Penn/PA Character and Fitness Question Forum

[ddthrowtt]

The character and fitness portion of Penn's app from this past cycle included the following question:

5. Have you ever, either as an adult or a juvenile, been arrested, charged, cited, or convicted of a crime (including misdemeanors), or is any charge now pending against you? (This should include matters that have been expunged or subject to a diversionary program.)

(6. Crime Explanation: (maximum characters 500))

My question is whether or not I should disclose a now-expunged summary offense I was charged with (which was eventually dismissed, although that has no bearing on my question) years ago.

As you can see above, Penn's question specifically makes sure to note that a misdemeanor should be disclosed, but says nothing of a summary offense. Penn is, obviously, in Pennsylvania, where (as I have been led to believe, correct me if I am wrong) summary offenses exist as an entirely different class of "violation" in the same way that a misdemeanor is different from a felony. (Again, this is what I have been led to believe. I am open to the idea that I may be wrong.) If this is true, and Penn specifically asks for misdemeanors but not summary offenses, I shouldn't have to disclose it, right? Why volunteer information that they did not ask for?

According to the PA Bar website: "A summary offense is any minor crime, initially heard and decided by a district justice. Many violations of the Motor Vehicle Code, such as speeding, illegal parking and going through a red light, are summary offenses." No part of Penn's C&F questions ask about traffic violations either, unlike the apps of some schools, so - considering that a summary offense is akin to a traffic violation - I am further led to believe that I do not have to disclose it.

When I had my record expunged, I spoke to the court clerk (also a licensed attorney) who said that I should view my former charge in the same way that I would a traffic violation. That is, if the school asks for traffic violations and/or minor-offenses in particular, I would be wise to disclose. But, those that do not ask for either, I should feel comfortable not disclosing and volunteering up that information.

I know that TCR is "over-disclose" and "err on the side of caution and disclosure," but I know its also true and commonly supported that you should not offer up any information that they do not ask for and that you should answer to the best of your ability within the parameters the question itself established. I will be disclosing my summary offense to the schools whose C&F questions, based on their wording and structure, leave me no choice but to disclose. I don't believe that Penn's is one of these questions. I would rather not disclose it if they didn't ask for it. Does anybody have any insight? I have a hard time believing that this was some sort of oversight on the part of the premier law school in PA: they are well aware of the existence of summary offenses and the distinction between them and other violations. If they wanted to know about it, they would have asked, I think.

ETA: PLEASE DONT QUOTE ANY PART OF THIS, THANK YOU.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I get your reasoning, but I don't have an answer. I just wanted to suggest calling Penn and asking? I don't see any reason you would have to give your name, and they certainly have an answer.

[ddthrowtt]

I get your reasoning, but I don't have an answer. I just wanted to suggest calling Penn and asking? I don't see any reason you would have to give your name, and they certainly have an answer.

Thanks for the suggestion, thats what I think I will end up doing. I imagine if you don't know, others probably won't lol. This post hasn't gained much traction. It does reassure me that the 14,000 post admin didn't immediately just tell me to disclose, so there is hope I feel.

In the event that I do end up disclosing at Penn (and in the case of all other schools I apply to), to the best of your knowledge, how likely is that something like an expunged summary offense from my early teenage years will impact my admission? Would it be something that contributes to losing a tie-breaker between someone else who has similar numbers? I understand this is probably difficult to gauge when you don't know my exact offense, but I am a little wary of going into detail in a public forum. I will say, however, that it was a "victimless crime," no property was damaged, no one but me was worse off for it having happened, etc. etc.

Thanks again.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Don't take me as any kind of expert on c&f disclosures, because I lived a very boring life and don't have personal experience with this. I just think your you may have a point about the language and the way different offenses are categorized in PA, and that it's worth asking the school directly (I think people here tend to be a little too reluctant to ask schools and end up doing a lot of guessing).

Based on everything I've read here, though, an expunged offense early in your teenage years isn't going to have any effect on admissions at all. If it had been incredibly egregious/seriously injured other people/was part of a pattern of misbehavior that continued to the present, sure. One isolated incident as a teenager isn't going to have any effect, though.

[ddthrowtt]

Ah, ok. Thanks again, that really is a load off of my mind. I keep running through scenarios in my head where my app is as perfect as I could possibly get it to be, but I am dinged because of the C&F addendum in favor of another applicant. I guess I never really believed it would matter that much, but Penn is my number one target so, naturally, I'm just trying especially hard to improve my chances and eliminate anything that can be perceived as a negative.

And yes, I knew you weren't necessarily an expert, but I (correctly) assumed you have been around long enough and read through enough of these sort of posts that you might be able to give a little insight. Also, its just reassuring to read that someone else (particularly someone who isn't another K-JD) looked at the language and saw an inexactness about the it that could favor my situation. I was convinced I was going to be flooded with automatic "full disclosure, end of discussion" responses because I read too deeply into the wording.

[lavarman84]

Ah, ok. Thanks again, that really is a load off of my mind. I keep running through scenarios in my head where my app is as perfect as I could possibly get it to be, but I am dinged because of the C&F addendum in favor of another applicant. I guess I never really believed it would matter that much, but Penn is my number one target so, naturally, I'm just trying especially hard to improve my chances and eliminate anything that can be perceived as a negative.

And yes, I knew you weren't necessarily an expert, but I (correctly) assumed you have been around long enough and read through enough of these sort of posts that you might be able to give a little insight. Also, its just reassuring to read that someone else (particularly someone who isn't another K-JD) looked at the language and saw an inexactness about the it that could favor my situation. I was convinced I was going to be flooded with automatic "full disclosure, end of discussion" responses because I read too deeply into the wording.

The thing about ambiguity in a situation like this is that it might not end up favoring your situation.(that's the risk with ambiguity) I agree with A. Nony Mouse. Better to play it safe by calling and asking. Good luck with Penn, it's a great school!