100% committed to Public Interest. Is Sticker price okay? Forum

[dnab bulc straeh]

Hello. I'm new to the forums so I apologize if this is in the wrong place.

I got my September LSAT results earlier in the week and surprisingly scored a 170. This was much higher than I had been practicing at so I'm thinking I got lucky on a few 50-50s. My GPA isn't so great though at 3.26.

I have read many stories of how bad sticker price debt can be when biglaw is the goal/outcome, but does that change for Public Interest? If I go into a government job for a starting salary of about $55,000 and rely on LRAP, am I still making a horrible financial decision? I believe I have also read that LRAP forgives all student loans after 10 years. If my salary goes up to $75,000 or $85,000 a year before that 10 years though, am I disqualified from LRAP and then forced to pay back sticker debt? I know I'm asking a lot of questions here so I hope I am making sense. If it helps this is the scenario I'm asking about:

$250,000 debt from T-14
Public Interest Job making <$75,000 starting salary
Goal is to use my school's LRAP and the PSLF program to pay off debt

Will I be debt-free in 10 years or are there other things to consider?

[BigZuck]

Do you need to go to a T14 to get the type of job you have in mind?

What happens if go to a T14 and you don't get a PSLF/LRAP eligible job?

[AReasonableMan]

It's just as much of a risk as if you wanted big law. Maybe a greater risk because if you get big law but live on a public interest budget (only spend 30k a year), you could pay it off quickly.

[Julius]

Questions like "should I run up a bill of 300k and then pass it on to others" is why the law will probably change in the next couple years and why you can't count on it being there for your loans.

Also, if you are 100% PI you'll probably be unemployed for large segments of time in which case you won't be LRAP/PSLF eligible.

And if you are PI employed and you aren't doing legal aid you'll ended up moving out of many of the school's LRAP programs pretty quick (e.g., DOJ -> usually about 3 years). So you'll make 100k+ gross if you're lucky but you'll be living like you're making 40k.

[dnab bulc straeh]

Do you need to go to a T14 to get the type of job you have in mind?

I don't think that a T14 is 100% necessary, but I think it will help. I'm hoping to get a federal job through one of the honors programs. What I'm hoping to get out of a T14 rather than another school is a better career services office for internship/externships and better clinical opportunities. I think my usage of T14 was a little too broad. I specifically meant a school like UVA or Georgetown due to proximity to DC, or Duke because of their Duke in DC program. I wasn't really thinking about a more-rural school like Cornell.

What happens if go to a T14 and you don't get a PSLF/LRAP eligible job?

This is of course the big concern. My understanding is that most PSLF/LRAP eligible jobs do their hiring in the first semester of 3L. If I do not get one of these positions, I will probably leave law school jobless.

[Mal Reynolds]

Fed gov jobs are pretty easy to come by from what I've heard.

[Julius]

Does fedgov give a big bonus for SCOTUS clerkships? That might affect the calculus here.

[phillywc]

Questions like "should I run up a bill of 300k and then pass it on to others" is why the law will probably change in the next couple years and why you can't count on it being there for your loans.

Also, if you are 100% PI you'll probably be unemployed for large segments of time in which case you won't be LRAP/PSLF eligible.

And if you are PI employed and you aren't doing legal aid you'll ended up moving out of many of the school's LRAP programs pretty quick (e.g., DOJ -> usually about 3 years). So you'll make 100k+ gross if you're lucky but you'll be living like you're making 40k.

You sound pretty awful.

[dnab bulc straeh]

Fed gov jobs are pretty easy to come by from what I've heard.

I hope my post doesn't make it sound like I think getting these jobs will be easy. I read through twenty's "So you want to do PI?" post and figured that the T14 would be the best option based on

Either go to a T14 school with the best LRAP program for your goals
Or go to a regional school for free.

My concern though is the lack of ties I have to a large metro area which twenty also identifies as an important factor. I know that with my numbers I could probably attend a regional school for free. But I would probably have to attend a regional school in a metro area that I do not have ties to. If I completely strike out at a PI job, which seems at least somewhat more likely at a regional than a T14, I will be left unemployed with a law degree from a region I don't really have ties to.

[Mal Reynolds]

Twenty wrote that post before he had even spent one day in law school.

[dnab bulc straeh]

Twenty wrote that post before he had even spent one day in law school.

Ah, that is something I did not realize.

Are you saying that his post is an inaccurate reflection of PI hiring as well?

[baal hadad]

Twenty wrote that post before he had even spent one day in law school.

lol

[Mal Reynolds]

Twenty wrote that post before he had even spent one day in law school.

Ah, that is something I did not realize.

Are you saying that his post is an inaccurate reflection of PI hiring as well?

There are times when he posts reasonable things but he's basically parroting other people. If I'm looking for advice I wouldn't take if from him though.

[twenty]

I wouldn't take my word for it, either. Please, for the love of God, do not listen to what some 0L/(anyL, really) tells you on an internet forum as justification to take out 300k in student loan debt. Do your own research. Get perspectives from multiple people, not just me. I think you can find a lot of perspectives on that thread I provided, so I would strongly urge you to read the entire thread, not just the OP.

With that said, you say:

If I go into a government job for a starting salary of about $55,000 and rely on LRAP, am I still making a horrible financial decision

There's a huge, huge difference between the hiring practices at Bumblebee County DA office and DOJ Honors. From your post, not to be mean, but it sounds like you honestly don't know the difference. I would say "figure that out first" but honestly I think any decision you make will probably be more based on a gut preference towards taking on huge loans with the expectation that you can PSLF-out of them later on.

If my salary goes up to $75,000 or $85,000 a year before that 10 years though, am I disqualified from LRAP and then forced to pay back sticker debt?

That's not quite how it works. LRAP doesn't pay your loans per se (except for HYS + Cornell, and an older program at Columbia), LRAP makes the PAYE/IBR payment if your income falls below a certain threshold amount. Hypothetically, suppose a school has an LRAP cap of 70k, and is intertwined with IBR/PAYE/PSLF. If you make 70k or less, the school picks up your IBR/PAYE "payments" so that if you stay in public interest employment for ten years while having made 70k/year or less, you would have effectively paid nothing out of pocket.

If your income goes above 70k, how a school treats it varies by school. Some schools, like NYU/GULC, will pay a prorated variant to where you pay for some of the IBR/PAYE payment, and the school picks up some of it. Some schools, like UChicago, will completely cut you off at their cap.

[kingfish10]

Questions like "should I run up a bill of 300k and then pass it on to others" is why the law will probably change in the next couple years and why you can't count on it being there for your loans.

Right - committing yourself to potentially make as little as $40,000 out of law school instead of $160,000 in order to do public interest law is clearly a selfish freeloading decision. Not saying that PI is for saints or that there's anything wrong with going with the higher salary, just saying that the point of LRAP and PSLF is to enable lawyers to do public service work that wouldn't otherwise be possible with the weight of loan payments. Those programs don't allow people to live large, for the most part they just make sure you'll be able to cover your costs of living in a low paying job.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Also, if you are 100% PI you'll probably be unemployed for large segments of time in which case you won't be LRAP/PSLF eligible.

And if you are PI employed and you aren't doing legal aid you'll ended up moving out of many of the school's LRAP programs pretty quick (e.g., DOJ -> usually about 3 years). So you'll make 100k+ gross if you're lucky but you'll be living like you're making 40k.

Leaving aside the OP's plans for a second, the first point above isn't necessarily true. People who don't get their PI dream job often actually do other jobs in the meantime, they don't sit around unemployed any more than anyone else from their school/with their qualifications sits around unemployed. That may be plenty, but it's not going to be because of PI per se.

Also, going on IBR/PAYE makes it less relevant whether you move out of your school's LRAP program - your payment is still tied to your income. If you're unemployed, you don't pay anything.

[Mal Reynolds]

Twenty I'm saying to the extent that anyone listens to anyone on the Internet, they should listen to you the least.

[twenty]

Considering he came to this conclusion after reading it:

My concern though is the lack of ties I have to a large metro area which twenty also identifies as an important factor. I know that with my numbers I could probably attend a regional school for free. But I would probably have to attend a regional school in a metro area that I do not have ties to. If I completely strike out at a PI job, which seems at least somewhat more likely at a regional than a T14, I will be left unemployed with a law degree from a region I don't really have ties to.

I'm not sure I necessarily disagree with you.

[Julius]

Also, if you are 100% PI you'll probably be unemployed for large segments of time in which case you won't be LRAP/PSLF eligible.

And if you are PI employed and you aren't doing legal aid you'll ended up moving out of many of the school's LRAP programs pretty quick (e.g., DOJ -> usually about 3 years). So you'll make 100k+ gross if you're lucky but you'll be living like you're making 40k.

Leaving aside the OP's plans for a second, the first point above isn't necessarily true. People who don't get their PI dream job often actually do other jobs in the meantime, they don't sit around unemployed any more than anyone else from their school/with their qualifications sits around unemployed. That may be plenty, but it's not going to be because of PI per se.

Also, going on IBR/PAYE makes it less relevant whether you move out of your school's LRAP program - your payment is still tied to your income. If you're unemployed, you don't pay anything.

1. PI committed students almost certainly have higher unemployment rates than the average student simply by virtue of being forced to pass up biglaw before knowing whether they are going to get fedgov or a fellowship. I don't think they sit around but they are often compelled to work in volunteer jobs and the like. Hiring can be horrific if you don't go the biglaw route.

2. True. I do think PI students should be wary about IBR/PAYE given the likelihood of changes to the program but as it stands you're correct.

[Julius]

Questions like "should I run up a bill of 300k and then pass it on to others" is why the law will probably change in the next couple years and why you can't count on it being there for your loans.

Right - committing yourself to potentially make as little as $40,000 out of law school instead of $160,000 in order to do public interest law is clearly a selfish freeloading decision. Not saying that PI is for saints or that there's anything wrong with going with the higher salary, just saying that the point of LRAP and PSLF is to enable lawyers to do public service work that wouldn't otherwise be possible with the weight of loan payments. Those programs don't allow people to live large, for the most part they just make sure you'll be able to cover your costs of living in a low paying job.

That logic is fine when there is a shortage of PI lawyers. It isn't when there is a massive surplus.

[kingfish10]

Questions like "should I run up a bill of 300k and then pass it on to others" is why the law will probably change in the next couple years and why you can't count on it being there for your loans.

Right - committing yourself to potentially make as little as $40,000 out of law school instead of $160,000 in order to do public interest law is clearly a selfish freeloading decision. Not saying that PI is for saints or that there's anything wrong with going with the higher salary, just saying that the point of LRAP and PSLF is to enable lawyers to do public service work that wouldn't otherwise be possible with the weight of loan payments. Those programs don't allow people to live large, for the most part they just make sure you'll be able to cover your costs of living in a low paying job.

That logic is fine when there is a shortage of PI lawyers. It isn't when there is a massive surplus.

LRAP/PSLF don't cover unemployed PI job seekers, so it's only covering people who have secured a job. Presumably if there's a job, there's a need (especially considering how strapped nonprofits and the public sector in general are for funding).

[twenty]

just saying that the point of LRAP and PSLF is to enable lawyers to do public service work that wouldn't otherwise be possible with the weight of loan payments

Yeah, except that LRAPs used to be a lot less generous because the school paid for them rather than DoED. PAYE/new-IBR is pretty ridiculous no matter how desperate gov/PI orgs are.

[kingfish10]

just saying that the point of LRAP and PSLF is to enable lawyers to do public service work that wouldn't otherwise be possible with the weight of loan payments

Yeah, except that LRAPs used to be a lot less generous because the school paid for them rather than DoED. PAYE/new-IBR is pretty ridiculous no matter how desperate gov/PI orgs are.

I guess this just comes down to whether you believe that allowing people to have access to lawyers is a public good. In which case, not sure I get why it's ridiculous. If not, we probably aren't going to agree.

[prezidentv8]

Will I be debt-free in 10 years or are there other things to consider?

Republicans?


ETA:

[ ] PI lawyers. [ ] massive surplus.

[AReasonableMan]

Fed gov jobs are pretty easy to come by from what I've heard.

I hope my post doesn't make it sound like I think getting these jobs will be easy. I read through twenty's "So you want to do PI?" post and figured that the T14 would be the best option based on

Either go to a T14 school with the best LRAP program for your goals
Or go to a regional school for free.

My concern though is the lack of ties I have to a large metro area which twenty also identifies as an important factor. I know that with my numbers I could probably attend a regional school for free. But I would probably have to attend a regional school in a metro area that I do not have ties to. If I completely strike out at a PI job, which seems at least somewhat more likely at a regional than a T14, I will be left unemployed with a law degree from a region I don't really have ties to.

Why would ties matter less for a public interest job?