Anyone noticed the weird K-JD underperformance trend? Forum

[hcrimson2014]

It seems that compared to last year, there is an unusually large amount of posts about K-JD candidates contemplating re-applying because they have significantly underperformed their numbers even with schools like CCN that are not known to practice YP. I even read somewhere that Columbia held someone with 180/4.1+ credentials. Anyone has any theory as to what's happening to the K-JD applicants, especially when application is declining for most schools which should incentivize admissions to overlook the lack of experience in order to boost their numbers, or is this just an expected annual fluctuation that does not translate into any future trend with regards to law school applications?

[drawstring]

I've noticed it

I think someone claimed that Spivey said being a K-JD would be more of a detriment this cycle. Maybe we can get his take on this.....

[a.sleepyhead]

I think the law school admissions process is moving a little more towards the b-school process, where it's TCR to work for a couple years, at least, before applying. I think adcomms are probably being pushed in that direction, and the admitted classes 10 years from now will look pretty different in composition.

As a K-JD applicant, I really don't like this.

[koalacity]

The Columbia hold you're referencing wasn't K-JD, but Columbia's been YPing like crazy this cycle.

I do think having post-grad WE is becoming increasingly important to schools, and they probably also prefer candidates who are slightly older and who have had time to try a different career (i.e. are less likely to just be going to law school as a default option/in lieu of finding a post-grad job).

[haus]

From what I have seen posted, I am surprised that some of the numbers that have not found the type of offers one would expect.

Personally I am nearing the other end of the spectrum (20+ years of combined military and work experience), so far I am still pending at all of the places where I have applied. Not sure what to make of it yet.

[hawkeye10]

Spivey talks a little about it here:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/a-look ... ons-cycle/

[ler2017]

It seems that compared to last year, there is an unusually large amount of posts about K-JD candidates contemplating re-applying because they have significantly underperformed their numbers even with schools like CCN that are not known to practice YP. I even read somewhere that Columbia held someone with 180/4.1+ credentials. Anyone has any theory as to what's happening to the K-JD applicants, especially when application is declining for most schools which should incentivize admissions to overlook the lack of experience in order to boost their numbers, or is this just an expected annual fluctuation that does not translate into any future trend with regards to law school applications?

If I had to venture a guess I'd say it probably has to do with post-law school employment statistics. When I interviewed with a GULC alum she had worked for about 5-6 years after undergrad before going to law school, and she told me a lot of K-JD's graduate from law school with the technical knowledge they need but have no idea what to do in the real world of working because they've never had a job before. I would suspect that since schools publish their employment statistics, and prospective students (should, at least) look to those when evaluating a law school, the school would rather bring in students who have proven employability in the hopes that these students will have an increased chance of finding a job after law school.

That's just a guess though. I imagine that summer internships or part-time work while in school (even if not in the legal field) would be even more important for a K-JD student to have on their resume now, not just to demonstrate that they're "well rounded" but to prove that they can indeed get and hold a job.

[alansadler]

Is there any data to back this up? Or is it all ancedotal? Just curious, since I'll be applying next cycle as a K-JD (though I do have about 6 years of internships/part time work).

[Kimikho]

Is there any data to back this up? Or is it all ancedotal? Just curious, since I'll be applying next cycle as a K-JD (though I do have about 6 years of internships/part time work).

Don't do it .

It's hard to get the data to back it up, but here is the KJD thread, if we want to bump it up to compile results: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=224275

One thing we came to conclude in there was that your KJD status might not matter--it is the quality of your softs. Sure, compared to other KJDs I probably have average softs, but if I had applied with two years of work experience, I would have had those average softs, plus two years of WE. Also, WE is more varied. Even someone with two years of retail experience--that's two years of work experience that is really different from someone else who worked as a consultant, but it still shows that this person can wake up, go to work, etc. Plus that kid can talk about her experiences in retail, which are going to be different and add some amount of diversity to the class. On the other hand, what can I offer? Wooooo student gov and some cool internships. Which practically every applicant has. Sure, I've worked an 8-6 internship, but they have no proof that when I finished that internship, I wasn't about to flame out after three months of full time work.

Basically, I think schools are more looking at the quality of your softs and your ability to handle working following graduation. The fact is, most KJDs have shitty softs in comparison to those working because they lack that additional work experience, and when they do have full-time work experience, it is usually temporary.

Also, data point: I have had a 100% average cycle.

[Attax]

Some may disagree with me, but as a K-JD who is overperforming this cycle I can't complain. I'd echo the sentiments of scoobers though. I think I don't have above average softs, but just highly unique ones that gives me something different from most KJDs in the application process. If I were redoing my cycle, I'd take time off, but that just isn't a current option for me.

If I weren't in my position, I'd love to take time off (I have a unique financial situation where I need to finish before 25 to receive it all). I think it would expand my knowledge of how the real world functions as well as greater networking opportunities. Overall, most KJDs, and possibly myself included, may think we have good/unique softs but they're really quite generic. The WE gives something more to grasp onto about the likelihood of you being a successful employee.

[AlwaysPlayTheFox]

Is there any data to back this up? Or is it all ancedotal? Just curious, since I'll be applying next cycle as a K-JD (though I do have about 6 years of internships/part time work).

Dont worry. I, like many other K-JD, have actually outperformed my numbers. Just make sure you have a narrative that makes sense. KJD should not be pitching themselves as the "hardest working X" or "most experienced in Y". Clean up your app around the edges and you will be fine.

[Mack.Hambleton]

I just got that 160k dill pickle scholly at UVA, so I'm feeling better about my cycle, but I would definitely echo this sentiment.

I think my softs might even be considered above average (I thought my LGBT DS was pretty good, and the UVA adcomm talked a lot about it), but getting dinged at H without even a JS1 (on mylsn, people with my stats recently were accepted like 80%+ of the time) made me really think about what the negative factors could be about my app, and K-JD is one of the biggest things.

The other thing is applying late, so I think applying late + KJD seems like the big thing to avoid (at least based on this cycle).

[lawschool22]

I think it has less to do with schools preferring non-KJDs for intrinsic reasons, and more about employment statistics. It's not a stretch to think that people with post-undergrad work experience are more desirable from a hiring standpoint. Now that employment statistics are more visible, and they are making up a component of the USNWR rankings, it would stand to reason that schools would be interested in accepting applicants who may have a better shot at employment. They view work experience as one factor that contributes to this.

I also think this explains why we are seeing more interviews, specifically more in-person and skype interviews. Schools want to make sure you will do okay at OCI, and thus land a job, and this is another way of improving those odds.

[iliketurtles123]

Take this however you want but MOST people in my class (CCN) are NOT K-JD. I think only about 15-20% of the class are K-JD and even those who are have pretty strong softs. My number might be off since it's based on who I know in the class. However, based on my observations in smaller group events (ie: professor luncheons), the number seems consistent: 1 or 2 out of 10 people are K-JD. And even if my number is off, it's not off by much.

Hence, it seems like most people in my class consisted of applicants who had very little softs but had WE, or K-JD's who had great softs.

It seems like most people in my class worked at least one year. Sure it's only one year but the difference between working 1 year versus K-JD is, IMO, bigger than working 1 year v. 3+ years. I think schools take the same stance.

Also, my numbers did pretty well last cycle. I had virtually no softs except I had work experience (and I think I had a great essay about applying my WE to LS)

Of course this is all anecdotal.
However, I strongly believe softs are becoming increasingly important. At OCI, WE makes a difference. I'm pretty sure schools know this and right now the competition is tough. If I were an adcomm who wants to increase my employment stats, I would definitely choose someone with WE over most other softs.

[banjo]

Take this however you want but MOST people in my class (CCN) are NOT K-JD. I think only about 15-20% of the class are K-JD and even those who are have pretty strong softs.

Many schools post stats on how many students are K-JD. For example:

It's 28% at Harvard.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/ ... ofile.html

It's 27% at NYU.
http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/app ... assprofile

It's 33% at CLS.
http://web.law.columbia.edu/admissions/ ... ss-profile

It's 9% at NU.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... index.html

[bnssweeney]

Yep, new to the whole process and I'm sure it's going to be an interesting ride

My softs are mediocre compared to other K-JDs applying to law school (student gov exec board, summer internships at law offices, community service). Worked at a pizzeria but I really don't think I should put it on my apps.

I just hope the adcomms will see my passion for law even though I didn't take a year off to work as a paralegal. I guess we'll see when it comes to applying. I'm only halfway through my undergrad and have some time to go to build up my resume.

[lawschool22]

Yep, new to the whole process and I'm sure it's going to be an interesting ride

My softs are mediocre compared to other K-JDs applying to law school (student gov exec board, summer internships at law offices, community service). Worked at a pizzeria but I really don't think I should put it on my apps.

I just hope the adcomms will see my passion for law even though I didn't take a year off to work as a paralegal. I guess we'll see when it comes to applying. I'm only halfway through my undergrad and have some time to go to build up my resume.

1. You should put the pizza job on your apps. It shows you are a worker and that you commit to something and stick with it. Even better if you did it during school.

2. WE isn't about demonstrating a passion for law, so don't think paralegal is the only way to go.

[bnssweeney]

Yep, new to the whole process and I'm sure it's going to be an interesting ride

My softs are mediocre compared to other K-JDs applying to law school (student gov exec board, summer internships at law offices, community service). Worked at a pizzeria but I really don't think I should put it on my apps.

I just hope the adcomms will see my passion for law even though I didn't take a year off to work as a paralegal. I guess we'll see when it comes to applying. I'm only halfway through my undergrad and have some time to go to build up my resume.

1. You should put the pizza job on your apps. It shows you are a worker and that you commit to something and stick with it. Even better if you did it during school.

2. WE isn't about demonstrating a passion for law, so don't think paralegal is the only way to go.

I would put the pizza job that I've had for four years, but let's just say, err, my paychecks weren't necessarily on the books

[banjo]

The pizzeria is good WE. Like lawschool22 said, it's not about demonstrating a passion for law; it's your way of showing that you're normal and can hold a conversation for fifteen minutes.

[bnssweeney]

The pizzeria is good WE. Like lawschool22 said, it's not about demonstrating a passion for law; it's your way of showing that you're normal and can hold a conversation for fifteen minutes.

It does look good but honestly (let's hope the bar doesn't track me down) I never worked on the books which I'm sure would raise ethical questions. Got the job when I was 16 though I wasn't thinking about making sure my job was on the books

[bizzike]

As a WE applicant. I figured I'd chip in my two cents:

In your first job, regardless of whether its an AP clerk, postman, circus performer, IT consultant, or investment banker, there's a lot of "teeth cutting". From 7am-2am work days, to quarterly deadlines, to just plain dealing with difficult superiors. A law student with some kind of work experience has better managed expectations of what life is going to be like their first six months out of school. This isn't to typecast K-JDs as individuals who are "lazy" (your GPA and LSAT scores demonstrate ethic and commitment).

But there will always be a number of poli sci K-JDs who are upset when they realize that they won't be arguing court cases at the Hague straight out of school (or ever for that matter), or throw an emotional tantrum about 'work-life balance' when they get their first 18 hour assignment delivered to them on a Friday at 8pm, or are emotionally crushed the first time they get dressed down by a superior. Again, that's not to say this is you, or that every K-JD is doomed from the start, but from an employer's perspective, given the changes in the legal market post 2008, I'd be willing to bet that biglaw has communicated to the law school community that applicants with WE adjust better to the job. This isn't to say that WE applicants are better or more intelligent, but rather that they most probably will deal with the job-related challenges better than K-JD because they have dealt with them before during their career.

Hope this helps.

p.s. your prospective employer doesn't give a shit about whether or not you have a passion for the law, enjoy pro-bono, etc. They care about whether or not you can hit your billable hours targets and keep your supervising associates happy. This also applies to many PI positions as well, they will harass you on metrics as well (caseloads, win rates, etc. etc.).

[manillabay]

So relatively significant we through UG is "WE" or are we talking pure post-grad we. And I think December graduates (intermediate KJDS) should be hopefully in a better position (if they claim to have a job for that 8 month interval when they apply).

[hcrimson2014]

Yep, new to the whole process and I'm sure it's going to be an interesting ride

My softs are mediocre compared to other K-JDs applying to law school (student gov exec board, summer internships at law offices, community service). Worked at a pizzeria but I really don't think I should put it on my apps.

I just hope the adcomms will see my passion for law even though I didn't take a year off to work as a paralegal. I guess we'll see when it comes to applying. I'm only halfway through my undergrad and have some time to go to build up my resume.

I put working in KFC on mine and still got SLS and HLS with mediocre numbers while being KJD, so I think putting your pizzeria experience on cv shouldn't hurt as long as it demonstrates long-term commitment (I worked in the kfc joint from grade 8 to 12) and/or that you have successfully transitioned from it.

[bnssweeney]

Yep, new to the whole process and I'm sure it's going to be an interesting ride

My softs are mediocre compared to other K-JDs applying to law school (student gov exec board, summer internships at law offices, community service). Worked at a pizzeria but I really don't think I should put it on my apps.

I just hope the adcomms will see my passion for law even though I didn't take a year off to work as a paralegal. I guess we'll see when it comes to applying. I'm only halfway through my undergrad and have some time to go to build up my resume.

I put working in KFC on mine and still got SLS and HLS with mediocre numbers while being KJD, so I think putting your pizzeria experience on cv shouldn't hurt as long as it demonstrates long-term commitment (I worked in the kfc joint from grade 8 to 12) and/or that you have successfully transitioned from it.

Never worked on the books though so that's illegal (aka bad for bar C&F maybe)

[bnssweeney]

Yep, new to the whole process and I'm sure it's going to be an interesting ride

My softs are mediocre compared to other K-JDs applying to law school (student gov exec board, summer internships at law offices, community service). Worked at a pizzeria but I really don't think I should put it on my apps.

I just hope the adcomms will see my passion for law even though I didn't take a year off to work as a paralegal. I guess we'll see when it comes to applying. I'm only halfway through my undergrad and have some time to go to build up my resume.

I put working in KFC on mine and still got SLS and HLS with mediocre numbers while being KJD, so I think putting your pizzeria experience on cv shouldn't hurt as long as it demonstrates long-term commitment (I worked in the kfc joint from grade 8 to 12) and/or that you have successfully transitioned from it.

Never worked on the books though so that's illegal (aka bad for bar C&F maybe)