Scholarship Determination Forum

[bnssweeney]

Hey all, quick question (because I can't control my question asking lately).

When law schools determine scholarships, do they just consider your GPA/LSAT or do they take your softs into consideration as well? For example, would a very minor C&F problem keep you from getting a scholarship? Do people with no post-grad WE get preference for a scholarship over a K-JD?

[monsterman]

Someone else can probably speak more on this as I'm an 0L, but I assume softs matter even less in scholarship awards than they do during the admissions process. It's my understanding that scholarships are awarded to lure in the students who have the numbers they want. If a minor C&F issue got you admitted, it's not going to impact scholarships. I had a minor and I didn't have any problems--as in my cycle was completely average without huge surprises.

[jkhalfa]

Bumping because I'm also wondering about this. Seems like for UG the full schollies tend to go to special snowflakes and not just people with top stats, and I'm really hoping law school is the opposite.

[cotiger]

To get T14 big monies (ie full-schollys) ya gotta have softs.

[Pneumonia]

cotiger's point notwithstanding, no, it's generally not like UG; number are determinative.

[jkhalfa]

Well now we have two conflicting answers. What kind of softs do we "gotta have"?
Or is it just numbers?

TLS is usually pretty helpful but there doesn't seem to be much consensus here about softs except that GPA and LSAT are more important.

[cotiger]

Softs mean you can present yourself as an interesting, engaged person who is likely to be successful in whatever they end up doing. There's certainly no checklist.

Check out these two 176/3.8x applicants from last cycle:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/sinfiery (only accepted at 3 of the T14, ended up with $75k at NYU)
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/hookem89 (ended up only being offered $40k from CLS, $62k from NYU, and took a $45k offer from UChi)

Compare that with these two applicants with similar numbers (both K-JDs), both of which were offered full rides to Columbia and NYU and were accepted at Yale.
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/carboncopyx
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bbsg

If you're just wondering whether you'll get $10k/yr vs $20k/yr, though, then yeah it's pretty much just numbers driven.

[jkhalfa]

I'm not sure what you can really infer from that data. The first guy went to a very low-ranked school, never did more than seasonal work (or else couldn't hold a job for more than 4 months at a time), admits to not doing optional essays or tailoring his applications, and doesn't seem to have a very good command of English. So one guy with good numbers but an awful application didn't get big money... that's not too surprising (thought $75k at NYU is still a great deal in my opinion). The other bad example you gave doesn't describe his softs, so who knows what happened there. And that's just 2 examples.

For your good examples, the one is from Yale, so we'll just call that an outlier that doesn't apply to us plebs. The other just says "strong" softs, so again who knows what that means or what effect they had on his cycle.

[mu13ski]

Was there ever a time when people did clubs, volunteering, or student government because they actually enjoyed it and not just to add it to their resumes?

Yes. Are you suggesting there is not a single club or activity at your college that you would enjoy participating in? If so, what school do you go to?

[jkhalfa]

I actually am in a couple clubs, and because I enjoy them. And I do other stuff (several years of part-time work experience, double major, will probably try to get some research stuff or department prizes, etc.). But does that mean I have good softs? I don't think many on TLS would say so.

[cotiger]

All in all, I hate the idea of doing resume fluff. Was there ever a time when people did clubs, volunteering, or student government because they actually enjoyed it and not just to add it to their resumes?

Resume fluff is not the same thing as strong softs. That's what I was talking about when I said there wasn't a checklist. Accumulating random shit to put on your resume does not impress anyone, and you can be sure that adcomms have seen enough apps to know when someone is full of it. Your narrative about who you are and where you're going is what is important, softs-wise. All your resume points, LORs, WE, etc are merely supportive evidence for that presentation.

[cotiger]

To be completely honest, your attitude towards the "softs" part of your application makes me feel like you could really use some time in the outside world to gain some life experience/perspective before going back to school. Granted, I think all KJDs should do this, but I'm getting the vibe that you might benefit even more than most.

[jkhalfa]

I'm just going to go with the other guy's answer (that numbers are all that matter as long as you seem like a normal person). That's the conventional wisdom here, and I think my softs will be okay. Nothing earth-shattering, but what are you gonna do?

What you're saying isn't really useful at all, since you just redefined the meaningless term "strong softs" with the equally meaningless "compelling life narrative" and then turned condescending when I called you on it.

TLS is to help law school applicants; if you can't contribute anything meaningful, don't waste our time.

[koalacity]

I'm just going to go with the other guy's answer (that numbers are all that matter as long as you seem like a normal person).

What you're saying isn't really useful at all, since you just redefined the meaningless term "strong softs" with the equally meaningless "compelling life narrative" and then turned condescending when I called you on it.

TLS is to help law school applicants; if you can't contribute anything meaningful, don't waste our time.

cotiger is one of the most helpful posters on TLS (especially considering that he's a mere 0L). Don't be combative.

Numbers aren't wholly determinative when it comes to big $$$$ in the T14, especially upper T14. Softs, strength of UG, and applying early all have a huge impact. My numbers are above 75ths at HYS, and I have no full rides (I have average to slightly below average softs and 2 years of post-grad WE). PM me if you would like more details.

[bnssweeney]

Maybe my question was misleading. But from what most of you are saying, it seems like GPA/LSAT is the main aspect that adcomms use to give scholly money (like 10k/yr, 25k/yr, etc.).

Didn't mean for this to turn into a softs debate.

[PotenC]

"Compelling life narrative" sounds wishy-washy but it really isn't. I take it as being synonymous with framing elements in your resume/PS so that they make sense and aid in showing that you are a capable person. Barring the few objectively impressive softs in the world, I'm inclined to believe that the overall presentation of your application really does make a difference.

I'm the twin to sinfiery, mentioned above, in almost all senses of the word, but our cycles have turned out markedly different. We have almost identical stats, as well as softs. We even attended similarly-ranked undergrads. I have received more financial aid than him, despite applying later in the cycle.

--ImageRemoved--

[jkhalfa]

I take it as being synonymous with framing elements in your resume/PS so that they make sense and aid in showing that you are a capable person. Barring the few objectively impressive softs in the world, I'm inclined to believe that the overall presentation of your application really does make a difference.

I agree with that. It seems that softs are really about 1) doing something, like *anything*, and 2) spinning it so you sound ambitious, capable, etc. That's what every softs discussion boils down to, which is kinda unfortunate because it's something we all basically know already.

[kershka]

"Compelling life narrative" sounds wishy-washy but it really isn't. I take it as being synonymous with framing elements in your resume/PS so that they make sense and aid in showing that you are a capable person. Barring the few objectively impressive softs in the world, I'm inclined to believe that the overall presentation of your application really does make a difference.

This. Softs can definitely matter but I think it is less that they are incredibly impressive (i.e. olympic gold medalist, nobel prize, etc) and more that they are cohesive. Obviously I can only base this on my own experiences, but I have had a pretty good cycle money-wise and I'm the most typical KJD you will ever meet. I took my meager softs, however, and I tied them through my entire application as a cohesive narrative.

Also, merit-based scholarships are designed to convince people to attend schools they might otherwise not consider and are therefore partially based on how likely they think you are to take the money and attend their school. If a school assumes that you won't attend their school, even with a full ride, then they might not offer you anything. That's why people will sometimes advise writing compelling "Why X" statements, particularly if you can tie your softs into that essay.

[JazzieShizzle]

"Compelling life narrative" sounds wishy-washy but it really isn't. I take it as being synonymous with framing elements in your resume/PS so that they make sense and aid in showing that you are a capable person. Barring the few objectively impressive softs in the world, I'm inclined to believe that the overall presentation of your application really does make a difference.

This. Softs can definitely matter but I think it is less that they are incredibly impressive (i.e. olympic gold medalist, nobel prize, etc) and more that they are cohesive. Obviously I can only base this on my own experiences, but I have had a pretty good cycle money-wise and I'm the most typical KJD you will ever meet. I took my meager softs, however, and I tied them through my entire application as a cohesive narrative.

Also, merit-based scholarships are designed to convince people to attend schools they might otherwise not consider and are therefore partially based on how likely they think you are to take the money and attend their school. If a school assumes that you won't attend their school, even with a full ride, then they might not offer you anything. That's why people will sometimes advise writing compelling "Why X" statements, particularly if you can tie your softs into that essay.

+1 to all of the above.

Softs seemed to have influenced some of my scholarship offers as well. I'm a non-KJD with decent softs, but nothing incredible. I also sent in a complete package that weaved my past experiences into my future goals and specified how each specific school would enhance my success.

I'm sure my acceptances were based soled on my numbers, but I do think my softs bumped up some of my scholarships offers. Most schools offered me exactly what they offered everyone else with my numbers, but a couple gave me at least a little bit more.

[drawstring]

So, any tips for tying an application into a compelling narrative when your experiences aren't really cohesive or obviously linked in some way?

[PotenC]

So, any tips for tying an application into a compelling narrative when your experiences aren't really cohesive or obviously linked in some way?

draw, I know the popular TLS sentiment is that you shouldn't spend money on those "law school admissions" books, but the updated Ivey Guide really helped me flesh out the subjective aspects of my app. It does rehash a lot of information stated on TLS, but I found Anna Ivey's delineations of "professional" and "personal" statements to be pretty helpful. There does not seem to be a consensus on TLS with regards to the extent to which "why law" needs to be addressed in a PS, so at the very least it was reassuring to get one authoritative opinion on the matter, especially as a K-JD with minimal exposure to law. Plus, some of the sample essay styles meshed well enough with my own writing style, and I drew a fair bit of inspiration from them.

The resume section was also really helpful, especially in terms of the general format it recommended.

If anything, I liked the fact that I had all the necessary information available to me in one place, presented in a cogent manner. Worth the ~$10 in my opinion.

Aside from that, I invited a few friends over for a few beers on a weeknight and tricked them into reading my PS/DS/resume, just to get that second opinion.

[drawstring]

Thanks for that PC!

On a related note, if you want to feel like you've accomplished nothing ask a Yale admit what their softs are

[Pneumonia]

+1 on the Ivey guide, its really great.

[cotiger]

So, any tips for tying an application into a compelling narrative when your experiences aren't really cohesive or obviously linked in some way?

I don't know that it's terribly complicated. I think people should sit down and ask themselves three major questions:

1. Why do I want to go to law school? (be honest with yourself!)
2. Who am I, and what do I bring to the table?
3. What experiences have shaped me into the person I am today?

If you can answer those three questions well, a common thread should reveal itself. If it doesn't, then that's an indication that your reason for wanting to go to law school is probably fairly muddled and that you might be best served by gaining some life experience.

As for OP's feeling that developing a strong personal narrative is frustratingly wishy-washy ("meaningless," I believe was the term) and that softs are implicitly the BS portion of the app consisting of a list impressive-sounding stuff, this is why I recommended that OP might need some time before law school. One of the most important skills you can develop is the ability to present who you are as a person. Experience certainly counts, but any business in any industry is fundamentally hiring people, not resumes.

Those kind of "softs" come into play over and over. For example:

As a general rule, people overestimate how much grades matter because they over-estimate the degree to which students will nail the soft parts of the job search (applying aggressively, interviewing well, etc). They think that if a school places 65% big law + clerkships, the "cut off" must be around top 70%. In reality, it's more like top 80-90%.

And once you're finally out of school, self-presentation skills only grow in importance.

[SFrost]