How far down the ladder does LS at sticker become an objectively bad decision? Forum

jetsfan1 · Post by **jetsfan1** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:11 pm

Curious about this. Obviously you want to minimize COA as much as possible, but in a vaccum, when is paying sticker objectively a bad choice? Yeah yeah it differs by your goals, current job, personal preferences, etc., but let's generalize a bit here. HYS? CCN? None? I don't mean this as a comparison, as in "I would never pay sticker at HYS because I'd take the CCN/lower T14 money instead." That's a whole seperate argument that's been discussed at nauseum here. More along the lines of is HYS/whatever level of school a good investment in and of itself? Where is the cut off between schools where you would say ok it's worth the money/it's not a bad choice (even if better options are available) vs. the risk/potential return at this school is not worth it.

ETA: I guess another way to put this would be if no schollys/aid existed and to go to LS you MUST pay sticker (and take out loans to do it), where would be the lowest you'd consider?

lavarman84 · Post by **lavarman84** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:39 pm

Depends on how you're financing it. If you're financing with loans, anything below HYS is a bad idea.(and that's assuming you can get some need based aid at HYS...so not even true sticker there) CCN maybe arguable but if you can get into CCN, you likely have a scholarship at a lower t14 so you better have a good reason for why CCN.

But it also depends on some other factors.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:44 pm

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El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:52 pm

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:57 pm

LawsRUs · Post by **LawsRUs** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:59 pm

jetsfan1 · Post by **jetsfan1** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:10 pm

For those of you saying Y, are you saying that going to H or S at sticker is a bad career/economic move? Again, the question isn't if there are better options but if that decision in and of itself is inherently bad.

El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:13 pm

jetsfan1 wrote:For those of you saying Y, are you saying that going to H or S at sticker is a bad career/economic move? Again, the question isn't if there are better options but if that decision in and of itself is inherently bad.

being a debt peon for a decade is pretty inherently bad

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:34 pm

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El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:36 pm

Seamus887 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
jetsfan1 wrote:For those of you saying Y, are you saying that going to H or S at sticker is a bad career/economic move? Again, the question isn't if there are better options but if that decision in and of itself is inherently bad.
being a debt peon for a decade is pretty inherently bad
If it takes you a decade you can't budget.

ok smug 0L

jetsfan1 · Post by **jetsfan1** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:07 pm

Eh. Yeah being in debt sucks and should be avoided, but by itself that doesn't make something a bad economic decision.

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:13 pm

I would say that it could only be objectively bad if it limits your career choices the first 5 or so years out of law school. If you initial debt makes you feel like you have to pursue an option just because it is lucrative, then you probably took on too many loans for the JD. I remember one of my DOJ supervisors telling me that people she knew would often take jobs early on at a big firm just to pay off their debt, but they would end up staying in that area because they became so used to the lifestyle associated with the higher salary. If you want that lifestyle, then sticker shouldn't be a big turnoff. Unless you don't perform well enough to have good options with the JD. That would be the other way that debt isn't worth it.

FirmBiz · Post by **FirmBiz** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:16 pm

Debt sucks, but some people have such a short term outlook that it's T14 or bust. As someone earlier suggested, what if you did liberal as a UG? What are you going to do with that? Work the register at best buy?

Law school is a huge risk, but it's better to swing for the fences and miss than to be in the position you are currently in.

Now, I wouldn't advocate sticker at a terrible school, not every situation is the same, but sticker at some schools isn't a terrible decision under certain circumstances.

brotherdarkness · Post by **brotherdarkness** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:19 pm

Seamus887 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
jetsfan1 wrote:For those of you saying Y, are you saying that going to H or S at sticker is a bad career/economic move? Again, the question isn't if there are better options but if that decision in and of itself is inherently bad.
being a debt peon for a decade is pretty inherently bad
If it takes you a decade you can't budget.

Oh sure, just live in squalor so that you can pay back Uncle Sam at ~8% ASAP.

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:23 pm

FirmBiz wrote:sticker at some schools isn't a terrible decision under certain circumstances.

Assuming you're going private sector and don't have family paying, I'm not sure what those circumstances are. I guess for the rare person who is only in at WUSTL and CLS/NYU maybe. Maybe.

lavarman84 · Post by **lavarman84** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:23 pm

FirmBiz wrote:Debt sucks, but some people have such a short term outlook that it's T14 or bust. As someone earlier suggested, what if you did liberal as a UG? What are you going to do with that? Work the register at best buy?

Law school is a huge risk, but it's better to swing for the fences and miss than to be in the position you are currently in.

Now, I wouldn't advocate sticker at a terrible school, not every situation is the same, but sticker at some schools isn't a terrible decision under certain circumstances.

Then work hard on prepping for the LSAT and get a scholarship somewhere.

And no, it's not better to swing for the fences and miss. Because if you swing for the fences at sticker and miss, you've now got a ton of debt with no job.

There are places where sticker is arguable. Those places are all T14. If you can't get a scholarship outside T14, I don't recommend going. Yea, you might end up being one of the people that succeeds. But at most these schools, chances are as good or better that you aren't one of those people.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:25 pm

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Big Dog · Post by **Big Dog** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:25 pm

I guess another way to put this would be if no schollys/aid existed and to go to LS you MUST pay sticker (and take out loans to do it),

then you should not go to law school, unless its the instate public, which is really cheap.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:26 pm

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FirmBiz · Post by **FirmBiz** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:27 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
jetsfan1 wrote:For those of you saying Y, are you saying that going to H or S at sticker is a bad career/economic move? Again, the question isn't if there are better options but if that decision in and of itself is inherently bad.
being a debt peon for a decade is pretty inherently bad
If it takes you a decade you can't budget.
Oh sure, just live in squalor so that you can pay back Uncle Sam at ~8% ASAP.

Not everyone needs to pay for their own living. You're forgetting that a lot of students that are going into law are 20-21 and are still at home.

brotherdarkness · Post by **brotherdarkness** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:30 pm

FirmBiz wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
jetsfan1 wrote:For those of you saying Y, are you saying that going to H or S at sticker is a bad career/economic move? Again, the question isn't if there are better options but if that decision in and of itself is inherently bad.
being a debt peon for a decade is pretty inherently bad
If it takes you a decade you can't budget.
Oh sure, just live in squalor so that you can pay back Uncle Sam at ~8% ASAP.
Not everyone needs to pay for their own living. You're forgetting that a lot of students that are going into law are 20-21 and are still at home.

I think living at home while going to law school is pretty abnormal. I'm sure there are some who do this, but I don't know any.

Anyways, answering this question based on the exception rather than the rule is foolish.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:30 pm

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FirmBiz · Post by **FirmBiz** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:31 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
FirmBiz wrote:sticker at some schools isn't a terrible decision under certain circumstances.
Assuming you're going private sector and don't have family paying, I'm not sure what those circumstances are. I guess for the rare person who is only in at WUSTL and CLS/NYU maybe. Maybe.

You could be in a school ranked 50-80 with a large or full and get into WUSTL or Cornell at sticker.

These things happen all the time, look at LSN, people have gotten into Cornell well below the median.

El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:31 pm

Seamus887 wrote:Look I am not saying go to any school and take any job and it's cool, but if you go to CCN and get a $160,000 starting salary, which you probably will if you want, then you can pay your debt off pretty fast. If you think living off $50,000ish after tax is living in squalor, then I guess I can't say much to that. The further down you go the riskier it is, but Cornell gives you a damn good shot of making enough to pay off your sticker debt as well. Also if you go to a top school and pursue PI your debt can be forgiven in like 5 years I believe. I just really think it's stupid to say no matter what Yale is the only one worth sticker.

i don't think this is accurate for any school

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:31 pm

Seamus887 wrote:Look I am not saying go to any school and take any job and it's cool, but if you go to CCN and get a $160,000 starting salary, which you probably will if you want, then you can pay your debt off pretty fast. If you think living off $50,000ish after tax is living in squalor, then I guess I can't say much to that. The further down you go the riskier it is, but Cornell gives you a damn good shot of making enough to pay off your sticker debt as well. Also if you go to a top school and pursue PI your debt can be forgiven in like 5 years I believe. I just really think it's stupid to say no matter what Yale is the only one worth sticker.

Sticker at CCN is gonna run you 300k. 400k if you pay it down over 10 years. Taking 10 years with 400k does not mean someone has an inability to budget.