Does Yale really have an edge over HLS? Forum

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:51 am

Given that there are far more HLS alums out there in hiring positions, if we hold that YLS has a distinctive edge over HLS, then aren't we also forced to hold that a sizable portion of HLS alums are saying to themselves on some level "while person A went to my alma mater, Person B went to Yale which is higher ranked. Therefore, I am going to go with the guy who went to Yale."

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. And given that it doesn't make much sense, then wouldn't most of Yale's placement success in academia etc more reasonably be chalked up to self-selection?

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:00 am

Fred Norris wrote:Given that there are far more HLS alums out there in hiring positions, if we hold that YLS has a distinctive edge over HLS, then aren't we also forced to hold that a sizable portion of HLS alums are saying to themselves on some level "while person A went to my alma mater, Person B went to Yale which is higher ranked. Therefore, I am going to go with the guy who went to Yale."

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. And given that it doesn't make much sense, then wouldn't most of Yale's placement success in academia etc more reasonably be chalked up to self-selection?

If every single Harvard alum favored Harvard students Yale could still have an edge because most people in hiring positions didn't go to Harvard.

You're forgetting about all the non-Harvard/Yale alums.

FSK · Post by **FSK** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:05 am

Most decision makers in the world didn't go to law school, and if they did didn't go to Harvard.

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:13 am

Dog wrote:
Fred Norris wrote:Given that there are far more HLS alums out there in hiring positions, if we hold that YLS has a distinctive edge over HLS, then aren't we also forced to hold that a sizable portion of HLS alums are saying to themselves on some level "while person A went to my alma mater, Person B went to Yale which is higher ranked. Therefore, I am going to go with the guy who went to Yale."

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. And given that it doesn't make much sense, then wouldn't most of Yale's placement success in academia etc more reasonably be chalked up to self-selection?
If every single Harvard alum favored Harvard students Yale could still have an edge because most people in hiring positions didn't go to Harvard.

You're forgetting about all the non-Harvard/Yale alums.

Fair point. In Academia though, especially at top schools, I would say a very sizable portion are HLS alums.

Clemenceau · Post by **Clemenceau** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:15 am

Dont worry dude. You'll be fine if you dont get into Yale

No need to go fishing for the answer you want to hear

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:16 am

flawschoolkid wrote:Most decision makers in the world didn't go to law school, and if they did didn't go to Harvard.

Wouldn't that be all the more reason that HLS would have an edge due to lay prestige?

buckiguy_sucks · Post by **buckiguy_sucks** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:17 am

Post removed.

Sirius Blackstone · Post by **Sirius Blackstone** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:19 am

You seem to be assuming that the only factor at play in the outcomes for students is relative prestige. Yale's class size is also about a third of Harvard's, meaning Yale students have fewer other Yale students to compete with for jobs. Who knows, maybe if Yale graduated 600 people there wouldn't be a difference in outcomes. Even on reputation alone, though, Yale's massive clerkship rate shows that there's probably more than just self-selection going on.

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:19 am

buckiguy_sucks wrote:
Does having an alum connection in academia even matter? I feel like academia hiring is more based on your publications/being academically and intellectually diverse. This could be naive of me but I would hope academia hiring at that level isn't so nepotistic

You're right - wouldn't that just reinforce that Yale success is based on self-selection?

Holly Golightly · Post by **Holly Golightly** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:25 am

Fred Norris wrote:Given that there are far more HLS alums out there in hiring positions, if we hold that YLS has a distinctive edge over HLS, then aren't we also forced to hold that a sizable portion of HLS alums are saying to themselves on some level "while person A went to my alma mater, Person B went to Yale which is higher ranked. Therefore, I am going to go with the guy who went to Yale."

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. And given that it doesn't make much sense, then wouldn't most of Yale's placement success in academia etc more reasonably be chalked up to self-selection?

Just the way this post is phrased makes me hate you.

Snuffles1 · Post by **Snuffles1** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:32 am

Fred Norris wrote:
buckiguy_sucks wrote:
Does having an alum connection in academia even matter? I feel like academia hiring is more based on your publications/being academically and intellectually diverse. This could be naive of me but I would hope academia hiring at that level isn't so nepotistic
You're right - wouldn't that just reinforce that Yale success is based on self-selection?

I won't speak to the alum/lay prestige distinction, but your JD institution really very much absolutely matters for academia. A lot. And Yale is undoubtedly the leader wrt this metric. (Publications matter too, of course. But not "more.")

CicerBRo · Post by **CicerBRo** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:42 am

Yale has the edge for academia. HLS has the edge for political/business connections. Depends on what you want to do.

Moneytrees · Post by **Moneytrees** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:40 pm

Both are elite. I doubt Yale has much of an edge over Harvard in anything.

Longtimecoming19 · Post by **Longtimecoming19** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:01 pm

Hiring decision-makers know that every Yale student, to a first approximation, got into Harvard, and that the overwhelming majority of Harvard students did not get into Yale. I am sorry, it seems like you do not want to hear this, but it is true.

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:46 pm

Longtimecoming19 wrote:Hiring decision-makers know that every Yale student, to a first approximation, got into Harvard, and that the overwhelming majority of Harvard students did not get into Yale. I am sorry, it seems like you do not want to hear this, but it is true.

So Stanford also beats out HLS in hiring?

ILoveYou · Post by **ILoveYou** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:57 pm

Fred Norris wrote:
So Stanford also beats out HLS in hiring?

Depending on what kind of hiring you're talking about, the case can certainly be made.

bearsfan23 · Post by **bearsfan23** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:03 pm

Except for "lay prestige," HLS isn't close to Yale in any aspect of legal hiring - clerkships, academia, etc.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:16 pm

Post removed.

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:16 pm

Where would you say SLS has the edge over HLS?

arklaw13 · Post by **arklaw13** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:36 pm

Moneytrees wrote:Both are elite. I doubt Yale has much of an edge over Harvard in anything.

Hate to keep beating the academia drum, but Yale does have an edge. If you ever are on the articles committee for a journal you'll realize it's very true. We get an outsized number of submissions from Yale grades, even compared to Harvard grads. If I were to look at the number of articles that make it to the point of being reviewed by the full committee, I would not be surprised if a plurality of the authors graduated from YLS, even considering the fact that HLS is triple the size.

ballcaps · Post by **ballcaps** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:40 pm

Clemenceau wrote:Dont worry dude. You'll be fine if you dont get into Yale

No need to go fishing for the answer you want to hear

absolutely this.

also your OP contains atrocious reasoning.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:58 pm

Yes, for any individual student, Yale provides distinct advantages. Harvard will produce many incredible graduates that will go on to great careers - but many more of them will have rather ordinary corporate jobs. A non-negligibly greater percentage of Yale students will have more unique opportunities their chosen field. For example, Yale doesn't just have an "edge" in academia. It blows other schools out of the water. Just under half of Yale students will clerk for a federal judge (either after graduation or a year out). This ranges from meaning very little -- returning to litigate at a firm -- to quite a bit.

yomisterd · Post by **yomisterd** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:10 pm

either follow the numbers or follow your heart. over-rationalizing is dumb.

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:42 pm

ballcaps wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Dont worry dude. You'll be fine if you dont get into Yale

No need to go fishing for the answer you want to hear
absolutely this.

also your OP contains atrocious reasoning.

The keyboard jockeying here is insane. I ask a question and instead I get unsolicited life advice. Believe me, the last place I would go fishing for validation is TLS.

Fred Norris · Post by **Fred Norris** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:57 pm

arklaw13 wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:Both are elite. I doubt Yale has much of an edge over Harvard in anything.
Hate to keep beating the academia drum, but Yale does have an edge. If you ever are on the articles committee for a journal you'll realize it's very true. We get an outsized number of submissions from Yale grades, even compared to Harvard grads. If I were to look at the number of articles that make it to the point of being reviewed by the full committee, I would not be surprised if a plurality of the authors graduated from YLS, even considering the fact that HLS is triple the size.

Wouldn't that all the more suggest self-selection? There is nothing stopping Cooley grads from sending you millions of articles.

The question is do you guys give more weight to an YLS grad article?