Syracuse Law or SUNY Buffalo Law? May 2014 Forum

[RedGryphon]

Hey guys,

I have been admitted to both Syracuse Law and SUNY Buffalo law. I essentially have to make a decision within the next couple of weeks. Costs aside, which one is best to go to? I know SUNY took a hit in the ranking this year but it is still ranked higher than Syracuse. My goal is to work at a respectable law firm in NYC. However my primary goal is to finish in the top 5 to 10 percent and then transfer to a T14. Please let me know which is a better to school to go to. Syracuse is a private university and I worry that down the road the ranking of Syracuse will be higher than SUNY. Anyways, again, costs aside (scholarships make the costs equal)... SYRACUSE OR BUFFALO?

Thanks,

RedGryphon

[metroidbum]

Hey guys,

I have been admitted to both Syracuse Law and SUNY Buffalo law. I essentially have to make a decision within the next couple of weeks. Costs aside, which one is best to go to? I know SUNY took a hit in the ranking this year but it is still ranked higher than Syracuse. My goal is to work at a respectable law firm in NYC. However my primary goal is to finish in the top 5 to 10 percent and then transfer to a T14. Please let me know which is a better to school to go to. Syracuse is a private university and I worry that down the road the ranking of Syracuse will be higher than SUNY. Anyways, again, costs aside (scholarships make the costs equal)... SYRACUSE OR BUFFALO?

Thanks,

RedGryphon

This belongs in the Choosing section.

To answer properly people are gonna want to know the cost of attendance, your LSAT/GPA numbers, and your regional ties.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/buffalo/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/syracuse/2013/

But if you want "a respectable law firm in NYC", i.e big law, neither one of these places will get you there. You seem to know that, as evidenced by saying you want to transfer to a T14. That requires having a high class rank, which is much harder than retaking the LSAT so that you can just go straight to a T14.

TLDR, you should probably retake and not go to either school. If you must set yourself up for a bad outcome, then go to SUNY Buffalo based on the job numbers.

Oh, and rankings are meaningless and should play no role in your decision making process.

[anyriotgirl]

Don't do it! NYC market is super saturated and it's hard to transfer. Spend a little time looking at other threads on this forum and you'll see the overwhelming consensus is to study hard for the LSAT and go to a solid school with solid money

[03152016]

These are pretty grim options. Don't count on transferring; every 0L thinks they'll be in the top 10%, and 90% of them are wrong. 8 people transferred out of Buffalo last year, 23 out of Syracuse. Since we have no real data on where they landed, if I was being unbelievably generous and assumed that 50% of those students transferred to a T14, you'd have a 2% chance at Buffalo and a 5.9% chance at Syracuse. If your goal is biglaw, you have a 4.7% chance at Buffalo and a 7.4% chance at Syracuse. So in total, using this optimistic set of numbers, the chance of one of your two plans working at Buffalo and Syracuse are roughly 7% and 13%, respectively.

Given the goals you stated in your OP, I believe it would be more financially prudent to go to Vegas and bet on "black". My advice is that you spend the next few months studying for the September LSAT and try again next cycle.

[RedGryphon]

My apologies I didn't know it belonged in the choosing section... @metroidbum - I have already written the LSAT three times... writing again isn't really an option unless I do so a couple years down the road. I have a summer internship in finance (I graduated from Cornell last year), should I just not go to law school all together and try to work for two years and potentially re write for the fourth time down the road and re - apply?? Please advise. It is a big life decision and based on these responses it is making me think twice even about attending law school this September.

[RedGryphon]

These are pretty grim options. Don't count on transferring; every 0L thinks they'll be in the top 10%, and 90% of them are wrong. 8 people transferred out of Buffalo last year, 23 out of Syracuse. Since we have no real data on where they landed, if I was being unbelievably generous and assumed that 50% of those students transferred to a T14, you'd have a 2% chance at Buffalo and a 5.9% chance at Syracuse. If your goal is biglaw, you have a 4.7% chance at Buffalo and a 7.4% chance at Syracuse. So in total, using this optimistic set of numbers, the chance of one of your two plans working at Buffalo and Syracuse are roughly 7% and 13%, respectively.

Given the goals you stated in your OP, I believe it would be more financially prudent to go to Vegas and bet on "black". My advice is that you spend the next few months studying for the September LSAT and try again next cycle.

I have already written the LSAT three times... October 2013, December 2013, and February 2014... what should I do... again I graduated from Cornell undergrad and am working in finance this summer.

[anyriotgirl]

Keep working in finance

[03152016]

My apologies I didn't know it belonged in the choosing section... @metroidbum - I have already written the LSAT three times... writing again isn't really an option unless I do so a couple years down the road. I have a summer internship in finance (I graduated from Cornell last year), should I just not go to law school all together and try to work for two years and potentially re write for the fourth time down the road and re - apply?? Please advise. It is a big life decision and based on these responses it is making me think twice even about attending law school this September.

Worth waiting. No point in rushing into a bad decision. If you're focused on biglaw, having good work experience will be a plus; even if you had a T14 offer now it would be worth considering taking a year or two off.

[RedGryphon]

My apologies I didn't know it belonged in the choosing section... @metroidbum - I have already written the LSAT three times... writing again isn't really an option unless I do so a couple years down the road. I have a summer internship in finance (I graduated from Cornell last year), should I just not go to law school all together and try to work for two years and potentially re write for the fourth time down the road and re - apply?? Please advise. It is a big life decision and based on these responses it is making me think twice even about attending law school this September.

Worth waiting. No point in rushing into a bad decision. If you're focused on biglaw, having good work experience will be a plus; even if you had a T14 offer now it would be worth considering taking a year or two off.

The thing is I have already taken this past year off... and I do not have a job secured for after the summer. It seems likely that even though it's against all odds that I succeed I am going to go to school in September.... so I ask, if you had to choose Syracuse or Buffalo which one would you choose... No other option, all else equal, Syracuse or Buffalo?

[prezidentv8]

[RedGryphon]

^^what is that about?

[prezidentv8]

^^what is that about?

sorry I'm just being an asshole.

you know this is a fairly typical discussion around these parts though, yes?

[03152016]

so I ask, if you had to choose Syracuse or Buffalo which one would you choose... No other option, all else equal, Syracuse or Buffalo?

If the question is 'which one would I choose', the answer is neither. I have the same goals as you (biglaw) and I don't think there are reasonable odds of achieving that goal from either school you're considering.

If you decide to go anyways, I sincerely wish you good luck. There but for the grace of God go I...

[SFrost]

Neither option is 'great' but I don't necessarily agree with the TLS sentiment that no one should ever go. You've taken the LSAT three times, so barring a long wait you've got the score you're going to get. The real question now is you exact motivation for being a lawyer.

Have you completely ruled out other career options? Business school? Economics? Finance? Medicine? Something else all together? If you're set on being a lawyer are you ok working as a PD for under 50k/yr?

The transferring is nonsense. You have absolutely zero way to know if you'll be the lucky student to not only do well in every class your first year, but not get one bad professor or one particularly competitive class. It's a bigger gamble than going to Vegas and slapping 100k on the Roulette wheel.

[victory]

No other option, all else equal, Syracuse or Buffalo?

No other options? I'd switch my career plan. If you're dead set on being a lawyer, do something until one of your LSAT scores expires, and study and retake. Neither Syracuse nor Buffalo will put you in a "successful" position. You'll find the consensus here to be against paying money to a school that doesn't graduate any victims students into the legal profession.

[banjo]

The transferring is nonsense. You have absolutely zero way to know if you'll be the lucky student to not only do well in every class your first year, but not get one bad professor or one particularly competitive class. It's a bigger gamble than going to Vegas and slapping 100k on the Roulette wheel.

I agree with all of this, which is why I think that OP shouldn't go to law school this year.

[resilience99]

These are pretty grim options. Don't count on transferring; every 0L thinks they'll be in the top 10%, and 90% of them are wrong. 8 people transferred out of Buffalo last year, 23 out of Syracuse. Since we have no real data on where they landed, if I was being unbelievably generous and assumed that 50% of those students transferred to a T14, you'd have a 2% chance at Buffalo and a 5.9% chance at Syracuse. If your goal is biglaw, you have a 4.7% chance at Buffalo and a 7.4% chance at Syracuse. So in total, using this optimistic set of numbers, the chance of one of your two plans working at Buffalo and Syracuse are roughly 7% and 13%, respectively.

Given the goals you stated in your OP, I believe it would be more financially prudent to go to Vegas and bet on "black". My advice is that you spend the next few months studying for the September LSAT and try again next cycle.

Where is the site that tells you about the transfer-out numbers?

[Nebby]

I xfer'd out of Buffalo. Most people xfer to the lower T14. You'll need top 5% to xfer to the lower T14 from Buffalo. I know people that xfer'd to GULC, Cornell, and UPenn. All of them were top 5%.

However, I echo everyone's sentiments that you should NEVER go into law school thinking you can transfer. I didn't even know transferring was a thing until a month into my second semester 1L.

[CaveCanem]

Hey guys,

I have been admitted to both Syracuse Law and SUNY Buffalo law. I essentially have to make a decision within the next couple of weeks. Costs aside, which one is best to go to? I know SUNY took a hit in the ranking this year but it is still ranked higher than Syracuse. My goal is to work at a respectable law firm in NYC. However my primary goal is to finish in the top 5 to 10 percent and then transfer to a T14. Please let me know which is a better to school to go to. Syracuse is a private university and I worry that down the road the ranking of Syracuse will be higher than SUNY. Anyways, again, costs aside (scholarships make the costs equal)... SYRACUSE OR BUFFALO?

Thanks,

RedGryphon

As far as transferring goes, I can't speak on that. Since you don't mention NYC, I'll assume you're not dead-set on big law. I do know that Cuse and SUNY Buffalo are very well-represented in the upstate firms. I worked in a large firm in undergrad, and of course its anectodal but my firm's summer associate from one of those schools was hired over a T14 grad. This isn't NYC big law we're talking about. Of course salaries are lower but so are living expenses. There are a couple 60-100 lawyer firms across Upstate NY whose starting salary is just shy of six figures and lots of associates/partners are from those two schools.

[metroidbum]

My apologies I didn't know it belonged in the choosing section... @metroidbum - I have already written the LSAT three times... writing again isn't really an option unless I do so a couple years down the road. I have a summer internship in finance (I graduated from Cornell last year), should I just not go to law school all together and try to work for two years and potentially re write for the fourth time down the road and re - apply?? Please advise. It is a big life decision and based on these responses it is making me think twice even about attending law school this September.

Without knowing your numbers it is hard to say if you could reapply and get better options...as it stands, both of these options are terrible, unless you are fine not working big law, in which case they are merely bad options.

If I were you I would not go to law school. Keep working in finance, and if you still really want to go into law, retake the lsat the next time you are allowed to.

[Baby_Got_Feuerbach]

If your goal is to attend a t14, wait until you have the numbers to be admitted as a 0L.

Also, knowing what (little) I do about these schools, I doubt the costs will be equal. Buffalo is a state school with tuition hovering in the low twenty-thousands (unless you're OOS in which case it's $40k); Syracuse is a private with tuition north of $45,000. Has Syracuse really offered you a half-ride? They're not considered to be very generous (where Buffalo can't afford to be liberal with their scholarships).

If you're dead-set on attending law school next fall (and I realize there are people who, for whatever reason, have this mentality; I am one of them), I suggest Buffalo, simply because their costs will stay low and more grads are placed in JD-required positions.

I lived in Buffalo for a couple years and it's not a bad time.

[cron1834]

Don't go to these schools with these goals. Your odds of being successful in this way in NYC are equivalent to winning the lottery. It's possible you could pull it off, but you shouldn't bet your life on a miracle.

Plus, you have a degree from Cornell and the ability to work in finance for the next couple of years if you hustle. Dude. Those things are going to be huge advantages over some of your classmates for NYC work if you get into a T14 down the road. You could put yourself into a 70% chance of getting your dream job if you're patient and wait for it. As it stands, you're looking at low single digits.

Think about that math for a second. If you sit out a cycle and decide you desperately can't put it off another year, these crappy schools will still take you next year. And the year after that. And the year after that ...

[03152016]

These are pretty grim options. Don't count on transferring; every 0L thinks they'll be in the top 10%, and 90% of them are wrong. 8 people transferred out of Buffalo last year, 23 out of Syracuse. Since we have no real data on where they landed, if I was being unbelievably generous and assumed that 50% of those students transferred to a T14, you'd have a 2% chance at Buffalo and a 5.9% chance at Syracuse. If your goal is biglaw, you have a 4.7% chance at Buffalo and a 7.4% chance at Syracuse. So in total, using this optimistic set of numbers, the chance of one of your two plans working at Buffalo and Syracuse are roughly 7% and 13%, respectively.

Given the goals you stated in your OP, I believe it would be more financially prudent to go to Vegas and bet on "black". My advice is that you spend the next few months studying for the September LSAT and try again next cycle.

Where is the site that tells you about the transfer-out numbers?

509 form; it's an ABA required disclosure and should be available on any law school's website.

[03152016]

Hey guys,

I have been admitted to both Syracuse Law and SUNY Buffalo law. I essentially have to make a decision within the next couple of weeks. Costs aside, which one is best to go to? I know SUNY took a hit in the ranking this year but it is still ranked higher than Syracuse. My goal is to work at a respectable law firm in NYC. However my primary goal is to finish in the top 5 to 10 percent and then transfer to a T14. Please let me know which is a better to school to go to. Syracuse is a private university and I worry that down the road the ranking of Syracuse will be higher than SUNY. Anyways, again, costs aside (scholarships make the costs equal)... SYRACUSE OR BUFFALO?

Thanks,

RedGryphon

As far as transferring goes, I can't speak on that. Since you don't mention NYC, I'll assume you're not dead-set on big law. I do know that Cuse and SUNY Buffalo are very well-represented in the upstate firms. I worked in a large firm in undergrad, and of course its anectodal but my firm's summer associate from one of those schools was hired over a T14 grad. This isn't NYC big law we're talking about. Of course salaries are lower but so are living expenses. There are a couple 60-100 lawyer firms across Upstate NY whose starting salary is just shy of six figures and lots of associates/partners are from those two schools.

He did mention NYC. He said he wanted a "respectable law firm in NYC".

And an upstate firm hiring from a regional school over a T14 doesn't say much; they probably want someone with strong ties to the area who will stick around for a while.

[Crowing]

My apologies I didn't know it belonged in the choosing section... @metroidbum - I have already written the LSAT three times... writing again isn't really an option unless I do so a couple years down the road. I have a summer internship in finance (I graduated from Cornell last year), should I just not go to law school all together and try to work for two years and potentially re write for the fourth time down the road and re - apply?? Please advise. It is a big life decision and based on these responses it is making me think twice even about attending law school this September.

Absolutely do this. Law school isn't going anywhere, and getting work experience can only help you.