Masters before JD for International Students? Forum

[randytheaviator]

First post here hello everyone!

I'm an international student (non-native english speaker), currently in #1 undergrad law program in a civil law- and the biggest- country in Southeast Asia. Been thinking about a JD sometime in the future.

I'm expecting a GPA of at least 3,5/4; school has no A+; A is 85 and above, A- is 80-85, and below C is fail (C is 55-60) (honestly not sure about the LSAC GPA thing). I'm worried the most with the LSAT score (which i assume is the most important factor for Int'l students, right?), and of course with the rest of the credentials for being int'l applicants. I'm thinking of these possible strategies

Scenario 1: MA Philosophy alone (from US Top terminal MA program, according to Leiter)
Scenario 2: MA Philosophy + further degree in Philosophy? (ex. Oxford BPhil or other UK research masters)
Scenario 3: MA Philosophy + Law masters (ex. Oxford MJur, or other LLM in UK/US)
Scenario 4: MA Philosophy + Law masters + further degree in Law (ex. Oxford MPhil -hell, let's say to DPhil, or US JSD)
Scenario 5: MA Philosophy + further degree in Philosophy + Law masters
Scenario 6: Law masters only
Scenario 7: Law masters + more advanced degree in Law
Scenario 8: applying to LS and sitting the LSAT with only that undergrad degree and a couple of years of big law firm work experience in home country.
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what do you think about these scenarios? or maybe you can think of a better one? or perhaps any Master is USELESS or even looked down on the admission process?

I think i'd want to be further educated in english-speaking countries before enrolling to JD because:
1) more expose to English, and in Philosophy, will have good impact for the LSAT
2) better the credentials overall
*Could those 2 reasons above be not the case?

Regarding why would i want a JD and how could i come up with such an idea, i guess this is just me trying to assess "a possible future".

Just now i realize the structure of my post is very bad, sorry for the inconvenice, and thank you in advance for the answers!

[cron1834]

I wouldn't say a master's is TOTALLY useless, but as someone with two of them, I can assure you that they're not super-helpful, either. Dominating the LSAT and improving your English are going to be worth a dozen master's.

[twenty]

MAs in Philosophy are completely worthless. Legal work experience in your home country is a far better option.

Also, JDs in the United States are ridiculously expensive. If you don't want to work in the United States, don't spend three years of your life + tons of debt getting a worthless degree.

[Nova]

getting a masters for the sake of better law school admissions chances is a huge waste of time & money

[lawlorbust]

...

[BKB]

I would say getting a master is not a terrible idea if you wish to aim HYS. Most JD students in HYS with foreign UGs do have US masters. Outside HYS, a master won't really add much, if anything, for your chance of admission. And a master has nothing to do with your LSAT.

If you want to go back to your home country to practice, LLM should be enough. If you want to stay in the US, however, JD is almost a necessity.

[heythatslife]

Get a LLM. Absurd to be considering a JD.

That would depend on whether the OP wants to work in the US or not. For foreign attorneys with well-established careers back home who want to broaden their horizons and/or add to their credentials, an LLM is just fine. If the OP wants to find employment in the US, a JD is pretty much a requisite, especially if he has no prior experience as a practicing attorney.

[randytheaviator]

Thank you for the replies guys. But seems like some of my questions haven't been quite answered yet, perhaps because how badly i organized them.

For intro let me say that i understand the difference of and what comes after LLM and JD, and in this thread i'd be glad if we discuss on the JD admission matter only. That being said, yes, the plan is to practice law in the States.
And also just to be clear, by the time i apply, i think i will have at least 2-3 years (maybe more) of lawyering experience, that must be the case because attending US.LS straight from undergrad isn't visible at all for me, even with full tuition.

Most JD students in HYS with foreign UGs do have US masters. Outside HYS, a master won't really add much, if anything, for your chance of admission.

Thank you for the info. *Can you be more precise about what kind of masters those HYS students with foreign UGs have? And say that i'm gunning for HYS (which is really the case) in which a masters would help, do you think that as someone who have undergrad foreign law degree i should be doing masters in Law or in other subject? (can you help choosing from my "scenarios" above) and *why?

*Can i also know why masters wouldn't be much regarded outside HYS?

My logic (behind "the masters plan") is pretty simple actually: When the adcom is not familiar with my undergrad institution (despite being the best in my country), and then i can gain admission to Oxbridge or other top institution for masters, wouldn't this indicate my capabilites to them? CMIIW

getting a masters for the sake of better law school admissions chances is a huge waste of time & money

And a master has nothing to do with your LSAT.

Again CMIIW really, but from my point of view at least i can see that any kind of "living/studying-overseas experience for sometime" where English is the first language would be very much of a help for people like me who lives in nonenglish-speaking countries for all our life for we'll have conversations, discuss with classmates and professors, write papers, pretty much do everything in English. I don't see how it won't help with the, say LSAT RC, or even fluency in deciphering Logic Games. Ultimately i can see that it will help me familiarizing with english-speaking lectures, something i'll get if i got accepted into JD program.
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Lastly *i wonder whether or not my undergrad law degree will be looked down upon, compared to other int'l applicants who, majored in other subjects. It got me thinking whether my law degree will be regarded same with that of a "pre-law" major. I also have concern whether the two have similarities substantially (that responsible for hurting pre law major LSAT score).

Thank you all!

[Nova]

Again CMIIW really, but from my point of view at least i can see that any kind of "living/studying-overseas experience for sometime" where English is the first language would be very much of a help for people like me who lives in nonenglish-speaking countries for all our life for we'll have conversations, discuss with classmates and professors, write papers, pretty much do everything in English. I don't see how it won't help with the, say LSAT RC, or even fluency in deciphering Logic Games. Ultimately i can see that it will help me familiarizing with english-speaking lectures, something i'll get if i got accepted into JD program.
--
Thank you all!

is moving to a place where English is everyones first language not an option without doing a masters course? A MA isn't gonna have a big effect on your LS cycle, its gonna cost u a lot of money, and its gonna tie you up for 2 years (when u could get it in 1 if u do a duel LS-MA program).

the same words are used over and over in logic games to the point where its embarrassingly formulaic. so that shouldn't b a factor. & the best way to get better at RC is to do a bunch of RC & read college level reading material.

Lastly *i wonder whether or not my undergrad law degree will be looked down upon, compared to other int'l applicants who, majored in other subjects. It got me thinking whether my law degree will be regarded same with that of a "pre-law" major. I also have concern whether the two have similarities substantially (that responsible for hurting pre law major LSAT score).

not a factor. your major generally makes no difference in ls admissions

and the reason prelaw students do bad on the lsat is not BECAUSE they chose that major

[BKB]

I agree with all the other posters that masters are typically useless for LS admissions. But things are a little different for international UG applicants. As you said, the adcom may not be familiar with your UG, and a master at a prestigious institution would indicate your ability to survive in English academic environment. And recommendation letters from US/UK professors can also be of huge help for you.

The type of masters doesn't really matter. You can do whatever you prefer (just be sure to come up with a reasonable story on why you did this master in your LS ps). As long as you do well academically, the master will help.

The reason HYS (maybe further adding UC and CU; they can also be quite picky) prefer US master degrees for international applicants is because they can afford to be picky. HYS see many high-scoring international applicants, and they won't admit them all. Given two candidates with the same LSAT score, why not choose the one who has proven that he can do well in a US academic institution?

But for other law schools, they can't be that picky and generally care more about keeping their LSAT medians high. You have a good chance as long as your LSAT is higher than their medians. (Some other law schools are "picky" for other reasons, though, e.g. Virginia for yield protection).

LLM is fine. One advantage of LLM is that some law schools allow the top-performing LLM students to transfer into their JD programs. Chicago, Penn, Columbia, Virginia all allow (or used to allow) that.

What matters for LSAT is your English reading and your reasoning ability. A reading-intensive master program may help your English a bit, but you still need to spend months dedicated to LSAT. Whatever benefit you may get from a master program with regard to LSAT, you can get 100 times that benefit by spending that time actually preparing the LSAT.