Need Some Input - Best Option to get into HYS Forum

[h3jk5h]

The last time I posted on here was three and a half years ago, when I was in grade 12, asking for advice on the LSAT. The link below was my post: (I had a few chuckles when I looked back at this, and wow...it's been a while)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6&t=129524

I listened to you all and put off the LSAT prep, and now it's crunch time. My goal has not changed since then - to get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford.

Here are some of things that I've achieved upon completion of 3 years of undergrad:
GPA: 4.0
Extra-curricular activities: Founder of a campus club, President of another campus club
Work Experience: Taught English to middle school students for roughly 4 months in a summer camp

The bottom line is: my GPA and softs are okay, the LSAT is the main thing that I ought to focus on.

I bought a lot of prep books (PowerScore, Manhattan, LSAT Trainer, bunch of prep tests), and will possibly buy more in the future. Initially I was planning to take the LSAT in September so that there would be 4-5 months for me to study, but my diagnostic was an abysmal 152 and I realized that I have to put in an insane amount of work and dedication to pull up my score in the 170s range. I started putting in 5-6 hours of study everyday since last week, and it's not an exaggeration for me to say that my life has now centered around the LSAT.

Despite this, I have a crippling fear that doing this might not be sufficient to achieve my targeted score range (170+) by the end of September (I fear that I just don't have enough talent to score that high no matter how hard I try), to the point where I'm now considering to take it in December to give me 2 more months of study. But I'm also aware that I might not be as focused from September to December for prep since I'll be in school again.

So my question is: should I take the LSAT only when I'm completely sure that I would get my targeted score range or should I just take it in October?

Thanks in advance

[MtnGinger]

I know you want a magic answer but there just isn't one. I'm sure with great stats like that you can achieve a 170+ but it will require time. Most people get in the 150s on diagnostics and it means nothing. If you put in the work, go through the basics like the powerscore bibles in about a month or two then just start drilling and PTing you can achieve this by October. This is on you only you know how much you can study and motivate yourself but you will be surprised at how quickly that score will rise after going through the bibles and other books. I am 3 months in taking in june and my diagnostic was 155 and on my last 2 PTs I hit 172 and 176 so it is doable.Don't give up you've worked so hard!

[transferror]

I know you want a magic answer but there just isn't one. I'm sure with great stats like that you can achieve a 170+ but it will require time. Most people get in the 150s on diagnostics and it means nothing. If you put in the work, go through the basics like the powerscore bibles in about a month or two then just start drilling and PTing you can achieve this by October. This is on you only you know how much you can study and motivate yourself but you will be surprised at how quickly that score will rise after going through the bibles and other books. I am 3 months in taking in june and my diagnostic was 155 and on my last 2 PTs I hit 172 and 176 so it is doable.Don't give up you've worked so hard!

Don't take it until you are PTing at 170+. If that's October, go ahead. Otherwise, wait it out. With a 4.0 you should be able to find some sort of job to hold you over for a year if you have to sit out a cycle to keep studying. Whatever you do, don't settle.

[malleus discentium]

So my question is: should I take the LSAT only when I'm completely sure that I would get my targeted score range or should I just take it in October?

Thanks in advance

Yes, you should only take it when you're confident that you will get your targeted score range. You should shoot for that being October, though. As you approach it you can assess whether you've met that goal or not and recalibrate as necessary. But don't shoot for December just because right now you don't think you'll get there. The 4 or so months between now and then is enough if you study properly.

[phillywc]

I'd take in September. I know you want to go right away (and have for what, 5-6 years now?), but if you don't score where you want, you could retake and possibly take a year off. You are very young, it would not be the end of the world.

[victory]

From your old thread:

Go to college, get your 3.95, then get back to us in 3 years.

Three years later and you're coming back here with a 4.0...OP delivered.

You're going to have to adjust depending on how you're scoring when it's closer to test day. Don't take it if you're not PT'ing 170+. Live and breath this test for the next few months.

[midwest17]

Be prepared to not go directly to law school. Take the test only when you're ready. Besides, if one summer job is your only work experience, taking time off and working can only help.

[Nebby]

Take September/October. If not satisfied. Retake in December.

[midwest17]

Take September/October. If not satisfied. Retake in December.

Don't do this unless you're PTing in your target range. You won't suddenly do a whole lot better the day of the test. And while retakes generally won't hurt you, they can and it's nice to not be in the situation where you're worrying about it.

You have a while before you need to decide whether you're taking September. Keep studying.

[iamgeorgebush]

this summer, put in the work. 20/21 point score increases (i.e., what you need to get HYS) are attainable for people who put in the work. plenty of people who score in the 170s start out in the low 150s. it won't be a walk in the park to get there, but if you log a few hours of prep a day from now till september (and prep in the right way) you should be able to get there.

[h3jk5h]

Thanks for the replies, everyone

this summer, put in the work. 20/21 point score increases (i.e., what you need to get HYS) are attainable for people who put in the work. plenty of people who score in the 170s start out in the low 150s. it won't be a walk in the park to get there, but if you log a few hours of prep a day from now till september (and prep in the right way) you should be able to get there.

Here is my long-term plan (to prep the "right" way):

1) Go through the PowerScore, Manhattan, and LSAT Trainer prep books
2) Drill (I bought the Cambridge package: prep tests 1-38, arranged by question types and by difficulty, for LR, LG, and RC)
3) Do prep tests 38-71, under strict time constraints

Do you think this is a good strategy?

For the LG section, I'm not sure whether I should look into the 7sage videos - if I were to read too many LG prep books, perhaps I would be confused as to which one I should use?

[Pneumonia]

Thanks for the replies, everyone

this summer, put in the work. 20/21 point score increases (i.e., what you need to get HYS) are attainable for people who put in the work. plenty of people who score in the 170s start out in the low 150s. it won't be a walk in the park to get there, but if you log a few hours of prep a day from now till september (and prep in the right way) you should be able to get there.

Here is my long-term plan (to prep the "right" way):

1) Go through the PowerScore, Manhattan, and LSAT Trainer prep books
2) Drill (I bought the Cambridge package: prep tests 1-38, arranged by question types and by difficulty, for LR, LG, and RC)
3) Do prep tests 38-71, under strict time constraints

Do you think this is a good strategy?

For the LG section, I'm not sure whether I should look into the 7sage videos - if I were to read too many LG prep books, perhaps I would be confused as to which one I should use?

this will definitely get you where you need to be. If you do all of it though it might end up taking more time than you think. Also, be aware that there is at least 90% overlap between the various guides (the good ones at least, which the ones you mention are), so you'll find a bunch of the stuff pretty redundant if you read all 7 (3xPS, 3xMH, 1xTrainer).

Your plan is basically the TLS go-to plan though, and it will get you where you want to be.

7 Sage videos are helpful but are by no means necessary. They're good for games that you either don't understand or don't understand how to do quickly. Again though, the prep books aren't all that different from each other so you don't need to worry about which one to "use." I read/browsed 2 or 3 for LG as well and ended up employing my own "hybrid" method on the PT's which I think is what most people do.

[malleus discentium]

Thanks for the replies, everyone

this summer, put in the work. 20/21 point score increases (i.e., what you need to get HYS) are attainable for people who put in the work. plenty of people who score in the 170s start out in the low 150s. it won't be a walk in the park to get there, but if you log a few hours of prep a day from now till september (and prep in the right way) you should be able to get there.

Here is my long-term plan (to prep the "right" way):

1) Go through the PowerScore, Manhattan, and LSAT Trainer prep books
2) Drill (I bought the Cambridge package: prep tests 1-38, arranged by question types and by difficulty, for LR, LG, and RC)
3) Do prep tests 38-71, under strict time constraints

Do you think this is a good strategy?

For the LG section, I'm not sure whether I should look into the 7sage videos - if I were to read too many LG prep books, perhaps I would be confused as to which one I should use?

this will definitely get you where you need to be. If you do all of it though it might end up taking more time than you think. Also, be aware that there is at least 90% overlap between the various guides (the good ones at least, which the ones you mention are), so you'll find a bunch of the stuff pretty redundant if you read all 7 (3xPS, 3xMH, 1xTrainer).

Your plan is basically the TLS go-to plan though, and it will get you where you want to be.

7 Sage videos are helpful but are by no means necessary. They're good for games that you either don't understand or don't understand how to do quickly. Again though, the prep books aren't all that different from each other so you don't need to worry about which one to "use." I read/browsed 2 or 3 for LG as well and ended up employing my own "hybrid" method on the PT's which I think is what most people do.

FWIW I used PS for LG and found it helpful. But their methods aren't perfect and watching 7Sage videos helps you identify where PS methods are flabby or unnecessary. I think starting with PS as a base to learn how to do the games and going through 7Sage as you drill to perfect your technique is the ideal plan.

You don't need Powerscore AND Manhattan AND the Trainer. Pick one and if you really don't respond to its teaching style you can get another. But purchasing all three to start with is overkill.

You probably don't need to take so many full, timed PTs. The point of taking them that way is to get your endurance and timing down and you don't need more than 20 or so to do that. Drilling is probably a better use of the tests up to 50.

[jkhalfa]

Extra-curricular activities: Founder of a campus club, President of another campus club
Work Experience: Taught English to middle school students for roughly 4 months in a summer camp

The bottom line is: my ... softs are okay

Is this true?

I'm also a Harvard-hopeful, and I'm confident I'll have median numbers, but I'm very worried about softs. I was under the impression you'd need like a 177+/4.1+ to get into H with softs like that.

[spleenworship]

1. To the above poster - I've heard softs don't matter a lot for H. Maybe somebody who has gone trough a cycle more recently can correct me.

2. To the OP - see how you are PTing in August... Then decide. Don't freak out now, it distracts from studying. Study now, think about nothing else, and your score will go up. If you are still worried in August, get back to us then with your PT scores and concerns and we'll help you out. Also, use the LSAT prep and LSAT support threads on this forum in the meantime as you find you need to.

[Elston Gunn]

Extra-curricular activities: Founder of a campus club, President of another campus club
Work Experience: Taught English to middle school students for roughly 4 months in a summer camp

The bottom line is: my ... softs are okay

Is this true?

I'm also a Harvard-hopeful, and I'm confident I'll have median numbers, but I'm very worried about softs. I was under the impression you'd need like a 177+/4.1+ to get into H with softs like that.

Think about Harvard's medians, which are crazy high, and their class size, which is huge. It's just not possible to do both and require good softs.

I'm not sure why you're specifically a Harvard hopeful--rather than a YS or CCN w/$$$ hopeful--though.

[jkhalfa]

I'm not sure why you're specifically a Harvard hopeful--rather than a YS or CCN w/$$$ hopeful--though.

YS seem out of the question because I do have weak softs, and Harvard has just always been my dream school. It's stupid, but I'm a first gen college student from a low-income area, so for me the Harvard name has always had like a magical aura or something. But obviously I'd love CCN with $. Will that happen? I don't know. I'm a rising junior with a 4.22 GPA, 164 diagnostic score, and softs a little better than OP's, so maybe.

[Elston Gunn]

I'm not sure why you're specifically a Harvard hopeful--rather than a YS or CCN w/$$$ hopeful--though.

YS seem out of the question because I do have weak softs, and Harvard has just always been my dream school. It's stupid, but I'm a first gen college student from a low-income area, so for me the Harvard name has always had like a magical aura or something. But obviously I'd love CCN with $. Will that happen? I don't know. I'm a rising junior with a 4.22 GPA, 164 diagnostic score, and softs a little better than OP's, so maybe.

Don't take yourself out of the game at YS. I probably had worse softs than you, if you're talking about what's on your resume. People forget that recommendations are a big part of "softs" at the rare number of schools that actually care. Nail the LSAT, write a compelling PS and get three good recs from people who actually know you well, and you'll have an excellent shot at every school, and possibly full-ride scholarships within the T14.

[drawstring]

Extra-curricular activities: Founder of a campus club, President of another campus club
Work Experience: Taught English to middle school students for roughly 4 months in a summer camp

The bottom line is: my ... softs are okay

Is this true?

I'm also a Harvard-hopeful, and I'm confident I'll have median numbers, but I'm very worried about softs. I was under the impression you'd need like a 177+/4.1+ to get into H with softs like that.

Where did you get that impression?

Softs are more important at H than a lot of people suggest--I'm at/above both medians and am on the waitlist, there are several others like me, and multiple applicants at/above the medians were rejected this cycle, including a 3.9/180. There have also been statements by the dean of the law school and those in admissions suggesting that work experience is important and increasingly applicants with WE are being favored.

All that said though, it seems like more often than not applicants with median-ish or higher numbers get in. As long as your softs aren't terrible you should be in a good position if you're at the medians or better. I also think some cases like mine may have a degree of arbitrariness to them, in that they only want so many K-JDs and to that end will accept some but not others even though they are highly similar applicants.

[jkhalfa]

I got that impression from TLS as well as just random prelaw people (who admittedly tend to overestimate the value of softs).

I'm probably going to be a KJD too, so that makes me worry more.

Even though H is my dream school, I'd be elated by a big scholly at a lower T14, but again, I've heard you need great softs to get the big scholarships, even if you're way over their 75ths. Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

[Pneumonia]

With your numbers you don't need great softs for any of the things you're talking about.

What you need is to demonstrate that, even though you are a KJD, you are a competent adult capable of acting as such in a professional setting. There is nothing inherently wrong with the KJD status, its just that compared to those with post-grad work experience KJD's disproportionately lack the above characteristics.

Don't worry about not having worked for MBB or whatever; your retail experience is more valuable than you're giving it credit for. Your numbers, assuming you get the 173+ that you are surely capable of and should surely be trying for, are sufficient provided you don't disqualify yourself by displaying immature or unprofessional attributes in your PS and/or interview.

Lack of "real life" experience is perhaps the number 1 inhibiting factor in the rejection of KJD's. If you graduate UG with the same attitude and life skills that the typical work force candidate has then you don't need to worry about not having "softs."

Elston Gunn's point holds true as well. Clearly your intellectual competency speaks for itself so you should try to steer your recommenders towards writing about your maturity etc without leaving out the obligatory academic references. Good luck.

[crazycanuck]

The last time I posted on here was three and a half years ago, when I was in grade 12, asking for advice on the LSAT. The link below was my post: (I had a few chuckles when I looked back at this, and wow...it's been a while)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6&t=129524

I listened to you all and put off the LSAT prep, and now it's crunch time. My goal has not changed since then - to get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford.

Here are some of things that I've achieved upon completion of 3 years of undergrad:
GPA: 4.0
Extra-curricular activities: Founder of a campus club, President of another campus club
Work Experience: Taught English to middle school students for roughly 4 months in a summer camp

The bottom line is: my GPA and softs are okay, the LSAT is the main thing that I ought to focus on.

I bought a lot of prep books (PowerScore, Manhattan, LSAT Trainer, bunch of prep tests), and will possibly buy more in the future. Initially I was planning to take the LSAT in September so that there would be 4-5 months for me to study, but my diagnostic was an abysmal 152 and I realized that I have to put in an insane amount of work and dedication to pull up my score in the 170s range. I started putting in 5-6 hours of study everyday since last week, and it's not an exaggeration for me to say that my life has now centered around the LSAT.

Despite this, I have a crippling fear that doing this might not be sufficient to achieve my targeted score range (170+) by the end of September (I fear that I just don't have enough talent to score that high no matter how hard I try), to the point where I'm now considering to take it in December to give me 2 more months of study. But I'm also aware that I might not be as focused from September to December for prep since I'll be in school again.

So my question is: should I take the LSAT only when I'm completely sure that I would get my targeted score range or should I just take it in October?

Thanks in advance

My first diagnostic was a stellar 149. I ended up getting 176, so don't worry, it's doable!

Don't study 5-6 hours a day. You'll burn out. There's lot of good info on here about how to do it properly. I did the LSAT in 2009 so it was a long time ago but if you want to talk PM me.

Also I think in the other thread you mentioned you were canadian? There's other considerations that you should make as a canadian. ie: Financing law school and getting a job afterward. From what I have heard from friends who are lawyers, HYS doesn't really help much in Canada.