Job Market Forum

[NovelatLaw]

Hello all, a few questions to some of you. Thank you.

Some basic information: I'm from California and I would like to practice in California however I don't mind living in AZ either.

1) Is studying in the market you want to practice in so important? Why? Why can't I just go to another state, study there save about 120k and then move back to my state, then use my network to find a job in that city?

2) I'm accepted in a 40th ranked school. I don't mind going there, it's a great school. I took the test twice and scored lower the second time. I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam.

3) if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself. I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Thank you

[ManoftheHour]

If you have a full ride to U of A and don't mind working in AZ, go for it. It's not a bad deal.

You can network your way back, but it's an uphill battle. You have a bunch of CA kids that go to UCLA/USC/Cal/Stanford/UC Davis/UCI/UCH who network around the clock for 3 years and still can't find jobs back in the state.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location

[Cal Trask]

1) Is studying in the market you want to practice in so important? Why? Why can't I just go to another state, study there save about 120k and then move back to my state, then use my network to find a job in that city?

1.) Yes, because unless your family owns a firm who's guaranteeing you a job post-graduation, your network doesn't count for all that much. You school has an established alumni network in whatever area it is in, as well as a reputation with local employers. Look at larger firms in your target area and compare the number of hires they have from the regional school compared to the number from AZ.

2) I'm accepted in a 40th ranked school. I don't mind going there, it's a great school. I took the test twice and scored lower the second time. I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam.

3) if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself. I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Retake.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

It's always better to go to the local school because you make a million contacts while in law school. Would you be going into significant debt attending the out of state school? The economy in California is horseshit right now-- are you sure you don't want to practice near where this law school is located?

But no going back to where you are from is not impossible, it's just you don't seem to have an advisable plan.

[NovelatLaw]

It's not a full ride but it's a good package and I'd be saving a lot of money if I chose AZ over Hastings, Pepperdine, or other insanely priced schools from Cali.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Gooner91]

It's not a full ride but it's a good package and I'd be saving a lot of money if I chose AZ over Hastings, Pepperdine, or other insanely priced schools from Cali.

Thanks for the feedback.

Those two schools in CA may not be worth going to. What are your numbers?

[sublime]

..

[ManoftheHour]

It's not a full ride but it's a good package and I'd be saving a lot of money if I chose AZ over Hastings, Pepperdine, or other insanely priced schools from Cali.

Thanks for the feedback.

I feel you bro. I was in that position last year and I retook because I was CA or bust. Best thing I ever did.

U of A isn't terrible if you're minimizing debt and if you are okay with working for a smaller firm in AZ, which is the most likely outcome. Not saying you shouldn't try to get back to CA, just that it's unlikely for all of the reasons listed above.

Btw, I know you hate the LSAT, but you could put your deposit down at U of A and sign up for the June LSAT. There's still a lot of time to study. If you bomb it, no worries. You go to U of A in August. If you do well, you have the choice of sitting out for another cycle or attending if you still wish to. You never know. It took me 4 tries to get a decent score. 4th time was the charm. This way, there's no "What if?" You gave the LSAT 3 tries and you put yourself in the best position that you could.

[NovelatLaw]

It's always better to go to the local school because you make a million contacts while in law school. Would you be going into significant debt attending the out of state school? The economy in California is horseshit right now-- are you sure you don't want to practice near where this law school is located?

But no going back to where you are from is not impossible, it's just you don't seem to have an advisable plan.

Hi, I don't mind working in AZ. I think the state has potential for growth. I'd be borrowing about 80k for the whole three years. Maybe less than that it depends on how well I do in 1L.

[TooOld4This]

Real live lawyer here.

1) Is studying in the market you want to practice in so important? Why? Why can't I just go to another state, study there save about 120k and then move back to my state, then use my network to find a job in that city?

law school reputations are largely local. Do you have a network full of lawyers with hiring authority at places of employment that hire from 40th ranked law schools? If so, great! Go there. But if you don't, expect that you will need to graduate order of the coif to even get a look, and you will be behind the people from the top schools and local schools.

2) I'm accepted in a 40th ranked school. I don't mind going there, it's a great school. I took the test twice and scored lower the second time. I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam.

Very little of any lawyer's work involves either negotiating or arguing. If studying for the LSAT bores you, you are likely to have a hard time being a lawyer.

3) if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself. I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

If your debt load will only be roughly equal to a realistic first year salary (Im guessing $60-80k is probably a median expectation for that range of schools) and you are ok with not being able to leave the area for at least 5 years after graduation, go for it. Otherwise, quit whining about the LSAT and take it until you have a score that will get you into a school that matches your goals at a price that makes sense.

[NovelatLaw]

It's not a full ride but it's a good package and I'd be saving a lot of money if I chose AZ over Hastings, Pepperdine, or other insanely priced schools from Cali.

Thanks for the feedback.

I feel you bro. I was in that position last year and I retook because I was CA or bust. Best thing I ever did.

U of A isn't terrible if you're minimizing debt and if you are okay with working for a smaller firm in AZ, which is the most likely outcome. Not saying you shouldn't try to get back to CA, just that it's unlikely for all of the reasons listed above.

Btw, I know you hate the LSAT, but you could put your deposit down at U of A and sign up for the June LSAT. There's still a lot of time to study. If you bomb it, no worries. You go to U of A in August. If you do well, you have the choice of sitting out for another cycle or attending if you still wish to. You never know. It took me 4 tries to get a decent score. 4th time was the charm. This way, there's no "What if?" You gave the LSAT 3 tries and you put yourself in the best position that you could.

Thanks, I guess one more shot at the LSAT won't hurt. Will be signing up for the June exam.

[NovelatLaw]

Real live lawyer here.

1) Is studying in the market you want to practice in so important? Why? Why can't I just go to another state, study there save about 120k and then move back to my state, then use my network to find a job in that city?

Law school reputations are largely local. Do you have a network full of lawyers with hiring authority at places of employment that hire from 40th ranked law schools? If so, great! Go there. But if you don't, expect that you will need to graduate order of the coif to even get a look, and you will be behind the people from the top schools and local schools.

2) I'm accepted in a 40th ranked school. I don't mind going there, it's a great school. I took the test twice and scored lower the second time. I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam.

Very little of any lawyer's work involves either negotiating or arguing. If studying for the LSAT bores you, you are likely to have a hard time being a lawyer.

3) if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself. I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

If your debt load will only be roughly equal to a realistic first year salary (Im guessing $60-80k is probably a median expectation for that range of schools) and you are ok with not being able to leave the area for at least 5 years after graduation, go for it. Otherwise, quit whining about the LSAT and take it until you have a score that will get you into a school that matches your goals at a price that makes sense.

I wasn't whining and I'll retake in June. Also, I'd like to be a defense attorney or even prosecution and from what I understand there's definitely negotiating and arguing...so you must be in a different field of law I presume.

[ManoftheHour]

Thanks, I guess one more shot at the LSAT won't hurt. Will be signing up for the June exam.

You've nothing to lose other than time studying and the $150 for the exam. The payoff can be HUGE too. Imagine $$$ at USC/UCLA or a full ride at UCH/UCD/UCI next cycle. That fact that you deposited could take some pressure off of you and you may be more calm during this retake.

Best of luck!

[TooOld4This]

I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam. . . . if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself.

This is whining in my book.

I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Yet you are pretty quick to to dismiss those views.

You aren't going to be a trial lawyer right out of the gate. Even if you are, the amount of time spent either arguing or negotiating is a very small percentage of your time. Prep time, research, and writing is the bulk of the practice. Much of that work makes studying for the LSAT seem down right exciting.

[bobloblaw0227]

Congrats on getting in and getting some money. In my estimation, with this year shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history (thanks largely to TLS), it is a great time to go to law school. U of A is arguably the best law school in Arizona, and there are sure to be opportunities there. I'm not a career counselor or hiring partner, so I can't give you great advice, but just wanted to drop in and say don't get discouraged with the pervasive negativity on TLS. I'm sure whatever choice you make will work out. Personally, I think if you're going to go to a regional school, go to the one close to where you want to work.

[copingtrope]

...this year [is] shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history

it is a great time to go to law school.

This doesn't really follow.

[Cellar-door]

Hello all, a few questions to some of you. Thank you.

Some basic information: I'm from California and I would like to practice in California however I don't mind living in AZ either.

1) Is studying in the market you want to practice in so important? Why? Why can't I just go to another state, study there save about 120k and then move back to my state, then use my network to find a job in that city?

2) I'm accepted in a 40th ranked school. I don't mind going there, it's a great school. I took the test twice and scored lower the second time. I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam.

3) if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself. I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Thank you

Don't go to law school.
If you can't retake the LSAT because you hate it, you are going to have a terrible time in law school and in practice, assuming you even pass the bar exam.

[TheSpanishMain]

"You should be a lawyer because you're so good at arguing" is like something you say to a precocious five year old. If you can't buckle down and study for the LSAT because you hate it so much, how are you going to study in law school? I'm not sure you know what lawyers actually do day to day.

[NovelatLaw]

I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam. . . . if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself.

This is whining in my book.

I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Yet you are pretty quick to to dismiss those views.

You aren't going to be a trial lawyer right out of the gate. Even if you are, the amount of time spent either arguing or negotiating is a very small percentage of your time. Prep time, research, and writing is the bulk of the practice. Much of that work makes studying for the LSAT seem down right exciting.

I appreciate the feedback and I understand it's not all fun and games. It's not as though I can't handle the LSAT rather It's that I've already dedicated two years of my life on improving my score. Numbers aren't everything and I believe I can be successful without attending a T10 school. I was interested in hearing from professionals who might agree with this view since those of you who disagree seem to be very easy to come by.

Also, you mentioned something earlier along the lines of if I'm only borrowing the amount of money that, say, I can make in my first year out of law, then it would be worth attending. My question to you is: what factors are you basing this calculation on??? And yes, my tuition will be less than 70k.

[NovelatLaw]

Hello all, a few questions to some of you. Thank you.

Some basic information: I'm from California and I would like to practice in California however I don't mind living in AZ either.

1) Is studying in the market you want to practice in so important? Why? Why can't I just go to another state, study there save about 120k and then move back to my state, then use my network to find a job in that city?

2) I'm accepted in a 40th ranked school. I don't mind going there, it's a great school. I took the test twice and scored lower the second time. I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam.

3) if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself. I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Thank you

Don't go to law school.
If you can't retake the LSAT because you hate it, you are going to have a terrible time in law school and in practice, assuming you even pass the bar exam.

Yes, because if you can't score above a 160 on the lsat then you'll never do well in law school. You must be the sharpest kid in class. Thanks for your opinion.

[NovelatLaw]

Congrats on getting in and getting some money. In my estimation, with this year shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history (thanks largely to TLS), it is a great time to go to law school. U of A is arguably the best law school in Arizona, and there are sure to be opportunities there. I'm not a career counselor or hiring partner, so I can't give you great advice, but just wanted to drop in and say don't get discouraged with the pervasive negativity on TLS. I'm sure whatever choice you make will work out. Personally, I think if you're going to go to a regional school, go to the one close to where you want to work.

Thank you. Are you an attorney? Which state? I appreciate the feedback, by the way.

[SDviaVA]

Going to school where you want to practice is important because "its not what you know but who you know." When you are in law school you will be doing internships at firms or with judges and those internships often lead to jobs. Also, alumni are loyal to their schools and eager to hire new grads from their school. If you go to school in one market and then move to another, you loose any connections you made through an employer during law school and you are much less likely to encounter alumni who will look favorably on your resume.

Plus, it also helps to know people in the legal community where you work and the majority of your classmates will stick around the city they went to law school in. Thus, for instance, you will go to the courthouse and the judicial clerk will be the same guy you studied for con law with. This helps when you need something from the Judge. When you go to a new market, you will be the outsider.

But going to school in your target market is just one factor to consider and if you are getting a substantial scholarship this may outweigh the benefits staying in your target market.

Could you stay in AZ if you had to? A lot of people go to law school in one market, planning to leave after law school is over. But its hard to leave for another city when you have a job offer in the city you went to school in and no job in the new city.

[BigZuck]

I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam. . . . if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself.

This is whining in my book.

I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Yet you are pretty quick to to dismiss those views.

You aren't going to be a trial lawyer right out of the gate. Even if you are, the amount of time spent either arguing or negotiating is a very small percentage of your time. Prep time, research, and writing is the bulk of the practice. Much of that work makes studying for the LSAT seem down right exciting.

I appreciate the feedback and I understand it's not all fun and games. It's not as though I can't handle the LSAT rather It's that I've already dedicated two years of my life on improving my score. Numbers aren't everything and I believe I can be successful without attending a T10 school. I was interested in hearing from professionals who might agree with this view since those of you who disagree seem to be very easy to come by.

Also, you mentioned something earlier along the lines of if I'm only borrowing the amount of money that, say, I can make in my first year out of law, then it would be worth attending. My question to you is: what factors are you basing this calculation on??? And yes, my tuition will be less than 70k.

If you dug hard enough you could probably find someone who would tell you that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment. That doesn't mean that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment.

I'm not sure you really understand what law school/legal practice is all about. It's not mock trial every day, usually you're nose deep in stuff that's way more esoteric and soul-numbingly dull than the material on the LSAT. If studying for tests ain't your thing, then don't go to law school.

Also, don't go to law school unless you can attend a strong regional for cheap and are prepared to live and work in that region long term, OR it's a tippy top school. Going to UofA and trying to get a job in CA is a really poor decision IMO. I know someone who did that, would not recommend. She found something eventually, but it took a long time, its low paying and not a practice area that she particularly enjoys. She basically just had to take what she could get because employers aren't particularly clamoring for UofA grads in CA. Also, she's attractive so that should have given her a solid bump, if she was a schmo she might still be looking for a job. Plus she has to carry around DAT DEBT. It's just one anecdote I know, but I'd imagine that a lot of people struggle like that when you look at the job placement statistics of schools like this.

[El Principe]

...this year [is] shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history

it is a great time to go to law school.

This doesn't really follow.

Actually.... if enrollment is dipping but the amount of jobs remains relatively stable, the percentage of students at law schools enjoying favorable outcomes increases, even if the actual number of those jobs never moves.

[copingtrope]

...this year [is] shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history

it is a great time to go to law school.

This doesn't really follow.

Actually.... if enrollment is dipping but the amount of jobs remains relatively stable, the percentage of students at law schools enjoying favorable outcomes increases, even if the actual number of those jobs never moves.

Yes, I understood what he/she was trying to say, but that does not mean that it is a great time to go to law school. Just because employment prospects could go from super-shitty to kind-of-shitty doesn't make law school a great option.