Advice? Forum

[sas11]

I'm a rising senior at a private liberal-arts college in Ohio. I'm a female Political Science major with minors in English Literature and Legal Studies. My cumulative GPA is a 3.4 and I am a member of 3 honors societies. I have an extensive resume due to my involvement on campus and I am interning at a local Cleveland law firm this fall semester. I'm currently studying for the LSAT and taking it in September but so far my practice tests have me at a 165. I'm not sure what type of law I would like to practice; I have interests in criminal prosecution, personal injury and litigation. I plan to attend law school in either DC or NYC; my dream schools are Georgetown and Columbia. I'm wondering what my chances are at either of those schools and suggestions on other schools I should apply to in DC or NYC? Maybe any advice on improving my chances at Georgetown or Columbia? Thanks!

[Tiago Splitter]

1. Don't settle for a 165. Study for the LSAT like you've never studied before. Retake if you score below 170.

2. Get straight A's this year and pull your GPA up a little. Every little bit helps. You won't want to hear this, but in order for all the great senior year grades you're about to get to count, you'll need to hold off on applying by a year. The nice thing is this will give you tons of extra time to study for the LSAT.

With a 3.4/165 law school doesn't make any sense, especially in DC and NYC. But with the improved GPA and LSAT you are going to snag after taking my advice, you'll be in a good position for your target schools. Apply to all of the T-14 and use acceptances to leverage scholarship money.

Also, keep an open mind about where to go to school. It's much easier to make a bad decision if you limit your choices only to DC and NYC, and there are schools that place really well in both of those markets that aren't located in either one.

[03152016]

as tiago said, retake is in order

but i'm not getting your school selection - why gulc and cls in particular, that seems odd
what are your goals

[cron1834]

Tiago killed it here. Do all those things. If you apply this fall with that gpa and an lsat within that ballpark, you have zero chance at your goals. If you drive that gpa up and improve your exam performance, things will open up.

[Christina AA]

As the first replier said, you need to improve your GPA significantly and score in the range of at five points higher on the actual LSAT in order to be competitive at Columbia and Georgetown. You can do that by waiting to apply until after your senior year of college and by taking and re-taking the LSAT as needed. But it also sounds like you need to come to a clearer understanding of what you are looking for in a law school and in your future career. You need to have a compelling narrative of who you are and will become for your personal statement. That will also help.

[Mack.Hambleton]

also most honor societies are basically scams

[Yea All Right]

LSAT/GPA are exponentially more important than anything else on your application, including and especially softs and on-campus involvement, so focus all of your effort on getting straight A's and a high LSAT score. With your current GPA you'll probably need to get at least a 168-169 on the LSAT to get into Georgetown and a 171-172 to have a chance at Columbia, assuming you're not an under-represented minority.

As Tiago said, take a gap year or more between undergrad and law school so that your senior year grades will be calculated into your application GPA and raise it up (if you were able to get straight A's or close as mentioned above). If you don't take time off and instead decide to apply this fall, then you will be applying with that 3.4 GPA and the odds will be stacked against you. Also try not to be so focused on Georgetown and Columbia. Cornell, Virginia, Penn, and NYU should fit your goals as well, and those are just in the T14. I'm sure there are many other schools that you should apply to also; GWU and Fordham come to mind.

[Yea All Right]

also most honor societies are basically scams

Agreed. The only honor society worth anything is Phi Beta Kappa, and OP won't qualify for that due to their GPA.

[sas11]

Wow, thanks everyone for the advice! I haven't really considered taking a year off until now. If I were to take a year off I would need/want to find a job in the legal field. I'm just not sure what legal jobs I could get as a Poli Sci major without a law degree?

As far as my goals, I'm not sure the exact type of law I want to practice. But I do know I love the idea of being in a court room in front of a judge advocating for a client. From what I've heard I won't get much time in a court room at a big law firm (at least for the first couple years?) so my thought was to study criminal law/trial advocacy/litigation and start off at a county prosecutor's office somewhere. Then I would see where my career takes me and hopefully end up a litigator for a private firm. I'm not sure how realistic that is?

Unfortunately, the pre-law advisor at my school isn't very helpful so I'm basing all this off research I've done myself.

[Tiago Splitter]

Working in a legal capacity would be great to help you figure out whether law school and the legal profession are right for you, but you definitely don't need to do that kind of work. Just get any job or pursue any volunteer opportunity that interests you.

If your goal is to work as a prosecutor or public defender the best move is to minimize debt, which certainly takes Columbia and likely takes Georgetown out of the running. With your GPA it will be hard to get a lot of money at T-14 schools, so you may have to go to a more regionally focused school to keep your debt down. Figure out where you want to work, and go there for the lowest possible cost, avoiding the schools with truly pathetic placement. Still work to get the highest possible LSAT score; if you can manage the numbers for Columbia you will have plenty of other great options, and if you take some more time to think about what you want to do you might decide that you want to go for the increased flexibility a T-14 degree provides.

[star fox]

also most honor societies are basically scams

Agreed. The only honor society worth anything is Phi Beta Kappa, and OP won't qualify for that due to their GPA.

I doubt Phi Beta Kappa does much if anything for an application either. The main benefit of it is that it signals a high GPA, but law schools see your LSAC GPA anyways.

[hillz]

Working in a legal capacity would be great to help you figure out whether law school and the legal profession are right for you, but you definitely don't need to do that kind of work. Just get any job or pursue any volunteer opportunity that interests you.

+1

Taking a year off is a good idea. Yes, it is scary to find a job and go out in the real world but I think you will likely have a much better idea of who you are and what you want to do with a law degree by the time you are ready to apply. Although I did at first, I don't envy my friends who went straight into graduate school because they are now having trouble getting jobs without any significant job experience.

You shouldn't feel as though you have to take a job as a paralegal or in the legal field at all. I currently work at a non-profit and the experience I've gained here has really helped me hone in on what kind of law I want to practice. After 2 years, I feel ready to apply to law school and feel much more confident about the direction in which I'm headed. Good luck to you!

[timbs4339]

Re finding a job: search the list of major law firms in the region and apply to be a paralegal. The bigger law firms look for smart kids with law school ambitions for 2 year positions that are decently paid. Then you can see for yourself if the big firm route is for you or not. You can also do the same thing at DA/PD offices although they probably don't hire paralegals with no experience.

If you find that your extracurriculars are detracting from your grades, drop the extracurriculars. Every extra .1 on the GPA or point on the LSAT is (literally) gold right now.

[pancakes3]

If you find that your extracurriculars are detracting from your grades, drop the extracurriculars. Every extra .1 on the GPA or point on the LSAT is (literally) gold right now.

And what he/she means by that goes beyond just the application and getting in. Scholarship money is at play. Georgetown (abbreviated as GULC) at sticker price is so expensive to the point where it might not even make sense to go if you were accepted. You also should probably drop the idea of a "dream school" because of whatever reason you've preassumed and dig into research about employment stats. Employment stats > USNWR rankings. It's after you've raised your GPA, maxed out your LSAT (retakes are likely), done your research about the employment prospects out there for various schools, done your research about the schools that help you look into those employment prospects, and evaluate how much it'll cost in total based on living expenses/tuition/room&board etc, will you be able to make a rational and sound decision.

edit to add:
I just had a "casual" conversation with an associate dean during my orientation lunch - I'm a 1L just starting - just shooting the shit. He asked me what field I was potentially interested in and I told him that I've got no preconceived notions and no grand designs. I followed it up by saying that as of right now I just want to collect as many A's as I can. He paused for a sec and I was a little worried that I got "too real" on him and he told me that 5-10 years ago he would have given me a lecture about the passion of law and caution against grade gunning at the expense of desire and learning but in today's legal market it's a completely different beast and that he doesn't fault me. It was single handedly the scariest piece of advice I've ever received.

nonsequiter to add:
The lunch the day before someone asked the table (all students, no profs or deans) what kind of law we were looking for and one guy unabashedly said "Corporate biglaw for sure." so quickly, I'm pretty sure he had it chambered and was waiting for someone to break the ice with that. Part of me really admires the balls on this guy to say under a thin guise of subtext that he plans/expects to beat every single one of us on the curve (T2 school...) and so nonchalantly at that. Most of me just hates him though.