California Western 100k vs Seattle University Forum

[CWvsSU]

I have always been interested in going to school in CA, and I currently live in Seattle. In addition, I already have lined up my 1L summer with a very prestigious position based on personal contacts and past work experience. With those aspects in mind, would you take California Western with 100k scholarship (75% scholarship) which requires I maintain a C average or better or Seattle U at full tuition?

Thanks for your input.

[pancakes3]

75% scholarship still piles up 100k debt? How?

[twenty]

Definitely neither. First, congrats on landing a 1L summer spot before you even start. Will that unquestioningly become a full time job when law school is over? Because if not, realize that California Western gives you less than a 1/3 chance of getting any legal job AT ALL. Seattle University isn't much better.

Keep in mind that wherever you go, unless you have free housing and room and board (i.e, living with parents\having really rich parents that will jump for it) your cost of attendance will be substantially higher than you're estimating right now.

Furthermore, CA Western requires you to be in the top 33% of your class to maintain your scholarship. Since law school grades truly are random for as far as you're concerned, that means you have about a 33% chance of retaining your scholarship.

The reason your choices here are so terrible is because you haven't studied at all for the LSAT. It's the single most learn-able test in the world. Study for it, retake it, come back in a year.

[ilikebaseball]

neither, never ever under any circumstance

[CWvsSU]

75% scholarship still piles up 100k debt? How?

nono. I get $100k, which is equivalent to a 75% scholarship.

[CWvsSU]

Furthermore, CA Western requires you to be in the top 33% of your class to maintain your scholarship. Since law school grades truly are random for as far as you're concerned, that means you have about a 33% chance of retaining your scholarship.

The scholarship requires I maintain a C average or better (76).

[Moneytrees]

I have always been interested in going to school in CA, and I currently live in Seattle. In addition, I already have lined up my 1L summer with a very prestigious position based on personal contacts and past work experience. With those aspects in mind, would you take California Western with 100k scholarship (75% scholarship) which requires I maintain a C average or better or Seattle U at full tuition?

Thanks for your input.

Going to either school would be a very risky endeavor. Both schools have bad job placement numbers. Retake the LSAT, kick butt, and get a full ride at a school that gives you better than a coin flip chance of being a practicing attorney.

[twenty]

Furthermore, CA Western requires you to be in the top 33% of your class to maintain your scholarship. Since law school grades truly are random for as far as you're concerned, that means you have about a 33% chance of retaining your scholarship.

The scholarship requires I maintain a C average or better (76).

76 at CW is actually between a C+ and a B-, (and judging by the curve there will still be a lot of people losing their scholarships). In either event, even if you were going for free with zero stipulations and didn't have to pay for housing/food, CW is still a terrible idea. You're spending three years of your life on a less than 1/3 chance of getting a job nine months after you graduate. it's cool that you have a 1L job, but that's not really saying a lot when you ignore the part about having a guarantee that it will lead to full time legal employment. Anyone can get a 1L gig, you're not really beating any sort of employment curve here.

[Ti Malice]

75% scholarship still piles up 100k debt? How?

How wouldn't it? Remaining tuition plus fees, books, health insurance, San Diego rent, bills, food, clothes, household items, transportation expenses. It adds up.

OP, these are both absolutely wretched options. Have you looked at the employment outcomes for these schools? How can you for one second think that a ~40% chance of finding work as an actual lawyer (and a ~5% chance of finding a job that will let you pay off your debt) out of SU might be worth ~$240K of non-dischargeable, high-interest debt at the beginning of repayment?

If you insist on making an utterly moronic decision by going to one of these schools, CW is less likely to completely ruin your life. Just don't compound abject stupidity with unadulterated idiocy by refusing to drop out if you lose your scholarship after 1L.

[Moneytrees]

75% scholarship still piles up 100k debt? How?

How wouldn't it? Remaining tuition plus fees, books, health insurance, San Diego rent, bills, food, clothes, household items, transportation expenses. It adds up.

I mean realistically, it wouldn't be 100k. San Diego rent is relatively cheap. I went to school in La Jolla and my cost of living was pretty low. As long as you live a reasonably modest lifestyle, you would not accrue 100 thousand dollars in debt going California Western.

However, you should still only resort to going to a school like that if you've retaken the LSAT and you are well aware (and ready to accept the fact) that your job prospects upon graduation are terrible. I wouldn't waste any money or time going to a school with such bad employment numbers in the first place.

[03152016]

4 out of every 10 california western students loses their scholarship
they're well known for this scam
41.3% of the people they accepted last year got scholarship money
but out of the 117 1Ls getting money, 46 lost it

do not expect to hold onto that money

[Ti Malice]

San Diego rent is relatively cheap.

Relative to what? San Francisco rent? Manhattan rent?

I mean realistically, it wouldn't be 100k.

No, it very easily could be. It could very easily be considerably more.

With tuition increases, he'll be borrowing for ~$35K (pre-interest) for tuition alone. With Grad PLUS loans, he's looking at ~$3K just in origination fees over the three years. If he borrows for the stated remaining cost of attendance, like most students, he's looking at ~$130K of debt at the start of repayment. If he borrows for just two-thirds of the stated remaining COA ($16K per year for everything but tuition, with ~$700 of that going down the toilet each year just for the privilege of taking out the loan), then he'll owe right around $100K at repayment.

It would take more than a "reasonably modest" lifestyle for him to enter repayment with significantly less than $100K in loan debt from Cal Western.

[Moneytrees]

I reall

San Diego rent is relatively cheap.

Relative to what? San Francisco rent? Manhattan rent?

I mean realistically, it wouldn't be 100k.

No, it very easily could be. It could very easily be considerably more.

With tuition increases, he'll be borrowing for ~$35K (pre-interest) for tuition alone. With Grad PLUS loans, he's looking at ~$3K just in origination fees over the three years. If he borrows for the stated remaining cost of attendance, like most students, he's looking at ~$130K of debt at the start of repayment. If he borrows for just two-thirds of the stated remaining COA ($16K per year for everything but tuition, with ~$700 of that going down the toilet each year just for the privilege of taking out the loan), then he'll owe right around $100K at repayment.

It would take more than a "reasonably modest" lifestyle for him to enter repayment with significantly less than $100K in loan debt from Cal Western.

Cost of attendance is obviously not 25 grand a year, if you are living reasonably modestly. I know this because I lived in San Diego. If cost of law school is around 35, it would be pretty hard to spend another 40, let alone 65, over 3 years.

Rent in San Diego is cheap relative to most major cities. If you have a roommate, you can live near the Gaslamp District or in Little Italy for around 800 bucks a month. If you move inland a bit or decide to get a cheap place near La Jolla, you can have your own room for around 600 dollars a month (you would be splitting an apartment with other people, though).

I spent around 15 grand a year in living expenses in college. Maybe even less. Granted, I was a poor college kid and lived very modestly. Perhaps I'm underestimating cost of living. I just have a very hard time seeing how you could spend 70 thousand dollars on rent, food and basic amenities in 3 years. San Diego isn't Manhattan or SF.

[whitespider]

Retake or you'll regret your life.

True story.

[Moneytrees]

I reall

San Diego rent is relatively cheap.

Relative to what? San Francisco rent? Manhattan rent?

I mean realistically, it wouldn't be 100k.

No, it very easily could be. It could very easily be considerably more.

With tuition increases, he'll be borrowing for ~$35K (pre-interest) for tuition alone. With Grad PLUS loans, he's looking at ~$3K just in origination fees over the three years. If he borrows for the stated remaining cost of attendance, like most students, he's looking at ~$130K of debt at the start of repayment. If he borrows for just two-thirds of the stated remaining COA ($16K per year for everything but tuition, with ~$700 of that going down the toilet each year just for the privilege of taking out the loan), then he'll owe right around $100K at repayment.

It would take more than a "reasonably modest" lifestyle for him to enter repayment with significantly less than $100K in loan debt from Cal Western.

Cost of attendance is obviously not 25 grand a year, if you are living reasonably modestly. I know this because I lived in San Diego. If cost of law school is around 35, it would be pretty hard to spend another 40, let alone 65, over 3 years.

Rent in San Diego is cheap relative to most major cities. If you have a roommate, you can live near the Gaslamp District or in Little Italy for around 800 bucks a month. If you move inland a bit or decide to get a cheap place near La Jolla, you can have your own room for around 600 dollars a month (you would be splitting an apartment with other people, though).

I spent around 15 grand a year in living expenses in college. Maybe even less. Granted, I was a poor college kid and lived very modestly. Perhaps I'm underestimating cost of living. I just have a very hard time seeing how you could spend 70 thousand dollars on rent, food and basic amenities in 3 years. San Diego isn't Manhattan or SF.

I forgot to mention that my junior year I actually only paid 425 a month in rent. I had a roommate, but the apartments around UTC are actually pretty nice and affordable due to UCSD being so close by. If you hustle and live within your means, OP, I think you would spend considerably less than 100k to go to Cal Western.

That being said, with a good LSAT score OP could get full rides to much better schools. Hell, even USD (which throws scholarships to applicants like its nothing) would be better than California Western. Going there is very hard to justify, even at a discount.

[Ti Malice]

I reall

San Diego rent is relatively cheap.

Relative to what? San Francisco rent? Manhattan rent?

I mean realistically, it wouldn't be 100k.

No, it very easily could be. It could very easily be considerably more.

With tuition increases, he'll be borrowing for ~$35K (pre-interest) for tuition alone. With Grad PLUS loans, he's looking at ~$3K just in origination fees over the three years. If he borrows for the stated remaining cost of attendance, like most students, he's looking at ~$130K of debt at the start of repayment. If he borrows for just two-thirds of the stated remaining COA ($16K per year for everything but tuition, with ~$700 of that going down the toilet each year just for the privilege of taking out the loan), then he'll owe right around $100K at repayment.

It would take more than a "reasonably modest" lifestyle for him to enter repayment with significantly less than $100K in loan debt from Cal Western.

Cost of attendance is obviously not 25 grand a year, if you are living reasonably modestly. I know this because I lived in San Diego. If cost of law school is around 35, it would be pretty hard to spend another 40, let alone 65, over 3 years.

Rent in San Diego is cheap relative to most major cities. If you have a roommate, you can live near the Gaslamp District or in Little Italy for around 800 bucks a month. If you move inland a bit or decide to get a cheap place near La Jolla, you can have your own room for around 600 dollars a month (you would be splitting an apartment with other people, though).

I spent around 15 grand a year in living expenses in college. Maybe even less. Granted, I was a poor college kid and lived very modestly. Perhaps I'm underestimating cost of living. I just have a very hard time seeing how you could spend 70 thousand dollars on rent, food and basic amenities in 3 years. San Diego isn't Manhattan or SF.

You're aware that law school loans accrue interest (at obscene rates) from the moment they're disbursed, right? These aren't subsidized undergrad loans. That $35K is pre-interest debt for tuition alone. If he spends the $15K per year that you did to live very modestly, he's still coming out with right around $100K of debt at the start of repayment.

Also, it's a side issue at this point, but you really should look up and compare SD rents to rents in other major American cities.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I would chose to be a POW for a year in Iraq before I spent three years, and any amount of money, at either of those schools.

[TheSpanishMain]

Both are potentially life ruining. Do not attend either even if free. What's your LSAT/GPA?

[McAvoy]

Both are potentially life ruining. Do not attend either even if free.

[cron1834]

Ti Malice is very definitely correct about living expenses. $40k for the full gamut of life expenses (including interest) in SD for 3 years is a laughable suggestion, even if you cheat on health ins somehow.

That said, this doesn't seem like an op that wants honest feedback...

[CWvsSU]

It's not that I don't want honest feedback, it's just that I was looking at two options here, not necessarily a third. I am already well aware from family members in the legal field that neither is a good option. Unfortunately, I've taken the LSAT 4 times and given it a good shot.

[whitespider]

If you can't get a decent LSAT score and won't have the benefit of a good legal education, what makes you think you'll be able to pas the bar?

[Moneytrees]

Ti Malice is very definitely correct about living expenses. $40k for the full gamut of life expenses (including interest) in SD for 3 years is a laughable suggestion, even if you cheat on health ins somehow.

That said, this doesn't seem like an op that wants honest feedback...

I think it's very realistic. I personally did it. Sure, if he lives in the Gaslamp, travels a ton, and borrows every cent of tuition, it could get pricey. I still think it would fall way below 100k, though. A good friend of mine lives in Del Mar (very close to SD and a generally affluent area) and landed a pretty good job out of college. Despite that, he's been renting a room from a family for 500 bucks a month. Our friends make fun of him for still living like he's in college at 26, but his living expenses are very low. OP could easily swing something similar and spend around 15k a year on rent, food and basic amenities.

If you spend 70 thousand dollars in 3 years, you are not living a modest lifestyle, simple as that. Anyways, OP, you should listen to what everyone on here is saying. It's for your own good.

[pancakes3]

Borderline tangential question though, from what I've read about SD "biglaw" is that they try to keep it in the alumni network. Correct me if I'm wrong but there does exist a marginal upside there as opposed to a T4 elsewhere?

[Ti Malice]

Ti Malice is very definitely correct about living expenses. $40k for the full gamut of life expenses (including interest) in SD for 3 years is a laughable suggestion, even if you cheat on health ins somehow.

That said, this doesn't seem like an op that wants honest feedback...

I think it's very realistic. I personally did it. Sure, if he lives in the Gaslamp, travels a ton, and borrows every cent of tuition, it could get pricey. I still think it would fall way below 100k, though. A good friend of mine lives in Del Mar (very close to SD and a generally affluent area) and landed a pretty good job out of college. Despite that, he's been renting a room from a family for 500 bucks a month. Our friends make fun of him for still living like he's in college at 26, but his living expenses are very low. OP could easily swing something similar and spend around 15k a year on rent, food and basic amenities.

If you spend 70 thousand dollars in 3 years, you are not living a modest lifestyle, simple as that. Anyways, OP, you should listen to what everyone on here is saying. It's for your own good.

Dude, I'm not sure how you're missing this. Where is spending $70K on COL coming from? You said that you spent $15K per year on COL to live "very modestly." It's an inarguable mathematical fact that if he spends $15K per year on all non-tuition related expenses ($45K in total on COL, not $70K), he will graduate with right around $100K of debt. This is not a matter of philosophical conjecture and debate. It's simple math.