'Above average' from Oxford and HYS Forum

[privatemember2012]

Hi all,

I applied to HYS in the 12/13 cycle and was waitlisted at all three. At that time I had a 'superior' LSAC evaluation having completed two out of three years at Oxford studying Philosophy, Politics and Economics. I had scored 171 on my first and only LSAT sitting and had what I imagine were some decent LORs.

Since then, my situation has changed somewhat. I got a 2.1 from Oxford last year - a 67.75 when 67.8 was the cutoff for a first. In other words, one more point out of 800 would've gotten me a first. When I resubmitted my transcript to LSAC, they downgraded me to 'above average' which naturally lowers my chances at the best schools.

My question therefore is this: does an above average evaluation rule me out of HYS out of hand? Assuming I spend a few months studying and score 174+ on the LSAT, would I have a chance?

This last year I did a Masters in Economics at the LSE and got a distinction (top 15%). Although I know LSAC doesnt look at postgrad, I feel that this strong result from one of the most rigorous programs in Europe would lend support to my case if I were to write an addendum explaining the above average. Any thoughts on this?

For me law school really only makes sense were I to attend HYS and maybe Columbia, so I would like to know whether it would be worth putting in the effort and studying for the LSAT. Thanks in advance.

[yomisterd]

Why get a law degree? Is the job market for Econ/finance killer in London?

[twenty]

For me law school really only makes sense were I to attend HYS and maybe Columbia,

This is silly. Don't go to law school at all if the only places you can go will cost you an exorbitant amount of money.

[Chrstgtr]

Unless you're dead set on law, a degree from LSE with distinction will land you in a far better place than any job out of law school. Don't waste three years, tuition, and lost income.

[Blythe17]

Why is everyone assuming OP hasn't thought through his choice of attending law school over econ/finance and not answering his question?

privatemember2012, I'm not too familiar with the british grading system nor with how evaluations are compared to GPA, but here are my 2 cents:

Using a crude conversion system (informed by http://www.hotcoursesabroad.com/study-i ... tem-in-uk/), your application from last cycle might be summarized as a ~4.0 GPA and a 171. Considering that the 171 is below the median at both H and Y, and that S can be a bit unpredictable, it's not incredibly surprising that you got waitlisted.

This time around, your application might be something like a 3.83 and a 174+ (assuming that a first = A and your upper second, properly explained in an addendum, translates to a 3.5). Now you have the reverse situation where your LSAT is above the medians but your GPA is not. However, even assuming that this might, all else being equal, leave you waitlisted again, this time you have high marks at LSE, which I would think is a very strong contributor to softs--something that sounds like enough to push you out of the waitlist. So I'd guess your chances are better this time around.

Also, I don't know how to back it up but I get the feeling I'd be more confident with a 3.83-174 than a 4.0-171. Simply going from 171 to 174 seems like a huge advantage (non-99%-tile to 99%-tile). Can anyone shed some light on this?

[TheJanitor6203]

I get the feeling I'd be more confident with a 3.83-174 than a 4.0-171. Simply going from 171 to 174 seems like a huge advantage (non-99%-tile to 99%-tile). Can anyone shed some light on this?

I think this is tcr.

Also, I think strictly limiting yourself to YHS is silly. With your numbers, you should get into most of the T14 with $$$.

[Hand]

[twenty]

Why is everyone assuming OP hasn't thought through his choice of attending law school over econ/finance and not answering his question?

Because OP will get a lot of money at the lower T14s, just not at HYS + C. If OP is in a place where a law degree from NYU won't accomplish his goals, but Columbia would, he shouldn't go to law school, period.

Furthermore, regardless of the "superior" vs "above average" rating, OP's GPA will be evaluated by all the schools he's looking at as median. While HYS might care about that distinction, I can't imagine UVA (the admissions gaming prom queen) giving up someone at/above medians because of the academic translation.

[Cradle6]

Why would a school care too much about GPA if OP is international?

His/her GPA won't affect rankings.

[Straw_Mandible]

Why would a school care too much about GPA if OP is international?

His/her GPA won't affect rankings.

This. HYS only care about "superior" international grades to demonstrate that the applicant is an excellent student and can handle the workload. This distinction does nothing to help the schools maintain their medians. The 171 LSAT was likely the deciding factor in OP's previous application cycle, and since it was below median, OP was waitlisted. Retaking for 174+ -- even while dropping from superior to above average -- should put OP in a much better position to be accepted by one of HYSC.

[FinalFour]

What does Columbia do for you that Chicago or NYU wouldn't? (not criticizing or making a point, I'm genuinely curious)

[twenty]

Unless you're dead set on law, a degree from LSE with distinction will land you in a far better place than any job out of law school. Don't waste three years, tuition, and lost income.

I'm curious to know what you mean by this. I didn't think anyone took LSE so seriously that their outcomes are far better than HYSC.

[AntipodeanPhil]

I was an international applicant a couple of years ago, and I'm currently a 2L at HYS.

I did a lot of research a couple of years ago, and at that point the only international students I could find online that had been admitted to HYS had 'superior' evaluations. I still think OP stands a decent chance at HYS, though. HYS loves Oxford, and a Masters in Economics will help. As people have mentioned above, law schools don't have to report GPAs for international students, so HYS will only care about OP's grades as an indication of his ability.

I was in a somewhat similar position to OP when I applied. While I got a 'superior' evaluation, I had weak grades by US standards (because there's much less grade inflation in my home country), from an a university no one in the US has heard of. I did, however, have a postgraduate degree from a well-know US university with much better grades.

Anyway, it's definitely worth studying for the LSAT.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Why is everyone assuming OP hasn't thought through his choice of attending law school over econ/finance and not answering his question?

Because OP will get a lot of money at the lower T14s, just not at HYS + C. If OP is in a place where a law degree from NYU won't accomplish his goals, but Columbia would, he shouldn't go to law school, period.

No he/she won't. The t14 very seldom give big scholarships to internationals. Unless OP has wealthy parents, he might get more in need-based aid from HYS than he gets from any of the lower t14.

Makes sense if you think about it. International students can only raise one of a school's medians, since international students don't have GPAs.

[Hand]

[nerd1]

It's not as easy for internationals to get scholarships. One factor was already mentioned above by another poster. Another is that law schools seem to have quotas for international students.

Also, for those internationals who are considering going back to their country or moving to somewhere else after getting their JDs, the prestige or international recognition of their schools will matter. Besides, OP may either be wealthy or at least not as debt-averse as you think he is. We just don't know.

Don't talk down to people without knowing their circumstances.

[twenty]

Why is everyone assuming OP hasn't thought through his choice of attending law school over econ/finance and not answering his question?

Because OP will get a lot of money at the lower T14s, just not at HYS + C. If OP is in a place where a law degree from NYU won't accomplish his goals, but Columbia would, he shouldn't go to law school, period.

No he/she won't. The t14 very seldom give big scholarships to internationals. Unless OP has wealthy parents, he might get more in need-based aid from HYS than he gets from any of the lower t14.

Makes sense if you think about it. International students can only raise one of a school's medians, since international students don't have GPAs.

That's pure silliness if schools don't give out bucketloads of money to international students. These last couple cycles, students at the GPA median and above the LSAT median got a very good amount of money. Northwestern regularly gave out full rides to 172/3.8 numbers, and of the all three admits to UVA in the 171-173 range with 3.88ish GPAs, three of them got 90k or more scholarships.

This should be doubly-true for international students that are entirely reliant on scholarship money for financing. Since the student can't get federal loans, it would be insanely easy to poach an HYS-bound kid for somewhere like Cornell/150k.

[AntipodeanPhil]

That's pure silliness if schools don't give out bucketloads of money to international students. These last couple cycles, students at the GPA median and above the LSAT median got a very good amount of money. Northwestern regularly gave out full rides to 172/3.8 numbers, and of the all three admits to UVA in the 171-173 range with 3.88ish GPAs, three of them got 90k or more scholarships.

This should be doubly-true for international students that are entirely reliant on scholarship money for financing. Since the student can't get federal loans, it would be insanely easy to poach an HYS-bound kid for somewhere like Cornell/150k.

I hadn't thought about that, but I guess it does make less sense as schools get increasingly desperate.

Still, as far as I can tell from the very limited evidence on lawschoolnumbers.com, true (non-North America educated) internationals still aren't getting the big scholarships. Here, for example, is a student that got in to Harvard but got no more than $67k (over three years) from the lower T14, which is the most I got offered a couple of years ago:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/chuchu

[nerd1]

Why is everyone assuming OP hasn't thought through his choice of attending law school over econ/finance and not answering his question?

Because OP will get a lot of money at the lower T14s, just not at HYS + C. If OP is in a place where a law degree from NYU won't accomplish his goals, but Columbia would, he shouldn't go to law school, period.

No he/she won't. The t14 very seldom give big scholarships to internationals. Unless OP has wealthy parents, he might get more in need-based aid from HYS than he gets from any of the lower t14.

Makes sense if you think about it. International students can only raise one of a school's medians, since international students don't have GPAs.

That's pure silliness if schools don't give out bucketloads of money to international students. These last couple cycles, students at the GPA median and above the LSAT median got a very good amount of money. Northwestern regularly gave out full rides to 172/3.8 numbers, and of the all three admits to UVA in the 171-173 range with 3.88ish GPAs, three of them got 90k or more scholarships.

This should be doubly-true for international students that are entirely reliant on scholarship money for financing. Since the student can't get federal loans, it would be insanely easy to poach an HYS-bound kid for somewhere like Cornell/150k.

1. Why would adcoms prefer an international applicant with "Average" (or "Above average" whatever, virtually no GPA) and 173 over a domestic applicant with 4.0 and 173? If this forum's view that schools are obsessed with rankings is true, then it makes sense that for the sake of raising their rankings, they would be less willing to give out $$ to international applicants.

2. Law schools are generally reluctant to accept international applicants, since international job candidates would be disadvantaged in the US legal job market. Colleges are different. The students who get their bachelors from US colleges typically return to their home countries. On the other hand, international law school applicants typically seek to become American lawyers.

[fixnroll]

1. Why would adcoms prefer an international applicant with "Average" (or "Above average" whatever, virtually no GPA) and 173 over a domestic applicant with 4.0 and 173? If this forum's view that schools are obsessed with rankings is true, then it makes sense that for the sake of raising their rankings, they would be less willing to give out $$ to international applicants.

2. Law schools are generally reluctant to accept international applicants, since international job candidates would be disadvantaged in the US legal job market. Colleges are different. The students who get their bachelors from US colleges typically return to their home countries. On the other hand, international law school applicants typically seek to become American lawyers.

True, that's the reason why if international students want to beat domestic ones, they have to get 3+ more LSAT scores to be equally considered. For example, for international students, if you want to get in T3, a 175 is a must, and for T6, a 173 is a must, (maybe for Columbia, you need a 175+ as well). As for scholarship, well.. if you have good LSAT scores, you can definitely get $$$ from lower T14. I know someone with a 170 got full ride from Northwestern, someone with a 172 got 120k from Cornell, someone with 175 got Darrow from Michigan.

But if you have only an "AA" grade, it's highly unlikely you will be admitted to HYS, although sending out an addendum might be helpful.

[privatemember2012]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I should probably clarify a few things. I've actually grown up in the US and am a citizen here so that aspect should be less problematic. And at the risk of sounding like a knob, my parents are willing to pay and if anything are encouraging me to go, largely because they have a romantic old-fashioned view of what law school is and means. So in some sense money is no issue - whether I should go to a T14 instead and save 70-100k which I then donate to charity is a different, though important problem.

It looks like the consensus is that I would have a reasonable shot at the schools I mentioned so in that sense it would be worth studying for the LSAT. Another thing I've noticed is that masters are also given a ranking (S, AA, etc.) so that may work in my favor as well as long as I get a superior, I would think?

I guess the real question to be asked is the one raised at the beginning of the thread - is law school the right choice in my case? I basically want to work in public policy, so I've also been looking at a PhD in that field. Many people on here would say law school is a massive waste of time and money for people who don't want to be lawyers and I think there is some merit in that statement. Finances play a large role in that argument, and as I've said that aspect is largely moot here. In terms of global recognition, networking possibilities, intellectual atmosphere, and overall (and especially interdisciplinary) legal training, Yale and Stanford are unrivalled in my opinion. I'm not sure anything outside the top 3 or 6 makes sense from this (admittedly maybe flawed) perspective. At the moment, what I think I want is rigorous legal training that equips me to work at the highest level of policymaking and gives me valuable connections. I'm also not yet 22 and so have some time to spare (although I am planning to take a couple years off working right now).

Sorry for the essay but wanted to explain myself in more detail. All comments are welcome as I am not set on law school and don't need to decide for some time yet. Just wanted to know if it's time to dust off those LSAT books again.

[twenty]

Honestly, with your masters from LSE, you could probably walk into a top UK PhD program in political science. Oxford/Cambridge has a ton of weight here in the US, but unlike US PhDs, the UK one will take you three years. Ours will take you 6+.

HYS for non-law isn't a complete waste of time by any stretch, especially if you have the money to do it. It sounds like you're not going to get any need-based aid whatsoever based on your financial situation, so you're looking at 200k minimum. Tell you what, apply to the entire T14; if you look at your options and (assuming you get it) HYS is still your top choice, do that. If you get a substantial discount at a school that's almost as good that you may even like better, maybe buy yourself a Ferrari with the difference.

[privatemember2012]

Just spoke to a guy who finished Chicago this year and is going on to biglaw. In his opinion, Yale is the one school that stands truly apart from all the others. He said many of their students do not plan to be lawyers and instead go into academia/government and that their style/content of teaching reflects that. (I'm aware of how incredibly difficult it is to get in.) So I guess if I apply to Yale and a few public policy PhD's, the admissions offices will make my decisions for me...

[jbagelboy]

Just spoke to a guy who finished Chicago this year and is going on to biglaw. In his opinion, Yale is the one school that stands truly apart from all the others. He said many of their students do not plan to be lawyers and instead go into academia/government and that their style/content of teaching reflects that. (I'm aware of how incredibly difficult it is to get in.) So I guess if I apply to Yale and a few public policy PhD's, the admissions offices will make my decisions for me...

I would tend to agree that Yale is the only law program worth attending if you don't intend to practice.

Moreover, I wouldn't attend any law school if I wasn't okay with actually being an attorney for at least a few years.

We have a decently sized Oxford community at CLS, if that matters to you. I'll actually be spending next spring at Oxford for a program as well. Good luck!