner acceptances

Blanketing the t-14 plus USC/UCLA and OU
I am so an AA female

Hat.trick · Post by **Hat.trick** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:10 pm

A solid LOR would certainly help your application but its not going to work miracles. All your LORs together probably make up 1% of your actually admission likelihood. And while the poster above me is right when they say that schools weight them differently, most of the top schools will weigh them the way I described. So yes it helps but not a significant amount

thesealocust · Post by **thesealocust** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:11 pm

I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.

NigeranOU · Post by **NigeranOU** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:19 pm

thesealocust wrote:I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.

gonna pretend i didn't see this. first of all you better have some hard evidence to back that kind of statement up. and number two THEN WHY WOULD THEY ASK FOR THEM.

thesealocust · Post by **thesealocust** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:22 pm

NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.
gonna pretend i didn't see this. first of all you better have some hard evidence to back that kind of statement up. and number two THEN WHY WOULD THEY ASK FOR THEM.

The best evidence is data - look at websites like LawSchoolNumbers and you'll see that looking at an applicant's undergraduate GPA and LSAT is enough to predict their admissions decisions - and scholarship offers - an astonishing amount of the time. If the softer factors like letters of recommendation, essays, extracurricular, etc. were actually meaningful to the process, then you would see messier and noisier data. GPA and LSAT scores might be a factor, but they couldn't predict the whole story.

Yes, it's hyperbole to say they don't read them for 90%+ of applicants, but I doubt by much. They surely will look for red flags if nothing else, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that law school is little more than a numbers game.

NigeranOU · Post by **NigeranOU** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:31 pm

thesealocust wrote:
NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.
gonna pretend i didn't see this. first of all you better have some hard evidence to back that kind of statement up. and number two THEN WHY WOULD THEY ASK FOR THEM.
The best evidence is data - look at websites like LawSchoolNumbers and you'll see that looking at an applicant's undergraduate GPA and LSAT is enough to predict their admissions decisions - and scholarship offers - an astonishing amount of the time. If the softer factors like letters of recommendation, essays, extracurricular, etc. were actually meaningful to the process, then you would see messier and noisier data. GPA and LSAT scores might be a factor, but they couldn't predict the whole story.

Yes, it's hyperbole to say they don't read them for 90%+ of applicants, but I doubt by much. They surely will look for red flags if nothing else, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that law school is little more than a numbers game.

Your reasoning is flawed. Only a small percentage of law school applicants use LSN so to speak about its data as widely conclusive is a major error buddy. And yes, I know law school is mostly about GPA and LSAT that is a given. But for schools like berk who use a more holistic approach I am wondering the weight of a powerful LOR. I don't think hyperboles like that should be thrown around like on this site, a weaker person would have taken that to heart.

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:35 pm

NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.
gonna pretend i didn't see this. first of all you better have some hard evidence to back that kind of statement up. and number two THEN WHY WOULD THEY ASK FOR THEM.
The best evidence is data - look at websites like LawSchoolNumbers and you'll see that looking at an applicant's undergraduate GPA and LSAT is enough to predict their admissions decisions - and scholarship offers - an astonishing amount of the time. If the softer factors like letters of recommendation, essays, extracurricular, etc. were actually meaningful to the process, then you would see messier and noisier data. GPA and LSAT scores might be a factor, but they couldn't predict the whole story.

Yes, it's hyperbole to say they don't read them for 90%+ of applicants, but I doubt by much. They surely will look for red flags if nothing else, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that law school is little more than a numbers game.
Your reasoning is flawed. Only a small percentage of law school applicants use LSN so to speak about its data as widely conclusive is a major error buddy. And yes, I know law school is mostly about GPA and LSAT that is a given. But for schools like berk who use a more holistic approach I am wondering the weight of a powerful LOR. I don't think hyperboles like that should be thrown around like on this site, a weaker person would have taken that to heart.

I agree with your general viewpoint but I still think the conclusion that LORs are not determinate for around 90% of applicants still holds. The numbers have a huge impact for adcomms because so many people apply. I think that saying softs can overcome numbers for only around 10% (at most) of the top pool is accurate. Depending on your LSAT/GPA, your softs including this and URM status may put you in that ~10%.

pittsburghpirates · Post by **pittsburghpirates** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:41 pm

Post removed.

DCNTUA · Post by **DCNTUA** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:45 pm

NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.
gonna pretend i didn't see this. first of all you better have some hard evidence to back that kind of statement up. and number two THEN WHY WOULD THEY ASK FOR THEM.
The best evidence is data - look at websites like LawSchoolNumbers and you'll see that looking at an applicant's undergraduate GPA and LSAT is enough to predict their admissions decisions - and scholarship offers - an astonishing amount of the time. If the softer factors like letters of recommendation, essays, extracurricular, etc. were actually meaningful to the process, then you would see messier and noisier data. GPA and LSAT scores might be a factor, but they couldn't predict the whole story.

Yes, it's hyperbole to say they don't read them for 90%+ of applicants, but I doubt by much. They surely will look for red flags if nothing else, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that law school is little more than a numbers game.
Your reasoning is flawed. Only a small percentage of law school applicants use LSN so to speak about its data as widely conclusive is a major error buddy. And yes, I know law school is mostly about GPA and LSAT that is a given. But for schools like berk who use a more holistic approach I am wondering the weight of a powerful LOR. I don't think hyperboles like that should be thrown around like on this site, a weaker person would have taken that to heart.

You seem unpleasant.

PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:50 pm

Do you guys even see your LORs? I can't view mine on the LSAC website (Probably cuz I waived my right to view it, I figured it was appropriate to do)

Sideshow Raheem · Post by **Sideshow Raheem** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:59 pm

What the fuck is OU?

rrwwa · Post by **rrwwa** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:09 pm

I agree that GPA and LSAT are the main determinants, and that you need the right numbers to get you in. You're not going to get acceptances your numbers don't warrant just because you have a single strong LOR.

On the other hand, I also had a really, really strong LOR and I think I outperformed my numbers in terms of scholarship offers. I ended up with a generous named scholarship at a T-14 with a GPA below 25th percentile for the school (LSAT above 75th though). In my application cycle, there are 11 people on LSN with better numbers who didn't get the scholarship offer.

Full disclosure: I also had some other softs, like good work experience and an elite undergrad. I'm not a URM though. So who knows what it came down to, but since the question of how much weight is given to softs comes up a lot, just thought I'd throw this out there.

But, I got WL at Stanford (didn't apply to Yale), so numbers are still a prerequisite.

PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:11 pm

Sideshow Raheem wrote:What the fuck is OU?

University of Oklahoma I'm assuming

LawsRUs · Post by **LawsRUs** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:48 pm

To one of the posters above, I don't think LORs will have an effect on scholarship offers. It might have depended more on how much they needed your numbers at a certain point in the cycle and how much you were convincing in your negotiations.

OP, your URM status will help in your cycle, but LORs will be negligible, as Mack said. Admission officers get thousands of applicants, with at least two LORs for each applicant. They've read every possible thing that anyone can ever say about an applicant. That you read your LOR already kind of weakens its strength though, but not much. Personally I wouldn't think more about it.

rnoodles · Post by **rnoodles** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:01 pm

Personally, while numbers are very VERY important, I don't think I'd be in the position I am with $ had it not been for one of my LORs. Good luck with your cycle!

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:15 pm

NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.
gonna pretend i didn't see this. first of all you better have some hard evidence to back that kind of statement up. and number two THEN WHY WOULD THEY ASK FOR THEM.

Relax, d00d

Hand · Post by **Hand** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:17 pm

PoopNpants wrote:
Sideshow Raheem wrote:What the fuck is OU?
University of Oklahoma I'm assuming

Yeah haven't you heard of the Nigerian University of Oklahoma I hear it's a great party school where the profs write letters that'll bring you to tears

Hand · Post by **Hand** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:18 pm

DCNTUA wrote:
NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
NigeranOU wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I kind of doubt law schools even read the LoRs for 90%+ of their applicants.
gonna pretend i didn't see this. first of all you better have some hard evidence to back that kind of statement up. and number two THEN WHY WOULD THEY ASK FOR THEM.
The best evidence is data - look at websites like LawSchoolNumbers and you'll see that looking at an applicant's undergraduate GPA and LSAT is enough to predict their admissions decisions - and scholarship offers - an astonishing amount of the time. If the softer factors like letters of recommendation, essays, extracurricular, etc. were actually meaningful to the process, then you would see messier and noisier data. GPA and LSAT scores might be a factor, but they couldn't predict the whole story.

Yes, it's hyperbole to say they don't read them for 90%+ of applicants, but I doubt by much. They surely will look for red flags if nothing else, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming that law school is little more than a numbers game.
Your reasoning is flawed. Only a small percentage of law school applicants use LSN so to speak about its data as widely conclusive is a major error buddy. And yes, I know law school is mostly about GPA and LSAT that is a given. But for schools like berk who use a more holistic approach I am wondering the weight of a powerful LOR. I don't think hyperboles like that should be thrown around like on this site, a weaker person would have taken that to heart.
You seem unpleasant.

gonna pretend I didn't see this

scone · Post by **scone** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:58 pm

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:57 pm

All top schools expect "good" letters of rec. They're something that can hurt you if you have really shitty LORs, but won't make you outperform your numbers.

I had meh recs from a couple TAs and only one I'd call good from a former boss, S and H didn't care.

cdotson2 · Post by **cdotson2** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:17 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:All top schools expect "good" letters of rec. They're something that can hurt you if you have really shitty LORs, but won't make you outperform your numbers.

I had meh recs from a couple TAs and only one I'd call good from a former boss, S and H didn't care.

do you think better recs would have gotten you a regular admit instead of in off the waitlist? or do you think it wouldn't have mattered? (actual question, not trying to be a dick)