Is THIS JD/MBA worth it? Forum

[RobertBets]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING

Is the JD/MBA worth it for me if:

1) It's at a solid program (UVA law/Darden business)
2) It's mostly free (the only money lost would be the one year of lost income thanks to the GI Bill), so after factoring in living expenses, when I graduate I'll have roughly 50,000 dollars in my pocket from saved income and be debt free (albeit 36 years old)
3) I want to live in the southeast my whole life (Atlanta, Nashville, DC, Charlotte, Orlando, etc...and maybe Dallas. I have strong ties to several of these.)
3) I know I want to start my career in law, but am open-minded at this point as to litigation vs. transactional (although if I had to pick today, I would choose litigation and, though I know this is very hard to count on, clerk and hopefully work at an elite lit shop like W&C or Bondurant in Atlanta. But again, I'm very open-minded as to lit vs corporate.
4) I know I want to start in law (either Biglaw or an elite boutique), but I'm not sure if I want to stay in it my whole life (I may, I may not. Won't know until I start practicing.)
5) If I did leave law one day, I would not consider going into financial services. The only exit options out of law I would consider would be consulting, an executive position in a company, real estate, franchising a chic-fil-a (halfway serious on this one), or entrepreneurship (I think a tight-knit alumni network might be especially helpful on the last one)

Here are the pros I see:

1) Personal satisfaction. Honestly that would probably be the main reason. And I would hate to let the fourth year of my GI Bill go to waste.
2) Tight-knit alumni network in the region I want to live. In the professional world, I just figure it's probably a good thing to know people.
3) Maybe give me some business acumen I would not acquire otherwise, which is always a good thing.
4) Maybe give me the extra resume/skills boost needed to transition into one of the aforementioned exit options if I end up practicing litigation and not transactional (example: I decide I want to leave law, but I'm a litigator. I want to go for an executive position in a company. I would otherwise have no shot because I was in lit and not transactional, but since the CEO or CFO or whatever was a graduate of Darden business and I have the same MBA he/she has, they may decide to give me a shot). I just don't see how hanging out with future CEO's for a year while not accumulating extra debt could be a bad thing in any way. But I am definitely ignorant, so that's why I'm asking TLS.

Possible Cons:

1) The lost year of income and time in the work force (I will already be 36 when I graduate).
2) Maybe would make lit groups suspicious if I decide I want to do lit and judges may be suspicious as well if I try to clerk (although I hope they would not think that way if I told them it was mainly for personal satisfaction and I wouldn't have gone for the MBA if the GI Bill wasn't paying for it)
3) Maybe be perceived as a flight risk by transactional groups (although I hope that would not be the case. And I hear that perception may be different/nonexistent in the Southeast vs. NYC)
4) Logistics. OCI/Summer associate position timing, having three law school summers instead of two, firms want me to start working for them but I still have another year to go, etc. may be tricky
5) Increased academic difficulty (Not sure about this one)

Sorry for the long post. What do you think, TLS? Is it worth it? Thanks so much!

[fratstar1]

I think you can do all of this without an MBA. Ur not picking up debt though and staying in school an extra year could be fun, I think ur fine either way.

[RobertBets]

I think you can do all of this without an MBA. Ur not picking up debt though and staying in school an extra year could be fun, I think ur fine either way.

Thank you for your reply. I added another pro to the list. Check out number four on the pros list. What are your thoughts on that?

[RobertBets]

Also I'm new to TLS, so I am still unfamiliar with the rules. Is it against the rules to double-post? Or could I post this in another forum also? Would there be a better forum to put it in?

[A. Nony Mouse]

It is against the rules to double-post. This forum is fine and will get as many responses as any of the others, I think.

[fratstar1]

idk I'm not familiar enough with business to know the hiring process for companies like that. I can tell you that if you started in business with a jd/mba it would be VERY difficult to transition into an associate big law track (you might be able to get a staff attorney job but that would probably be a downgrade) because the hiring process is routinely done over the summer. Odds are as your legal career develops its going to be the network and skills you cultivate as a professional that will dictate your exit options, not your pedigree.

[CanadianWolf]

Definitely worthwhile in your situation. Low cost & from a highly respected program. Should make for a solid exit strategy if you prefer to go in-house after working in biglaw.

[Instinctive]

Current JD/MBA here.


Why do you think you'll have 3 law school summers or OCI issues? The extra summer can complicate some things, but is generally a huge boost if you use it well. I viewed it very much as a pro when I decided to go for this degree.

The 2nd summer seems to be the one where people at times run into trouble, because firms expect you to be done the next summer. But your post-1L summer will likely be treated no differently than any other post-1L summer. If you just go through OCI with everyone else before 2L, it seems that it often works out just fine for JD/MBAs.

But if you want to get really creative, that extra summer allows you to try a lot of new opportunities that many don't have, and then your third summer is like a normal law student's second summer. You can go in house or to a non-profit you really like for a summer, you can work business side following your MBA1 year, etc. You can also just try to go to a firm all 3 years, but that seems like a waste to me.

Just one man's two cents. Congrats on the option, and thanks for serving. Feel free to PM.

[RobertBets]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Current JD/MBA here.


Why do you think you'll have 3 law school summers or OCI issues? The extra summer can complicate some things, but is generally a huge boost if you use it well. I viewed it very much as a pro when I decided to go for this degree.

The 2nd summer seems to be the one where people at times run into trouble, because firms expect you to be done the next summer. But your post-1L summer will likely be treated no differently than any other post-1L summer. If you just go through OCI with everyone else before 2L, it seems that it often works out just fine for JD/MBAs.

But if you want to get really creative, that extra summer allows you to try a lot of new opportunities that many don't have, and then your third summer is like a normal law student's second summer. You can go in house or to a non-profit you really like for a summer, you can work business side following your MBA1 year, etc. You can also just try to go to a firm all 3 years, but that seems like a waste to me.

Just one man's two cents. Congrats on the option, and thanks for serving. Feel free to PM.

Thanks for your advice. Are you planning on doing lit or transactional? Have you gotten any raised-eyebrows from firms?

[RobertBets]

Bump

[joejoe]

I am kind of surprised at the poll results. I voted that its worth it too, but most lawyers I know are against it.

[RobertBets]

I am kind of surprised at the poll results. I voted that its worth it too, but most lawyers I know are against it.

Thanks for replying. Can you tell me why they are against it?

[joejoe]

I am kind of surprised at the poll results. I voted that its worth it too, but most lawyers I know are against it.

Thanks for replying. Can you tell me why they are against it?

The reasons vary, but largely for the same reason that they are against the LLM. If its not required for the license, they don't see the point of extra debt and the extra year not working.

[Johann]

i didn't read anything but saw the mba was free. i don't know why you would pass up 1 year of a free education (school rocks) that would essentially double thei ndustries you are qualified for. lots of people hate biglaw, so seems like a smart hedge.

[RobertBets]

I am kind of surprised at the poll results. I voted that its worth it too, but most lawyers I know are against it.

Thanks for replying. Can you tell me why they are against it?

The reasons vary, but largely for the same reason that they are against the LLM. If its not required for the license, they don't see the point of extra debt and the extra year not working.

Ok interesting. Do you think they would look down on potential associates in the hiring process for doing it? I would not even be considering it if the GI Bill was not paying for it. I just would hate to see my last year of it not be used. And I just don't see how hanging out with a bunch of future CEO's for a year would be a bad thing in any way. But I'm definitely trying to get a feel as to how big a negative it will be on my resume for law firms.

[RobertBets]

Bump.

[Instinctive]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Current JD/MBA here.


Why do you think you'll have 3 law school summers or OCI issues? The extra summer can complicate some things, but is generally a huge boost if you use it well. I viewed it very much as a pro when I decided to go for this degree.

The 2nd summer seems to be the one where people at times run into trouble, because firms expect you to be done the next summer. But your post-1L summer will likely be treated no differently than any other post-1L summer. If you just go through OCI with everyone else before 2L, it seems that it often works out just fine for JD/MBAs.

But if you want to get really creative, that extra summer allows you to try a lot of new opportunities that many don't have, and then your third summer is like a normal law student's second summer. You can go in house or to a non-profit you really like for a summer, you can work business side following your MBA1 year, etc. You can also just try to go to a firm all 3 years, but that seems like a waste to me.

Just one man's two cents. Congrats on the option, and thanks for serving. Feel free to PM.

Thanks for your advice. Are you planning on doing lit or transactional? Have you gotten any raised-eyebrows from firms?

I will not be practicing law. I see the JD as the value add, not the other way around. But that doesn't change what all the other JD/MBAs at my school discuss, as 4/5 are going law route.

[Hornet2011]

While I am biased as I am considering going the same route, slightly different situation (F500 sales manager, 27), I think given your situation the JD/MBA is a smart decision. Even if you go the law route first and then, maybe, go into business later I think it could only help. Additionally, and while only you can find this out, there are many people who go to law school only to find out they hate it.

With the only actual cost here being a year of missed salary, (slightly offset by having a 3rd summer) balanced with what could be a strong positive factor for the next 30 or so years of your career, I think it makes sense to go if you feel like it is worth it to you.

[Glasseyes]

Current 2L in a standard JD program, just slightly older than you are now (presumably), so take this for what little it's worth. That is to say, I have minimal experience with the legal hiring process (OCI is in 2 weeks) and none with dual degrees, just with being an old codger in a young man's game.

I say do it. The usual resistance to JD/MBA seems to be that it's expensive, compounded by the loss of an extra year's salary, and that it doesn't offer much of an edge for hiring into a straight legal career. I would argue that you could justify the second degree pretty easily to an employer, but the benefit in experience/wisdom for most students will be greatly outweighed by the cost. For younger students, the dual degree may also give the appearance of a flight risk. My experience as an older student—which amounts to a whole bunch of informational interview / coffee dates, a good number of friends practicing at all levels and in all industries, and only a little bit of direct interview/callback experience—suggests that the rules are slightly different for us than our younger counterparts. If you can craft your narrative well and sell it convincingly, people will be pretty likely to believe that you know exactly what you are doing, that you are not a flight risk, and that you had valid reason to pursue the dual degree. I would assume you could simply say that the opportunity was there and you wanted to maximize your potential, and that a deeper understanding of business can only help you better understand your clients' needs and concerns. The obvious trick is NOT to tell potential employers your exit strategy and focus instead on what the degree brings to the table for the current job. You want to make sure employers know that the dual-degree isn't an expression of indecisiveness or wanderlust, and that you have a reason for doing the things you are doing. It's not necessary to have every element of your story carved into stone before school starts, but it's good to be thinking about it now.

Two things about being an older student: (1) as I mentioned above, if you can communicate clearly, calmly, and professionally, and you can deliver a well-crafted narrative, you may have something of an advantage over your classmates. No one really knows how non-traditional students fare in direct comparison to younger law students because there's a much smaller sample size and firms seem to take varying approaches, though from what I've seen they seem to do well if they have their shit together (i.e., the above-mentioned qualities). Reading your post, it seems like you've put a lot of thought into this process, and that's a large part of crafting the appropriate narrative. (2) Employers can't legally ask your age, so if you can appear younger than you actually are, that can be a plus. (Caveat: just because employers can't legally ask your age DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY WON'T.) People often think I'm in my late 20s, which seems like a perfectly ambiguous place to be for hiring purposes: mature but not over the hill; responsible but capable of growth; etc. I know older classmates who embrace their age, but like so many things in law school, I like to keep things vague but suggestive.

tl;dr: You're automatically going to be different than your peers, so I say you may as well run with it. This seems like an excellent position to be in, and you seem to have a great sense of personal direction to guide you. Best of luck.

[RobertBets]

Wow thanks for all the replies everyone. I'm honestly kind of surprised at the overwhelming poll results; I thought TLS absolutely despised the whole JD/MBA thing even if it were free because it made firms suspicious. I would still like to hear more about that if anyone has any experience to share in that area. I'm definitely strongly considering it at this point.

[Glasseyes]

Wow thanks for all the replies everyone. I'm honestly kind of surprised at the overwhelming poll results; I thought TLS absolutely despised the whole JD/MBA thing even if it were free because it made firms suspicious. I would still like to hear more about that if anyone has any experience to share in that area. I'm definitely strongly considering it at this point.

Yeah, bear in mind that my whole giant answer above comes from someone who has no idea if the dual degree specifically makes firms suspicious. I can theorize that it might apply more to younger students, but I really can't say. Hopefully someone with experience in legal hiring can chime in.

[krads153]

I thought only "M7" MBA programs were worth it? (The M7 being Harvard, Wharton, Columbia, Chicago, Kellogg, Stanford, MIT.) If it's free, it doesn't matter, but you can't redo an MBA...so you if you are ever serious about business, I might only go to one of the M7.

[Mack.Hambleton]

I thought only "M7" MBA programs were worth it? (The M7 being Harvard, Wharton, Columbia, Chicago, Kellogg, Stanford, MIT.) If it's free, it doesn't matter, but you can't redo an MBA...so you if you are ever serious about business, I might only go to one of the M7.

He wants to start in law anyway, and live in the Southeast

[Instinctive]

I thought only "M7" MBA programs were worth it? (The M7 being Harvard, Wharton, Columbia, Chicago, Kellogg, Stanford, MIT.) If it's free, it doesn't matter, but you can't redo an MBA...so you if you are ever serious about business, I might only go to one of the M7.

He wants to start in law anyway, and live in the Southeast

Darden's a business school worth going to. I'd add Yale SOM to that list also. Duke Fuqua also strong.

[RobertBets]

Would the general consensus be that Darden has one of the strongest business alumni networks in the southeast?

Also, on a somewhat relevant note, does anyone want to comment on litigation vs transactional practice? Like I said, I'm open minded as I have not even started law school yet, but if I had to pick today, there is no way I would not choose litigation. From what I know about corporate, I don't know why anyone would ever choose that route (not judging as I assume there is a reason-I just don't know what that reason is and I would love to find out from somebody). You are essentially the banker's/executive's/general counsel's servant. You are at their mercy. At any time they can make you do pretty much whatever they want or they will switch firms. The lifestyle is horribly unpredictable. You are treated rudely by clients who think they could do your job better than you and they only see you as a necessary evil and they will absolutely resent every penny they have to pay you (this is probably somewhat true in lit as well). You are seen as no value-added. The work seems boring. Sure, you get to plan the strategy of companies which can be fun, but you could do that even more if you were actually part of the company.

All of these are preconceptions that I have, and I will be the first to admit they could be wrong. And I also hear this varies by location. Like in Atlanta lawyers of all types have generally more respect from the business community than NYC. I would like to learn more about it. I want to know what makes some people really enjoy corporate law.