171/3.63 What's my optimal move? Forum

[shuno17]

Hey fellow TLSers, a long time lurker here

To give you a bit of a background, I scored a 171 this June and I have a 3.63 GPA from a UG business school. I'm Interested in NY Biglaw.

Softs:
MS in accounting, GPA 3.85
1 year of FT work experience
GPA huge upward trend (4.0 & 3.97 in junior/senior year)

I'm debt averse. I need at least 15K per year+ to attend a school.

Yes I know, 171 falls under the retake zone and I will retake in Oct. But improvement is far from guaranteed at this point.

What would be the optimal move? ED NU doesn't sound too bad but would a couple more point in LSAT get me $$+ at better schools?

[KMart]

Blanket the t14 and negotiate scholarships against each other.

[WhatCouldHaveBeen]

Blanket the t14 and negotiate scholarships against each other.

This. Blanket t14 and see. Probs a longshot for NU ED with that GPA but who knows.

Don't know who told you 171 falls under the retake zone....yes, a few more points could be huge and if you're up for it then yes, go for the retake and have your apps ready for when that score comes in, but you'll be ok either way as many would do horrible things to others for a 171...I would.

I know someone with your identical lsat and a lower gpa who got 20k+ a year from two t14s.

[OhBoyOhBortles]

Blanket the t14 and negotiate scholarships against each other.

This. Blanket t14 and see. Probs a longshot for NU ED with that GPA but who knows.

Don't know who told you 171 falls under the retake zone....yes, a few more points could be huge and if you're up for it then yes, go for the retake and have your apps ready for when that score comes in, but you'll be ok either way as many would do horrible things to others for a 171...I would.

I know someone with your identical lsat and a lower gpa who got 20k+ a year from two t14s.

+1. You should be in for a good cycle, OP.

[Mullens]

Your numbers are in the range where I suggest you ED NU. Last cycle, several people got ED NU with an LSAT score over the median and a GPA below the median, but above the 25%. Not sure how it played out this cycle. If you're comfortable with NU and especially if you want to work in Chicago, I suggest you ED. You'll probably get some decent scholarships at lower T14s if you blanket, but not sure with your GPA if you will get 150k+.

If you retake October and your score goes up, I'd be more comfortable rolling the dice on blanketing, but if it doesn't then ED NU.

[OhBoyOhBortles]

You can blanket the t14 and ED NU. You just have to withdraw your other apps if you get it.

[Mullens]

You can blanket the t14 and ED NU. You just have to withdraw your other apps if you get it.

Yes but you should only do that if you're comfortable accepting ED NU. There's nothing worse than people who get it and then question if they could have gone to a better school.

[OhBoyOhBortles]

You can blanket the t14 and ED NU. You just have to withdraw your other apps if you get it.

Yes but you should only do that if you're comfortable accepting ED NU. There's nothing worse than people who get it and then question if they could have gone to a better school.

That's fair.

[shuno17]

Thanks for helpful suggestions.

My gut feeling + research on MyLSN was that I'm looking at something like 1) NYU at sticker 2) MVP with $ 3) NU ED (and maybe $$+ from C&G which is clearly trumped by NU ED) None of them guaranteed, but all with decent chances.

I'm not sure about NU ED because I don't really have any ties in the midwest, and I'm not sure if I would want to work in Chicago. My top goal is NY Biglaw, and I really want NYU/Columbia. What would be the needed LSAT for a decent $$+ at those schools?

[OhBoyOhBortles]

Georgetown would have thrown a lot of money at you this cycle. I'd be willing to bet that continues.

If you could bump your score to 174/175 I'm pretty sure you'd see some money from one of C/N. However, you can get NYC big law from NU for sure. Duke, Georgetown, UVA, Mich, Cornell...really any of the t14 are going to give you a good shot at NYC big law. I'd wait to see where the money is before narrowing your choices down.

[kingpin101]

Your optimal move would be to not go to law school.

[basedvulpes]

Post removed.

[Oskosh]

I have a question for those of you who talk about money w/r/t law schools. When you are speaking of money, are you speaking purely of merit based aid? Like, when you say "sticker," could it be interpreted to mean that you didn't receive merit based aid, but received the maximum need-based aid (100kish)? That wouldn't qualify as "sticker," right?

Just curious about what we mean when we talk about money lol.

[Nomo]

I don't know the details of your current job, but your best move is probably to stay away from law school. Sticker doesn't make sense. and a 15 or 20k scholarship at a middle or lower t14 is still leaving you with way too much debt given your odds of biglaw.

I'm guessing that you don't really want to work in accounting any more, and from the few interactions you've had with lawyers, its seems like they do more interesting work. But plenty of people have gone to law school for that reason. And most seem to regret it. If the masters in accounting was a mistake, then law school is probably a bigger mistake.

[Ohiobumpkin]

Go to T-1 at full ride and specialize in tax law. Plenty of jobs, and happiest lawyers.

[gnomgnomuch]

If I can hijack this thread, how much do incremental gains in GPA matter for $$$? I don't totally feel comfortable posting my exact numbers but my GPA is slightly higher than OP's and LSAT is the same. Is conventional wisdom that I have a slightly better shot at admission and money, or does at that point it really come down to the intangibles?

I'm making this up as I type it, but I really doubt a .02 increase would actually matter. If you've got a 3.69 or something, than it might make a difference.

[Tiago Splitter]

If I can hijack this thread, how much do incremental gains in GPA matter for $$$? I don't totally feel comfortable posting my exact numbers but my GPA is slightly higher than OP's and LSAT is the same. Is conventional wisdom that I have a slightly better shot at admission and money, or does at that point it really come down to the intangibles?

It's all about getting above the median. If you're near but still below the school's median a few extra hundredths won't help. But with where the OP is you might be in a situation where you can get above a median at a school with a TTT GPA median like CLS or NYU.

I have a question for those of you who talk about money w/r/t law schools. When you are speaking of money, are you speaking purely of merit based aid? Like, when you say "sticker," could it be interpreted to mean that you didn't receive merit based aid, but received the maximum need-based aid (100kish)? That wouldn't qualify as "sticker," right?

Just curious about what we mean when we talk about money lol.

Outside of HYS need based aid isn't much of a thing.

OP you should retake and if you score the same or within a point or two ED to NU. NU is great for NYC biglaw so no worries there.

[shuno17]

If I can hijack this thread, how much do incremental gains in GPA matter for $$$? I don't totally feel comfortable posting my exact numbers but my GPA is slightly higher than OP's and LSAT is the same. Is conventional wisdom that I have a slightly better shot at admission and money, or does at that point it really come down to the intangibles?

It's all about getting above the median. If you're near but still below the school's median a few extra hundredths won't help. But with where the OP is you might be in a situation where you can get above a median at a school with a TTT GPA median like CLS or NYU.

I have a question for those of you who talk about money w/r/t law schools. When you are speaking of money, are you speaking purely of merit based aid? Like, when you say "sticker," could it be interpreted to mean that you didn't receive merit based aid, but received the maximum need-based aid (100kish)? That wouldn't qualify as "sticker," right?

Just curious about what we mean when we talk about money lol.

Outside of HYS need based aid isn't much of a thing.

OP you should retake and if you score the same or within a point or two ED to NU. NU is great for NYC biglaw so no worries there.

Would that mean 173+ roll the dice?

LSN tells me that any additional point will get me into CLS and 175 would be where I'd start seeing HLS coinflip, so I see a point there...

Damn money is so hard to predict

[Tiago Splitter]

Even if you get a 180 NU ED is a reasonable option. It's just less necessary the higher you go with the LSAT. Even now you're in good shape for a big scholarship from Cornell and probably a couple others, you just aren't likely to get 150k anywhere other than NU.

To be honest with your goals I'd take NU over Harvard unless you are eligible for large need based grants at Harvard. So don't get too bent out of shape about whether you're missing out on some better opportunity than 150k to NU because those don't really exist.

[Glasseyes]

Considering what I got from lower t14 with far worse numbers than you (let's call it median lsat and <25th gpa), you should make a killing in merit aid from the bottom half of the t14. The advice to stay away from law school seems fairly absurd given your stats and options, and if you're as bright as you likely are, you'll have done your research thoroughly by this point. I'd ED NU personally, and apply like mad elsewhere. Remember to hustle for the money. Their first offer is only an offer, and you owe it to yourself to bleed them for all they're worth.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Yeah strategy will probably be the same even if you score higher, just blanket T14 (maybe minus HYS if you're not expecting any aid anyway).

If you score the same or like one point increase ED NU would be a good strategy. If I were in your situation and scored a 173+ I'd probably just let the cycle play out.

[Clearly]

I'd ED NU for sure. CCN money won't be much even with a retake because of your GPA. You'll get money from DNCG etc but not 150k. NU with 150 seems about as good as it gets for your goals and debt aversion.

[Chrstgtr]

I'd ED NU for sure. CCN money won't be much even with a retake because of your GPA. You'll get money from DNCG etc but not 150k. NU with 150 seems about as good as it gets for your goals and debt aversion.

Getting a full ride at any school seems pretty unlikely unless it is NU with ED. Even if NU might not be your "top choice" it should be prefered if your options are NU with a full ride or someplace like Cornell with 120. So even if you you get your best possible outcome at someplace like Cornell it is still not as good as a full ride to Northwestern.

With regard to your hope for NYU or Columbia, you will not receive a full ride or for that matter anything close it, sorry. At a substantially higher cost NYU and Columbia is not worth it over a free ride to NU.

Just ED to NU and see if you get it. If you do then you have a full-ride which you almost certainly cannot get elsewhere. If you don't then you are back to blanketing the T14 and negotiating their scholarship offers against one another so you don't have much to lose by EDing. Getting to NYC isn't particularly hard from any school as it is the easiest market to crack so how difficult it is to get into that market will just reflect the school's placement power that is discussed on these forums continuously (all the mid-lower T14s with the possible exception of GULC have an argument for being the best at placing into BL).

[Nomo]

The advice to stay away from law school seems fairly absurd given your stats and options, and if you're as bright as you likely are, you'll have done your research thoroughly by this point.

Do you have any idea how many people with 171/3.63 and a few years of work experience think that they have "done their research" but within a year or two of biglaw realize they've made the biggest mistake of their life? If OP has a really good reason to want to go to law school, that's one thing. But if "I want NYC biglaw" just means, I want a more interesting job, and I want to make a lot of money - then this is a mistake, at least if we're talking 100k+ debt for a lower T14, or 200k+ debt for C/N. Its too hard to come out ahead financially in those scenarios. Maybe OP realizes this (which is why OP says he/she is debt adverse).

[Glasseyes]

The advice to stay away from law school seems fairly absurd given your stats and options, and if you're as bright as you likely are, you'll have done your research thoroughly by this point.

Do you have any idea how many people with 171/3.63 and a few years of work experience think that they have "done their research" but within a year or two of biglaw realize they've made the biggest mistake of their life? If OP has a really good reason to want to go to law school, that's one thing. But if "I want NYC biglaw" just means, I want a more interesting job, and I want to make a lot of money - then this is a mistake, at least if we're talking 100k+ debt for a lower T14, or 200k+ debt for C/N. Its too hard to come out ahead financially in those scenarios. Maybe OP realizes this (which is why OP says he/she is debt adverse).

Fair point. I'm significantly older than the vast majority of my classmates, so I partly assume that others have thought about this is through to the extent that I have, which is probably not the case. OP: in case you haven't heard, Biglaw is universally terrible. No one really enjoys it, most folks openly hate it, and it's just a brutal grind that generally doesn't let up (not unlike law school). So Nomo's point to think long and hard about your current lifestyle and goals for happiness is a valid one. It's worth recognizing that NYC is likely the most brutal market in terms of hours and client demands as well. So reflect on that, research exactly what it is that biglaw attorneys do, and if you're still on board, then go ahead and ED at NU.

One thing that's worth mentioning that seems implicated in Nomo's comment: once you dive into this stuff, it can be difficult to back out of it. You'll apply for schools and feel obligated to go once you start getting acceptances (and you WILL get plenty of acceptances). You'll feel validated and welcomed and you'll start to think that, oh, maybe all these naysayers are just depressed losers airing their sour grapes, and my own future will never suck that hard. That's a trap. You can always back out of it, and in many cases you should, even if you've got some tempting acceptances and scholarships lined up. Do your best to maintain some perspective; try and think big picture, and don't go for any other reason than you actually want to do this with your life (and try to figure out exactly what "this" is for you, which is basically what you'll have to articulate at every interview from now until forever anyway, so it's good to reflect on it now). Good luck.