179/3.85 - Is it worth applying anywhere other than HYSCCN? Forum

[arturobelano]

I'm just wondering whether it's worth the application fees. I think my softs are probably a bit above average - student government executive positions, prestigious internships, coauthor on a biology paper, principal author on published philosophy and literature articles. My one concern is whether it's reasonable to expect a full scholly to somewhere in the CCN tier, or if I should throw in UM or something as well.

[ymmv]

I'm just wondering whether it's worth the application fees. I think my softs are probably a bit above average - student government executive positions, prestigious internships, coauthor on a biology paper, principal author on published philosophy and literature articles. My one concern is whether it's reasonable to expect a full scholly to somewhere in the CCN tier, or if I should throw in UM or something as well.

Emphatic yes to your subject question. Blanket the T14 to get as many full ride offers as possible and have your royal pick of the litter. Your applications will not cost you anything but a few hours of your time anyway. Don't be lazy.

[bombaysippin]

Yea definitely blanket T14. You never know when you might be able to leverage schollies for better offers.

[rebexness]

You'll probably get waivers for much of the T14 anyway- so you'd only be paying the LSAC fee. Worth it for negotiation purposes.

[Mullens]

I'm just wondering whether it's worth the application fees. I think my softs are probably a bit above average - student government executive positions, prestigious internships, coauthor on a biology paper, principal author on published philosophy and literature articles. My one concern is whether it's reasonable to expect a full scholly to somewhere in the CCN tier, or if I should throw in UM or something as well.

Yes, admissions and scholarship decisions can still be unpredictable. It may be worth it for the purposes of scholarship negotiation and there is a non-zero chance you don't get a full-ride offer from any of CCN.

You will probably get fee waivers to every T7-14 (or you should request them if you do not) and so you will only be out the cost of the CAS Report (was $25 this past cycle but will probably go up a bit) for each school you decide to apply to. Given that it could potentially be worth tens

You will also need to be wary of yield protection, where schools waitlist or deny applicants with numbers like yours if they don't write any supplemental essays or show significant interest, because it affects their yields and USNWR rankings.

[oxie]

I had very similar numbers and based on my cycle I'd be pretty surprised if you don't get big money at any of CCN. But the full scholarships can be hard to predict and you should be offered plenty of fee waivers, so I think it's a good idea to apply more broadly.

Probably the only lower T14 that won't offer you a fee waiver is Berkeley -- decide for yourself if that's worth the app fee for you since they only do matching scholarships for merit aid.

I'd also particularly recommend applying to Duke assuming they offer you priority track treatment (a fee waiver plus a guaranteed decision within 10 days) -- I applied there first and it was really nice to have an early decision to sort of make sure there weren't any weird problems in my app.

[sims1]

Yea, especially if you don't have amazing softs you definitely aren't a lock at HYS so its worth throwing out the couple hundred bucks to apply across the board. You should get fee waivers from most of the T14 and it gives you good scholarship negotiation leverage if you don't get good schollies from CCN.

[ph14]

It's probably worth it, but you don't have to go crazy with the number of applications.

[ymmv]

It's probably worth it, but you don't have to go crazy with the number of applications.

~14 applications is hardly a "crazy" number.

[ph14]

It's probably worth it, but you don't have to go crazy with the number of applications.

~14 applications is hardly a "crazy" number.

Where did I say that?

[ymmv]

It's probably worth it, but you don't have to go crazy with the number of applications.

~14 applications is hardly a "crazy" number.

Where did I say that?

You posted "you don't have to go crazy with the number of applications" immediately after a slew of posts advising OP to blanket T14. My mistake if that wasn't your intended context.

[Instinctive]

I'm just wondering whether it's worth the application fees. I think my softs are probably a bit above average - student government executive positions, prestigious internships, coauthor on a biology paper, principal author on published philosophy and literature articles. My one concern is whether it's reasonable to expect a full scholly to somewhere in the CCN tier, or if I should throw in UM or something as well.

I was in the same position as you. Different softs, but strong, with slightly better but comparable stats.

I applied to YHS, Chicago, Columbia, Duke, UVA, and Texas(my home state).

If I could go back in time, I probably wouldn't have applied to UVA.

With your stats, you're close to a lock for a Mordecai offer from Duke. I also got the Ruby at Chicago, which is a real possibility. Hamilton at Columbia is a strong possibility as well.

It all depends on what you want - for me, it was always going to come down to which adjoining business schools I got into plus cost. In the end, I ended up choosing between one of Y/S and the Ruby. After getting aid offers, the difference in COA was much lower than I expected going into the process (when I thought a Ruby was my best possible outcome), so I chose Y/S.

I wouldn't apply to all the T14. Just pick the ones you want at the top, and then the ones you want in the middle range, and then one or two fall back plans. If you're going to get a full ride to one school in a range, you don't really need to apply to all the ones below it (e.g. Duke).





TLS doesn't do the best of catering to people with these stats. You're going to get full ride offers, but the site is (rightly) uber conservative about saying this to people because it is only true for those with stats at the very top of both ranges. Why waste even the $25 LSAC fee to send in an app to a school that waived its fee when you basically know you'll get the offer to another school.

Figure out where you want to go after you look at the range of stats that typically get a full ride offer at all the T14 (plus any other target schools) and then decide where you'd go. In hindsight, I wouldn't have wasted the money on the UVA app, because I'd probably have taken the Mordecai at Duke anyway even if UVA offered a scholly. You can't assume a Ruby or Hamilton with your GPA, but they are at least possibilities. If you apply to Duke when they offer you priority track, you can assume a Mordecai offer.

Feel free to PM if you have further questions.

[ymmv]

I'm just wondering whether it's worth the application fees. I think my softs are probably a bit above average - student government executive positions, prestigious internships, coauthor on a biology paper, principal author on published philosophy and literature articles. My one concern is whether it's reasonable to expect a full scholly to somewhere in the CCN tier, or if I should throw in UM or something as well.

I was in the same position as you. Different softs, but strong, with slightly better but comparable stats.

I applied to YHS, Chicago, Columbia, Duke, UVA, and Texas(my home state).

If I could go back in time, I probably wouldn't have applied to UVA.

With your stats, you're close to a lock for a Mordecai offer from Duke. I also got the Ruby at Chicago, which is a real possibility. Hamilton at Columbia is a strong possibility as well.

It all depends on what you want - for me, it was always going to come down to which adjoining business schools I got into plus cost. In the end, I ended up choosing between one of Y/S and the Ruby. After getting aid offers, the difference in COA was much lower than I expected going into the process (when I thought a Ruby was my best possible outcome), so I chose Y/S.

I wouldn't apply to all the T14. Just pick the ones you want at the top, and then the ones you want in the middle range, and then one or two fall back plans. If you're going to get a full ride to one school in a range, you don't really need to apply to all the ones below it (e.g. Duke).





TLS doesn't do the best of catering to people with these stats. You're going to get full ride offers, but the site is (rightly) uber conservative about saying this to people because it is only true for those with stats at the very top of both ranges. Why waste even the $25 LSAC fee to send in an app to a school that waived its fee when you basically know you'll get the offer to another school.

Figure out where you want to go after you look at the range of stats that typically get a full ride offer at all the T14 (plus any other target schools) and then decide where you'd go. In hindsight, I wouldn't have wasted the money on the UVA app, because I'd probably have taken the Mordecai at Duke anyway even if UVA offered a scholly. You can't assume a Ruby or Hamilton with your GPA, but they are at least possibilities. If you apply to Duke when they offer you priority track, you can assume a Mordecai offer.

Feel free to PM if you have further questions.

This is stupid and senseless advice. The apps will cost him $25 a piece.

[cron1834]

^ yeah, I'm always amazed at how people bright enough to generate numbers like that can also be dumb enough to spew idiotic advice. Also, every year there are instances of a candidate with excellent numbers being rejected at school X, whether it be for YP purposes, an off-putting PS, or what-have-you. Don't be entitled, apply broadly and open your mind to possibilities. You can almost certainly afford $25 LSAC fees.

[Instinctive]

^ yeah, I'm always amazed at how people bright enough to generate numbers like that can also be dumb enough to spew idiotic advice. Also, every year there are instances of a candidate with excellent numbers being rejected at school X, whether it be for YP purposes, an off-putting PS, or what-have-you. Don't be entitled, apply broadly and open your mind to possibilities. You can almost certainly afford $25 LSAC fees.

1. Let's keep it civil.

2. Having actually BEEN THROUGH the experience, I kinda know what I'm talking about. Just a little.

3. If he knows he isn't gonna go to Cornell, there's no reason to waste the little time and money. It's easy to predict where you'll get in and only slightly more difficult to predict where you'll get scholarships. The only places you auto blanket with those numbers are YHSCCN. Beyond that, pick your spots. It's not worth your time to go through the process with all 14. TLS is an incredibly conservative sight, which can be a really positive thing. It's good to protect your downside, minimize risk, and prepare for the worst case scenario. But at a certain point, you've performed better, you deal with people better, and you're set up better...so your outcome is going to be better. It's entirely possible that I just got lucky, admittedly, and I should have done what people on TLS were always advising others to do, but I decided I'd rather talk with a couple of actual law school deans and Spivey's team. I trusted them a lot more than a bunch of people on the interwebz, you know? I'd suggest you do the same, even though I bet they'll say what I have said here.

What did YMMV and Cron have happen in their cycles, if they don't mind my asking? Since they seem to know all...


Look, talk to Spivey - he and I had a chat (not a paid consult) and he basically agreed when I laid out my strategy. My contact in YLS's administration said the same thing, and even advised me that UVA would turn out to be a waste of time. They were right.

TLS loves to tell people you aren't a special snowflake, and for 99% of the people on here, that's totally accurate. A 177/3.8 wouldn't be smart to do the same thing I'm advising. And honestly, your (relatively, in this conversation) low uGPA gives me a little bit of pause...but OP will be fine if he does all the research and takes this all into account.



Again, OP, it's your life, so take it fwiw...but not everything here applies to everyone. If you're smart about it, you can save time, effort, and angst pretty easily in this process.


tl;dr - to answer the OP's question, YES apply elsewhere. But you don't need to throw out 14+ applications. It's a waste.




P.S. to OP, if you're a girl, sorry. It's way faster to type "he" than "he/she" every time.

[ymmv]

^ yeah, I'm always amazed at how people bright enough to generate numbers like that can also be dumb enough to spew idiotic advice. Also, every year there are instances of a candidate with excellent numbers being rejected at school X, whether it be for YP purposes, an off-putting PS, or what-have-you. Don't be entitled, apply broadly and open your mind to possibilities. You can almost certainly afford $25 LSAC fees.

1. Let's keep it civil.

2. Having actually BEEN THROUGH the experience, I kinda know what I'm talking about. Just a little.

3. If he knows he isn't gonna go to Cornell, there's no reason to waste the little time and money. It's easy to predict where you'll get in and only slightly more difficult to predict where you'll get scholarships. The only places you auto blanket with those numbers are YHSCCN. Beyond that, pick your spots. It's not worth your time to go through the process with all 14. TLS is an incredibly conservative sight, which can be a really positive thing. It's good to protect your downside, minimize risk, and prepare for the worst case scenario. But at a certain point, you've performed better, you deal with people better, and you're set up better...so your outcome is going to be better. It's entirely possible that I just got lucky, admittedly, and I should have done what people on TLS were always advising others to do, but I decided I'd rather talk with a couple of actual law school deans and Spivey's team. I trusted them a lot more than a bunch of people on the interwebz, you know? I'd suggest you do the same, even though I bet they'll say what I have said here.

What did YMMV and Cron have happen in their cycles, if they don't mind my asking? Since they seem to know all...


Look, talk to Spivey - he and I had a chat (not a paid consult) and he basically agreed when I laid out my strategy. My contact in YLS's administration said the same thing, and even advised me that UVA would turn out to be a waste of time. They were right.

TLS loves to tell people you aren't a special snowflake, and for 99% of the people on here, that's totally accurate. A 177/3.8 wouldn't be smart to do the same thing I'm advising. And honestly, your (relatively, in this conversation) low uGPA gives me a little bit of pause...but OP will be fine if he does all the research and takes this all into account.



Again, OP, it's your life, so take it fwiw...but not everything here applies to everyone. If you're smart about it, you can save time, effort, and angst pretty easily in this process.


tl;dr - to answer the OP's question, YES apply elsewhere. But you don't need to throw out 14+ applications. It's a waste.




P.S. to OP, if you're a girl, sorry. It's way faster to type "he" than "he/she" every time.

This is stupid and senseless advice.

And not that it matters, but since you asked: I was accepted to 7 of the T14 after blanketing and was able to leverage offers quite effectively as a result. FYI.

[Instinctive]

This is stupid and senseless advice.

And not that it matters, but since you asked: I was accepted to 7 of the T14 after blanketing and was able to leverage offers quite effectively as a result. FYI.

1. You are flat our wrong. Sorry about it. Ask people who have worked in the field for years. And by the field, I mean law admissions, not law.

2. Not that you can go back in time or anything, but did you actually need all 14? Or could you tell some of them ahead of time. I honestly believe you can tell with the OP's stats. You can see who will be a YP risk and which ones won't. If you just do the research it makes sense.

Again, all subject to what you're willing to learn and who you know. Again, maybe I was just lucky. But my cycle turned out exactly as I expected it to, with the only deviation being a YP at Columbia. I think it's easy to predict, although, as I said before, the OP's lower uGPA makes more applications a better idea because he's not as safe.

[03152016]

^ yeah, I'm always amazed at how people bright enough to generate numbers like that can also be dumb enough to spew idiotic advice.

idk man
how smart do you have to be to shit out a 3.9 in some bs ug major
and the lsat is so gameable
i did well on it, not bc i'm some braniac, but bc i just hacked away at it for nine months, it's more work ethic than anything
once i learned about ls admissions, i became much less impressed w ppl who get into top law schools
(except yale)

[03152016]

so you talked to spivey and now you're an expert
got it

[cron1834]

so you talked to spivey and now you're an expert
got it

+1

I was rejected at a couple of places I had the numbers for. It happens at every point along the LSAT spectrum. There's literally NO DOWNSIDE in applying to, say, 1 - 13 (we can agree, fuck GULC). Instinctive's attitude is entitled and shortsighted - having the numbers for YLS doesn't mean you're auto-admit with good financial terms. Why run the risk of not having enough $$ somewhere? Why not maximize opportunities for leverage? Again, there's literally zero downside.

[Instinctive]

so you talked to spivey and now you're an expert
got it

+1

I was rejected at a couple of places I had the numbers for. It happens at every point along the LSAT spectrum. There's literally NO DOWNSIDE in applying to, say, 1 - 13 (we can agree, fuck GULC). Instinctive's attitude is entitled and shortsighted - having the numbers for YLS doesn't mean you're auto-admit with good financial terms. Why run the risk of not having enough $$ somewhere? Why not maximize opportunities for leverage? Again, there's literally zero downside.

You're right in that there's no downside. I don't think I've disagreed with that. It just isn't necessary. You can call me entitled (anyone who met me would, I believe, say otherwise but who really knows), but it still doesn't change the fact that it isn't necessary. Which is what the OP asked.

And no, "brut", I'm not an expert. I'm just saying that the people who are agree with me. And I trusted them. And it worked out. Please don't try to put an attitude somewhere it doesn't exist. TIA.


Of course, as with all advice, YMMV. (the acronym, not the user in this thread. Haha.)

Yall have a good night. OP, feel free to PM. I can set you up with some of the people who helped me during my process if you want to talk to the sources. I'm sure some of them would be open to contact as they were with me.

[malleus discentium]

The cute bitching above aside, apply to the whole T14. If you can't afford the $25 that you'll likely be paying for apps, you'll probably qualify for an LSAC fee waiver anyway. If your time is too precious to manage a few extra apps don't go to law school.

[03152016]

so you talked to spivey and now you're an expert
got it

+1

I was rejected at a couple of places I had the numbers for. It happens at every point along the LSAT spectrum. There's literally NO DOWNSIDE in applying to, say, 1 - 13 (we can agree, fuck GULC). Instinctive's attitude is entitled and shortsighted - having the numbers for YLS doesn't mean you're auto-admit with good financial terms. Why run the risk of not having enough $$ somewhere? Why not maximize opportunities for leverage? Again, there's literally zero downside.

You're right in that there's no downside. I don't think I've disagreed with that. It just isn't necessary. You can call me entitled (anyone who met me would, I believe, say otherwise but who really knows), but it still doesn't change the fact that it isn't necessary. Which is what the OP asked.

And no, "brut", I'm not an expert. I'm just saying that the people who are agree with me. And I trusted them. And it worked out. Please don't try to put an attitude somewhere it doesn't exist. TIA.


Of course, as with all advice, YMMV. (the acronym, not the user in this thread. Haha.)

Yall have a good night. OP, feel free to PM. I can set you up with some of the people who helped me during my process if you want to talk to the sources. I'm sure some of them would be open to contact as they were with me.

no op didn't ask whether it was necessary
the name of the thread is "is it worth applying anywhere other than hysccn"
r u srs

[cotiger]

It is not reasonable to expect a CCN full scholarship. Ever. But especially not without a 3.9x.

It's eminently possible that you get something like 75k at chi, 100k at NYU, and the random no aid offer from Columbia. And then also get full-rides at several lower t14. While you might ultimately choose NYU over full-ride duke or whatever in that situation, it's definitely nice to have the option.

It's $150 extra dollars (no gulc or berk). Don't be silly.

[SLS_AMG]

so you talked to spivey and now you're an expert
got it

+1

I was rejected at a couple of places I had the numbers for. It happens at every point along the LSAT spectrum. There's literally NO DOWNSIDE in applying to, say, 1 - 13 (we can agree, fuck GULC). Instinctive's attitude is entitled and shortsighted - having the numbers for YLS doesn't mean you're auto-admit with good financial terms. Why run the risk of not having enough $$ somewhere? Why not maximize opportunities for leverage? Again, there's literally zero downside.

You're right in that there's no downside. I don't think I've disagreed with that. It just isn't necessary. You can call me entitled (anyone who met me would, I believe, say otherwise but who really knows), but it still doesn't change the fact that it isn't necessary. Which is what the OP asked.

And no, "brut", I'm not an expert. I'm just saying that the people who are agree with me. And I trusted them. And it worked out. Please don't try to put an attitude somewhere it doesn't exist. TIA.


Of course, as with all advice, YMMV. (the acronym, not the user in this thread. Haha.)

Yall have a good night. OP, feel free to PM. I can set you up with some of the people who helped me during my process if you want to talk to the sources. I'm sure some of them would be open to contact as they were with me.

This poster regrets applying to UVA. Is that the kind of regret that's going to end up haunting you down the line when it only costed you $25 to apply?

Now imagine you forego this "unnecessary" application to save yourself $25 and something weird happens. You get no full rides, and you didn't apply to any schools from Penn down. I think your regret at that stage will pretty significant.