WVU vs. Maine Forum

[ms2dai]

So I visited WVU this weekend and didn't get a feel for it (the school or the surroundings). Not sure if it was the influence of my fellow TLS posters but maybe you guys have won on that front.

[ms2dai]

Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?

No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...

That's a really bad justification.

Yeah there's more to it but that is the concise version -- definitely not the whole "justification." It's time to start on the path to my legal career. Although it seems optimistic I believe everything will work itself out. I've seen people at unranked schools make it out ok and although I don't know all the details of their situation they are doing well.

That's just a really poor basis to make such a huge life decision.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

I'll let you know how it turns out ... after the first year. Maybe it won't be that **crossing fingers**

[lavarman84]

Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?

No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...

That's a really bad justification.

Yeah there's more to it but that is the concise version -- definitely not the whole "justification." It's time to start on the path to my legal career. Although it seems optimistic I believe everything will work itself out. I've seen people at unranked schools make it out ok and although I don't know all the details of their situation they are doing well.

I have too. But the odds are greater that you aren't one of those people than they are that you are. Keep in mind that every person going to Maine or WVU will hold the same belief that you do. They'll be the one that makes it.

In the end, nobody here can choose for you but you're making a very risky decision without the sort of advantages you need to manage that risk (ties, connections, etc.).

Delaying your path to a legal career by a year isn't going to kill you...but it could make a major difference in how successful your legal career is if you raise your LSAT and gain acceptances to better schools or get a lot more scholarship money to one of the schools you're considering.

[PoopNpants]

Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?

No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...

Whatever dude do what you what, seriously nobody here cares about you or your future we are giving you purely objective advice completely based on statistical evidence. Good luck to you cuz your sure as shit gonna need it

[basedvulpes]

Post removed.

[Nomo]

I just want to point out that good grades only matter to the extent that entry level hiring is meritocratic. Biglaw cares a lot about grades. DOJ cares a lot about grades. Judges care a lot about grades.

Small firms tend to care a lot less about grades. And that's a huge detriment to people who lack deep ties because small firms tend to prefer people they know or that their friends know (this is how most hiring in the U.S. works). Small firms have good reasons to pick local students who are recommended by other lawyers in the community: those are the types of people who have a large network of friends and acquaintances that could become clients in the next few years.

You can't compete with the kid who grew up in Bangor and went to the University of Maine for undergrad. It won't matter that you're in the top quarter of you're class and the Bangor kid is in the bottom half. Bangor kid gets the job before you every time.

[ms2dai]

Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?

No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...

That's a really bad justification.

Yeah there's more to it but that is the concise version -- definitely not the whole "justification." It's time to start on the path to my legal career. Although it seems optimistic I believe everything will work itself out. I've seen people at unranked schools make it out ok and although I don't know all the details of their situation they are doing well.

I have too. But the odds are greater that you aren't one of those people than they are that you are. Keep in mind that every person going to Maine or WVU will hold the same belief that you do. They'll be the one that makes it.

In the end, nobody here can choose for you but you're making a very risky decision without the sort of advantages you need to manage that risk (ties, connections, etc.).

Delaying your path to a legal career by a year isn't going to kill you...but it could make a major difference in how successful your legal career is if you raise your LSAT and gain acceptances to better schools or get a lot more scholarship money to one of the schools you're considering.

I'll hope that somewhere on one of the continents something I have learned out of the three years is needed to land me a job. I was looking at the stats today and it said out of 43K law school grads about 60% found/had a job. I'm hoping to slip my way into that 60% some way some how come graduation time. Maybe that is optimistic...

So the issue isn't about the difference in the legal theory or in the opportunities for learning that exist at either school but instead about the post-grad portion???

[ms2dai]

Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?

No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...

Whatever dude do what you what, seriously nobody here cares about you or your future we are giving you purely objective advice completely based on statistical evidence. Good luck to you cuz your sure as shit gonna need it

Don't be like that. I'm hoping to not need those "I told you so" comments...

[Traynor Brah]

hey kid it's your funeral.

[ms2dai]

I just want to point out that good grades only matter to the extent that entry level hiring is meritocratic. Biglaw cares a lot about grades. DOJ cares a lot about grades. Judges care a lot about grades.

Small firms tend to care a lot less about grades. And that's a huge detriment to people who lack deep ties because small firms tend to prefer people they know or that their friends know (this is how most hiring in the U.S. works). Small firms have good reasons to pick local students who are recommended by other lawyers in the community: those are the types of people who have a large network of friends and acquaintances that could become clients in the next few years.

You can't compete with the kid who grew up in Bangor and went to the University of Maine for undergrad. It won't matter that you're in the top quarter of you're class and the Bangor kid is in the bottom half. Bangor kid gets the job before you every time.

Is that from experience? If so, were you able to look for something outside of Maine? Take other bar exams? Or are you limited to just Maine?

So networking events do not help with building a relationship with WVers or Mainers?? What is the benchmark for "deep ties"?

[lavarman84]

I'll hope that somewhere on one of the continents something I have learned out of the three years is needed to land me a job. I was looking at the stats today and it said out of 43K law school grads about 60% found/had a job. I'm hoping to slip my way into that 60% some way some how come graduation time. Maybe that is optimistic...

So the issue isn't about the difference in the legal theory or in the opportunities for learning that exist at either school but instead about the post-grad portion???

More or less. It's about your chances of getting a job. That's where the major difference lies.

Assuming the 60% figure is accurate, you have to keep in mind that at the elite law schools, you have 90+% landing jobs. The further down the totem pole you go, the more the number shrinks. So while 60% might be the overall number, according to LST, your percent chance at WVU is more like 57.4% and 46.3% at Maine.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/

How much would you be paying at WVU?

[ms2dai]

I'll hope that somewhere on one of the continents something I have learned out of the three years is needed to land me a job. I was looking at the stats today and it said out of 43K law school grads about 60% found/had a job. I'm hoping to slip my way into that 60% some way some how come graduation time. Maybe that is optimistic...

So the issue isn't about the difference in the legal theory or in the opportunities for learning that exist at either school but instead about the post-grad portion???

More or less. It's about your chances of getting a job. That's where the major difference lies.

Assuming the 60% figure is accurate, you have to keep in mind that at the elite law schools, you have 90+% landing jobs. The further down the totem pole you go, the more the number shrinks. So while 60% might be the overall number, according to LST, your percent chance at WVU is more like 57.4% and 46.3% at Maine.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/

How much would you be paying at WVU?

This is the article I was referring to http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2015-law ... -rankings/. Not sure how much weight it holds.

Sticker at WVU. I would have to apply for scholarships 2L and 3L. At Maine $10K scholly and work-study.

[fredfred]

I'll hope that somewhere on one of the continents something I have learned out of the three years is needed to land me a job. I was looking at the stats today and it said out of 43K law school grads about 60% found/had a job. I'm hoping to slip my way into that 60% some way some how come graduation time. Maybe that is optimistic...

So the issue isn't about the difference in the legal theory or in the opportunities for learning that exist at either school but instead about the post-grad portion???

More or less. It's about your chances of getting a job. That's where the major difference lies.

Assuming the 60% figure is accurate, you have to keep in mind that at the elite law schools, you have 90+% landing jobs. The further down the totem pole you go, the more the number shrinks. So while 60% might be the overall number, according to LST, your percent chance at WVU is more like 57.4% and 46.3% at Maine.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/

How much would you be paying at WVU?

This is the article I was referring to http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2015-law ... -rankings/. Not sure how much weight it holds.

Sticker at WVU. I would have to apply for scholarships 2L and 3L. At Maine $10K scholly and work-study.

hey man you can pm me if you want but I had your mindset a year ago. Lets just say I took the TLS advice and it worked out much better for me. Honestly go flip a coin. Flip it 10 times. However many times heads comes up out of those ten is the percentage chance you have of getting a job from either Maine or WVU. It may come up 10 out of 10, or it may come up 0 out of 10. Statistics show it should be 5 out of 10. More likely than not, the coin is you no matter how hard you work or how hard you try. Any time it comes up tails is a legit chance of you never ever getting a job with your JD and you still having 250k in debt. Be reasonable and listen to these nice people. My GF made your mistake and it has devastated her life. She owes the government 280k and got a job with her JD that pays 70k a year. It will take 25 years for her to pay off her debt with a huge portion of her paycheck going straight to loans. Also, her school was ranked in the same group as your two choices. She had ties in the area and worked hard for a job and was top 10%. Out of her 5 friends, she is the only one with a job. Yet they all owe a ton of money. 20% chance of getting a job and her group worked extremely hard and all graduated top 25%. Don't be my gf. (I still love her even if her debt is crushing.)

[lavarman84]

I'll hope that somewhere on one of the continents something I have learned out of the three years is needed to land me a job. I was looking at the stats today and it said out of 43K law school grads about 60% found/had a job. I'm hoping to slip my way into that 60% some way some how come graduation time. Maybe that is optimistic...

So the issue isn't about the difference in the legal theory or in the opportunities for learning that exist at either school but instead about the post-grad portion???

More or less. It's about your chances of getting a job. That's where the major difference lies.

Assuming the 60% figure is accurate, you have to keep in mind that at the elite law schools, you have 90+% landing jobs. The further down the totem pole you go, the more the number shrinks. So while 60% might be the overall number, according to LST, your percent chance at WVU is more like 57.4% and 46.3% at Maine.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/

How much would you be paying at WVU?

This is the article I was referring to http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2015-law ... -rankings/. Not sure how much weight it holds.

Sticker at WVU. I would have to apply for scholarships 2L and 3L. At Maine $10K scholly and work-study.

Are you paying out of state sticker?

If you're set on these two schools, the smartest thing you can do is take a year off and retake the LSAT for scholarship money. Hell, if you're set on WVU, take a year off, establish residency in WV, and work there.(and retake the LSAT) That, alone, will save you a lot of money.

Forcing yourself to go law school with the options you have right now just isn't a sound decision. For example, if you're paying sticker out of state at West Virginia, your cost of attendance will likely be over $150,000. That's a lot of debt.

If you want to go to WVU, be patient. Work hard preparing for the LSAT, retake it, and score a major scholarship.

If you're willing to work hard enough and you're intelligent enough to finish near the top of your law school class, you can work hard enough to crush the LSAT. Being patient is the right move here.

[Traynor Brah]

Suicide by plunger up butt hole > wvu law at sticker

[ms2dai]

hey man you can pm me if you want but I had your mindset a year ago. Lets just say I took the TLS advice and it worked out much better for me. Honestly go flip a coin. Flip it 10 times. However many times heads comes up out of those ten is the percentage chance you have of getting a job from either Maine or WVU. It may come up 10 out of 10, or it may come up 0 out of 10. Statistics show it should be 5 out of 10. More likely than not, the coin is you no matter how hard you work or how hard you try. Any time it comes up tails is a legit chance of you never ever getting a job with your JD and you still having 250k in debt. Be reasonable and listen to these nice people. My GF made your mistake and it has devastated her life. She owes the government 280k and got a job with her JD that pays 70k a year. It will take 25 years for her to pay off her debt with a huge portion of her paycheck going straight to loans. Also, her school was ranked in the same group as your two choices. She had ties in the area and worked hard for a job and was top 10%. Out of her 5 friends, she is the only one with a job. Yet they all owe a ton of money. 20% chance of getting a job and her group worked extremely hard and all graduated top 25%. Don't be my gf. (I still love her even if her debt is crushing.)[/quote]

Yikes. So all these people are just going after this dream and not finding a job ... hmmm. No bueno.

[ms2dai]

Suicide by plunger up butt hole > wvu law at sticker

HAHAHA

[ms2dai]

I'll hope that somewhere on one of the continents something I have learned out of the three years is needed to land me a job. I was looking at the stats today and it said out of 43K law school grads about 60% found/had a job. I'm hoping to slip my way into that 60% some way some how come graduation time. Maybe that is optimistic...

So the issue isn't about the difference in the legal theory or in the opportunities for learning that exist at either school but instead about the post-grad portion???

More or less. It's about your chances of getting a job. That's where the major difference lies.

Assuming the 60% figure is accurate, you have to keep in mind that at the elite law schools, you have 90+% landing jobs. The further down the totem pole you go, the more the number shrinks. So while 60% might be the overall number, according to LST, your percent chance at WVU is more like 57.4% and 46.3% at Maine.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/

How much would you be paying at WVU?

This is the article I was referring to http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2015-law ... -rankings/. Not sure how much weight it holds.

Sticker at WVU. I would have to apply for scholarships 2L and 3L. At Maine $10K scholly and work-study.

Are you paying out of state sticker?

If you're set on these two schools, the smartest thing you can do is take a year off and retake the LSAT for scholarship money. Hell, if you're set on WVU, take a year off, establish residency in WV, and work there.(and retake the LSAT) That, alone, will save you a lot of money.

Forcing yourself to go law school with the options you have right now just isn't a sound decision. For example, if you're paying sticker out of state at West Virginia, your cost of attendance will likely be over $150,000. That's a lot of debt.

If you want to go to WVU, be patient. Work hard preparing for the LSAT, retake it, and score a major scholarship.

If you're willing to work hard enough and you're intelligent enough to finish near the top of your law school class, you can work hard enough to crush the LSAT. Being patient is the right move here.

I'm not set on them but those are the two that have come through so far. I am waitlisted at a couple others but we all know how that goes ... I MAY or MAY NOT get "the" call.

[lavarman84]

I'm not set on them but those are the two that have come through so far. I am waitlisted at a couple others but we all know how that goes ... I MAY or MAY NOT get "the" call.

Yep, I know that feeling. I prefer the rejection to that purgatory.

[ms2dai]

I'm not set on them but those are the two that have come through so far. I am waitlisted at a couple others but we all know how that goes ... I MAY or MAY NOT get "the" call.

Yep, I know that feeling. I prefer the rejection to that purgatory.

It is painful especially as time counts down and orientations are starting soon

[fredfred]

Yikes. So all these people are just going after this dream and not finding a job ... hmmm. No bueno.

Yes and her school is ranked higher than either of WVU and Maine and it is in a major metropolitian center. Way more opportunities than WVU or Maine can offer. Can you realistically see yourself owing 200k in REAL money to the government the day you graduate and no job? Go flip a coin once. For real. Because if it comes up the wrong way, you are screwed. Just listen to me dude and don't be an idiot. My GF's friends will never ever have a financially secure future, even if they find a JD job. This is at a better school than your choices, in a large city, with people having ties. All three things your choices lack.

If you listen to anyone, listen to her. She is reading this and is pleading with me to explain to you in the right words how screwed her friends are, not even just her.

[shump92]

It is painful especially as time counts down and orientations are starting soon

OP, please listen to what most of us have been saying. With careers like law, it is much smarter to be at schools that will make it easier for you to do well. When I was at a top UG, all I had to do was try in class to have tons of great opportunities. It makes a lot of sense IMO to try to have that type of environment for professional school. The legal market isn't easy even for several T14 students. You can find posts in many threads here that argue against people taking sticker price from all schools (even HYS is very contested).

What you are really talking about here is not having the ideal option for this one year of your life. Why does it hurt to take a few months to bump up your LSAT a few points and have some scholarship offers? Even if either of these schools was perfect for your goals, I'm pretty sure the consensus would be that a retake would be in order to avoid sticker. You seem to care a lot about your legal career, and most of us keep posting here to try to help you be better prepared to start practicing. If you can argue with us for this long, you can definitely crush your original LSAT score. Go do that to make sure that you don't ruin your career prospects before you even start working. Good luck.

[Clearly]

OP. Please set a reminder in your phone/gmail calendar/whatever to come back in a year and again in 3 to tell the truth, so maybe you can be the martyr that saves the next version of you from the stupid thing you're about to do. You need to keep in mind that even if you are in the 60%, you're still only likely to make 50k a year. You literally can not afford your loan payments and life, EVEN IF luck shines on you...

[Johann]

youre dumb for going to maine to work in dc but everyone in here should stop talking like PAYE and PSLF don't exist. making up your own hypothetical to stretch the truth loses you credibility and then people don't listen to you.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Presuming neither of those programs get gutted in the next 10-20 years, not everyone is eligible for PSLF and not everyone is as gung-ho as you are about having debt hanging over their head that they're never going to be able to pay off for the next 20-25 years.