172 Hoping for Top 14 Forum

[cteammaterial]

172 on my LSAT, graduated with a 3.2 GPA in economics from a mediocre state school, and have three years of sports sales experience as well as six months of oil and gas land acquisition experience... Would love to go to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc... More realistically looking at the University of Texas because I'm in state. Want to gauge the experts here to see what my chances are for the 14 schools in front of UT before I waste money on applications. Specifically looking at applying to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Virginia, Berkeley, Cornell, Georgetown, and Texas for admission in fall 15.

Thanks!

[03152016]

no shot at harvard yale stanford
blanket t14 from ccn down

i'm not understanding your strategy here
like why is cornell on the list but not columbia, nyu, penn
why georgetown and virginia but not duke
etc

[shifty_eyed]

HYS is out.

You will have to decide if CCN at sticker is worth it over UT with instate + big scholarship. If you want to work in Texas, I don't think it is. But if you are made of money, you could ED to one of them.

You have good chances at the lower T14. I would apply to all the schools in the T20-25, and then SMU or UH.

[cteammaterial]

no shot at harvard yale stanford
blanket t14 from ccn down

i'm not understanding your strategy here
like why is cornell on the list but not columbia, nyu, penn
why georgetown and virginia but not duke
etc

I mean, if I stood a chance at getting into Columbia, NYU, or Penn I would consider it... I already considered Yale, Harvard, and Stanford as long shots so I set my sights a little lower on the rankings. Honestly will probably apply to five schools as soon as applications are available, see what happens, and then apply for five more if I don't get into any of the first five.

I've been to Durham and have no interest in spending three years there. I also spent a year in the midwest and don't really have any interest in living in Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, etc.

Just curious, are the top three schools out because of my GPA? If I had scored, say, a 180 on my LSAT would I stand a better chance?

[cteammaterial]

HYS is out.

You will have to decide if CCN at sticker is worth it over UT with instate + big scholarship. If you want to work in Texas, I don't think it is. But if you are made of money, you could ED to one of them.

You have good chances at the lower T14. I would apply to all the schools in the T20-25, and then SMU or UH.

I certainly don't mind working in Texas. Big law in Dallas/Houston pays a lot and it isn't expensive to live in either town. I'm from Dallas, so that is an added bonus. Plus, I'm confident that I'll get a scholarship to Texas and may be able to take out less than $100k in loans. Are there really any benefits to going to Columbia or NYU over Texas with the exception of living in NYC? Is the network you tap into that much better? If I can get into those schools, it is certainly something that I could consider... but cost will weigh heavily.

I don't want to go to law school just to go to law school so honestly I haven't really considered SMU or UH... I guess if I could go to SMU for free I would do it.

[03152016]

no shot at harvard yale stanford
blanket t14 from ccn down

i'm not understanding your strategy here
like why is cornell on the list but not columbia, nyu, penn
why georgetown and virginia but not duke
etc

I mean, if I stood a chance at getting into Columbia, NYU, or Penn I would consider it... I already considered Yale, Harvard, and Stanford as long shots so I set my sights a little lower on the rankings. Honestly will probably apply to five schools as soon as applications are available, see what happens, and then apply for five more if I don't get into any of the first five.

I've been to Durham and have no interest in spending three years there. I also spent a year in the midwest and don't really have any interest in living in Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, etc.

Just curious, are the top three schools out because of my GPA? If I had scored, say, a 180 on my LSAT would I stand a better chance?

nope, you're not getting in
but ccn is possible, as is the rest of the t14 minus boalt
apply to all of them outside of hys, you can and should use an offer from one school, even one you hate, as leverage in negotiating scholarships from another.

[03152016]

Are there really any benefits to going to Columbia or NYU over Texas with the exception of living in NYC?

if you want to work in texas and UT offers you $$$, do it
you're probably not getting much out of cn, and paying sticker ain't pretty

[esther0123]

no shot at harvard yale stanford
blanket t14 from ccn down

i'm not understanding your strategy here
like why is cornell on the list but not columbia, nyu, penn
why georgetown and virginia but not duke
etc

I mean, if I stood a chance at getting into Columbia, NYU, or Penn I would consider it... I already considered Yale, Harvard, and Stanford as long shots so I set my sights a little lower on the rankings. Honestly will probably apply to five schools as soon as applications are available, see what happens, and then apply for five more if I don't get into any of the first five.

I've been to Durham and have no interest in spending three years there. I also spent a year in the midwest and don't really have any interest in living in Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, etc.

Just curious, are the top three schools out because of my GPA? If I had scored, say, a 180 on my LSAT would I stand a better chance?

My two cents are that 3.2 is REALLY low... even with 180 and URM, I'd say it's a long shot.

[jbagelboy]

Unless admissions standards have radically loosened again this year, 3.2 from a regional program w/ 172 won't get you in the door at Chicago or Columbia either. NYU, Penn and UVA are possible, but at sticker, which you shouldn't do. Duke, Michigan and Cornell typically aren't splitter friendly, so really Georgetown and Northwestern are the lower T14s in play here.

UT is possible, also apply to WUSTL.

[cteammaterial]

Are there really any benefits to going to Columbia or NYU over Texas with the exception of living in NYC?

if you want to work in texas and UT offers you $$$, do it
you're probably not getting much out of cn, and paying sticker ain't pretty

Awesome. Thanks for the advice. I'll apply to ten or so schools and try to leverage that into some scholarship money at UT. They also have the early decision program that gives in-state people $10k per year, so I might just shoot for that.

[cteammaterial]

Unless admissions standards have radically loosened again this year, 3.2 from a regional program w/ 172 won't get you in the door at Chicago or Columbia either. NYU, Penn and UVA are possible, but at sticker, which you shouldn't do. Duke, Michigan and Cornell typically aren't splitter friendly, so really Georgetown and Northwestern are the lower T14s in play here.

UT is possible, also apply to WUSTL.

I went to a national, flagship university. It's a top 150 USNWR school. I'm just afraid that law school folks look down on it because it's an ag school in a small state. Economics isn't English or Political Science either... I'll take my 3.2 in a business program that actually means something over someone that majored in something easy to get a high GPA.

Yes, a 3.2 is low... but a 172 is five points above most of the average admitted scores for those schools. Shouldn't those average themselves out? Does my work experience mean nothing?

[onionz]

Unless admissions standards have radically loosened again this year, 3.2 from a regional program w/ 172 won't get you in the door at Chicago or Columbia either. NYU, Penn and UVA are possible, but at sticker, which you shouldn't do. Duke, Michigan and Cornell typically aren't splitter friendly, so really Georgetown and Northwestern are the lower T14s in play here.

UT is possible, also apply to WUSTL.

I went to a national, flagship university. It's a top 150 USNWR school. I'm just afraid that law school folks look down on it because it's an ag school in a small state. Economics isn't English or Political Science either... I'll take my 3.2 in a business program that actually means something over someone that majored in something easy to get a high GPA.

Yes, a 3.2 is low... but a 172 is five points above most of the average admitted scores for those schools. Shouldn't those average themselves out? Does my work experience mean nothing?

How are these even threads?

http://mylsn.info/0v0r5k/

[jbagelboy]

Unless admissions standards have radically loosened again this year, 3.2 from a regional program w/ 172 won't get you in the door at Chicago or Columbia either. NYU, Penn and UVA are possible, but at sticker, which you shouldn't do. Duke, Michigan and Cornell typically aren't splitter friendly, so really Georgetown and Northwestern are the lower T14s in play here.

UT is possible, also apply to WUSTL.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time -- seriously -- but since I'm sure many of your friends, family and casual advisers have spread these misconceptions, we need to do the dirty work of clearing them up. Might be hard to hear, but trust me.

I went to a national, flagship university. It's a top 150 USNWR school. I'm just afraid that law school folks look down on it because it's an ag school in a small state.

No one cares about the us news survey rankings, and neither should you, and no one will "look down" on you -- however, schools like Harvard and Columbia give float to GPA for students coming from similar programs in undergrad, i.e., elite universities and highly selective small private colleges. If you search through LSN, the data reflects that sub-3.5 GPA's from selective colleges have an easier time sneaking in. You don't have this.

Economics isn't English or Political Science either... I'll take my 3.2 in a business program that actually means something over someone that majored in something easy to get a high GPA.

Re: the bolded, it doesn't. Just accept this.

First, Economics is not a challenging major, and is never looked at as such. It's a classic pre-law choice and at my UG and many others, one of the easier routes to high grades. Second, even if you were a chemical engineering major, a 3.6 in English would beat your 3.2 every day, everywhere (not for job apps but for law school apps). Major matters incredibly little relative to overall GPA.

Yes, a 3.2 is low... but a 172 is five points above most of the average admitted scores for those schools. Shouldn't those average themselves out?

There's no "averaging" - you're what we call a 'splitter' on TLS, someone with above 75%ile LSAT and below 25th%ile GPA. This means you stand a moderate to good chance at admission to "splitter-friendly" programs, like the one's I mentioned: Georgetown, Northwestern, UVA, Penn, maybe NYU. The primary way law schools approach admissions today is to look at the two key numbers, LSAT and GPA, and see if you would boost one median or the other. Since you would boost LSAT median and LSAT's are in far higher demand than GPA's, it opens you up for consideration. Then they look to see just how poorly you fall on the other marker, since many of these schools have a vague range of 'floor' below which they will not admit you.

If you look at students admitted to CC with sub-3.4 GPA's, they exist but are overwhelmingly hailing from prestigious colleges with 175+ LSAT's.

The greater lesson here is that in this economy, law school is not justifiable at full cost and you would be forced into sticker/$280K+ in federal loans to attend a school like Virginia or Penn. We highly discourage this, even though these are the best programs you could get into.

Does my work experience mean nothing?

Your work experience does mean 'something', but a couple years in sales and energy real estate are not going to fly you above sub-par numbers. Being able to speak to these positions and what you learned will help you when applying for jobs at OCI and in other venues, but from an admissions standpoint, it's a mild soft at most that keeps you up to the standard level of applicants, but doesn't necessarily exceed. The kind of WE that really boosts an application outside of what the numbers would predict resembles starting a successful well known company or non-profit, playing in the olympics or another international sports league, certain IB and management consulting positions (which require stellar UG grades anyway), Fulbright, Watson, and Rhodes scholarships, ect.

[MT Cicero]

Unless admissions standards have radically loosened again this year, 3.2 from a regional program w/ 172 won't get you in the door at Chicago or Columbia either. NYU, Penn and UVA are possible, but at sticker, which you shouldn't do. Duke, Michigan and Cornell typically aren't splitter friendly, so really Georgetown and Northwestern are the lower T14s in play here.

UT is possible, also apply to WUSTL.

I went to a national, flagship university. It's a top 150 USNWR school. I'm just afraid that law school folks look down on it because it's an ag school in a small state. Economics isn't English or Political Science either... I'll take my 3.2 in a business program that actually means something over someone that majored in something easy to get a high GPA.

Yes, a 3.2 is low... but a 172 is five points above most of the average admitted scores for those schools. Shouldn't those average themselves out? Does my work experience mean nothing?

.

[shifty_eyed]

UT isn't just possible. He should get 20-25k/yr, with in-state at 33k, very doable.

[checkers]

UT isn't just possible. He should get 20-25k/yr, with in-state at 33k, very doable.

UT is likely, but that scholarship seems generous. I have very similar numbers to you and received much less.

OP, I would blanket the T14 from CCN down, even the schools which aren't a great fit for you personally as far as location/facilities/etc go. This decision is one of the biggest of your life, and you might appreciate having more options come next spring, if for no other reason than to play schools off each other for scholarship negotiations. Ask for fee waivers to make this easier.

[shifty_eyed]

UT isn't just possible. He should get 20-25k/yr, with in-state at 33k, very doable.

UT is likely, but that scholarship seems generous. I have very similar numbers to you and received much less.

OP, I would blanket the T14 from CCN down, even the schools which aren't a great fit for you personally as far as location/facilities/etc go. This decision is one of the biggest of your life, and you might appreciate having more options come next spring, if for no other reason than to play schools off each other for scholarship negotiations. Ask for fee waivers to make this easier.

They've given that much before for those numbers, so that should be the goal.

It is unlikely to get more than 20k/yr from any t-14, so I don't see any higher ranked school being worth it unless OP has a trust fund.

[transferror]

OP, I would blanket the T14 from CCN down, even the schools which aren't a great fit for you personally as far as location/facilities/etc go. This decision is one of the biggest of your life, and you might appreciate having more options come next spring, if for no other reason than to play schools off each other for scholarship negotiations. Ask for fee waivers to make this easier.

+1. Even if you don't want to attend NU or UVA, since they are splitter friendly, it's worth applying to leverage the acceptance for more $$ at UT (or wherever else).

[jk148706]

.

[nothingtosee]

[riverwater]

As someone who had a better gpa and lsat than you and got no $ from columbia/nyu, I would say don't even apply. It's not worth the app fee or your time. Focus your energy on writing all optional essays for MVP down.

[sundontshine]

I went to a national, flagship university. It's a top 150 USNWR school. I'm just afraid that law school folks look down on it because it's an ag school in a small state. Economics isn't English or Political Science either... I'll take my 3.2 in a business program that actually means something over someone that majored in something easy to get a high GPA.

1. Economics is not a difficult major.
2. Being at a school on the level of a Mississippi State, Arizona State, George Mason, and Ole Miss isn't exactly something prestigious that makes an admissions committee member at Harvard (or anyone else) say "woah". Even if USNWR undergrad rankings mattered one bit for law school admissions.

Yes, a 3.2 is low... but a 172 is five points above most of the average admitted scores for those schools. Shouldn't those average themselves out? Does my work experience mean nothing?

Getting a 3.2 in undergrad can make adcomms wonder about your ability to succeed in law school. They also really don't care about your undergrad - they care about the GPA they can report to US News. A 3.2 is low, so HYS is out for you.

You're still in a very good spot due to your LSAT, though.