Is this starting salary list legit? Forum

[BillsFan9907]

1. Columbia University—$128,860
With one of the lowest acceptance rates in the nation (13% in 2010), attending Columbia’s Law School pays off. Membership in this select club produces the highest salary on average. Columbia sends a large percentage of its graduates, 70%, to law firms, the highest paying sector of all law placements. Of those that go to law firms, Columbia places first, with 55%, for students working in firms of 501+ size, the highest paying sub sector amongst law firms.

2. University of Pennsylvania—$127,274
Located in the city of brotherly love, the University of Pennsylvania sends most of its graduates to New York, where they reap sizable salary benefits. The University of Pennsylvania had a high percentage, 64% of graduates, sent to law firms, where they were fifth with an average salary of $151, 609.

3. University of Chicago—$127,258
The University of Chicago has an impressive spread. It placed within the top 10 of our lists for each category: Law Firms, Judicial Clerkship, Public Interest, Business and Industry and Government. It even placed second in Judicial Clerkships with the average salary of $61,067.

4. University of Michigan—$127,159
Located in Ann Arbor, the University of Michigan wins out as the school that has the highest paid lawyers on average. The majority of its employed graduates, 52%, went to law firms, who earned $149,569. Of those that went to law firms, 62% ended up going to law firms over 501+.

5. George Washington University—$126,089
The oldest law school in Washington D.C, it is fitting then that George Washington University is number one in average salary for government employees with a salary of $72,509. Perhaps this good pay is a result of power in numbers–they also send the most graduates by percentage, 46% of their graduates, to Washington D.C.

6. New York University—$124,557
New York University is ranked #1 in Tax Law and International Law by the U.S. News Rankings—and their graduates get paid well to boot. New York University had the majority of its graduates (56%) go to law firms, for which it has the second highest salary of $155,729.

7. University of California, Berkeley—$119,530
Having one of the lowest acceptance rates amongst law schools, Berkeley Law also has produced some well known leaders in the field from attorney generals to chief justices. It’s not surprising then that Berkeley scored well within the top ten of Law Firms and Judicial Clerkships and second for salaries for Government employees at $65,375.

8. Harvard University—$119,090
Always ranked amongst the top schools, it goes without saying that Harvard Law is a prestigious program. With a long history of successful graduates, Harvard lawyers are compensated accordingly. Harvard placed 3rd in law firms with a salary of $153,738 and 1st in Business and Industry with a salary of $125,771.

9. University of Southern California—$118,684
With a long history in the southwest, the University of Southern California Gould School of Law keeps most of their graduates—73%–in sunny California, where they make a pretty good living. University of Southern California had a particularly strong showing in both the government category with a salary of $60,123 and business and industry category with a salary of $81,834.

10. Boston University—$110,442
Boston University sent a good percentage of its graduates to law firms, with the highest percentage going to firms of size 501+. Their highest reported salary is $175,000 from a lawyer working in a firm of 501+. If the high salary doesn’t attract you, another fun fact—Boston University Law is conducted out of one of the tallest law buildings—the Law Tower—at 256 feet, 18 stories.

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/nerdscho ... ls-salary/

[t-14orbust]

It's useless since lawyer salaries are on a bimodal curve. Good luck finding a ~100k salaried job with good work/life balance

[Marquis]

lol at BU using the height of the law building as a selling point.

[BillsFan9907]

I'm well aware of the bimodality of it all, but it still seems strange, even when factoring all that in, that GW would be so high?

[politics89]

Where is that chart from? Just curious.

[t-14orbust]

I'm well aware of the bimodality of it all, but it still seems strange, even when factoring all that in, that GW would be so high?

Data is self-reported. It's more likely that those with higher salaries would respond.

[t-14orbust]

Where is that chart from? Just curious.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/nalp-giv ... er-salary/

[Tiago Splitter]

First four look legit. Then you get to GW. More than 20% of its class of 2012 was in school funded jobs making $15 bucks an hour nine months after graduation

[Moneytrees]

First four look legit. Then you get to GW. More than 20% of its class of 2012 was in school funded jobs making $15 bucks an hour nine months after graduation

Well to be fair to GW almost a 30 percent of their last graduating class went on to work for Biglaw and over 30 percent got goverment or public interest jobs, so it's not like job prospects are weak coming out of there. But obviously that list is flawed and GW and BU should not be in the top 15.

[Tiago Splitter]

First four look legit. Then you get to GW. More than 20% of its class of 2012 was in school funded jobs making $15 bucks an hour nine months after graduation

Well to be fair to GW almost a 30 percent of their last graduating class went on to work for Biglaw and over 30 percent got goverment or public interest jobs, so it's not like job prospects are weak coming out of there. But obviously that list is flawed and GW and BU should not be in the top 15.

I'd argue that the job prospects are pretty weak, largely because most of those jobs in government/PI are the school-funded ones I mentioned earlier. But I digress. The issue is that they obviously aren't counting everybody.

[Moneytrees]

First four look legit. Then you get to GW. More than 20% of its class of 2012 was in school funded jobs making $15 bucks an hour nine months after graduation

Well to be fair to GW almost a 30 percent of their last graduating class went on to work for Biglaw and over 30 percent got goverment or public interest jobs, so it's not like job prospects are weak coming out of there. But obviously that list is flawed and GW and BU should not be in the top 15.

I'd argue that the job prospects are pretty weak, largely because most of those jobs in government/PI are the school-funded ones I mentioned earlier. But I digress. The issue is that they obviously aren't counting everybody.

Wait can you explain that? The government jobs on Law School Transparency include the school funded jobs provided by the school?

[Tiago Splitter]

First four look legit. Then you get to GW. More than 20% of its class of 2012 was in school funded jobs making $15 bucks an hour nine months after graduation

Well to be fair to GW almost a 30 percent of their last graduating class went on to work for Biglaw and over 30 percent got goverment or public interest jobs, so it's not like job prospects are weak coming out of there. But obviously that list is flawed and GW and BU should not be in the top 15.

I'd argue that the job prospects are pretty weak, largely because most of those jobs in government/PI are the school-funded ones I mentioned earlier. But I digress. The issue is that they obviously aren't counting everybody.

Wait can you explain that? The government jobs on Law School Transparency include the school funded jobs provided by the school?

GW shows 466 total jobs that were long term, full time, bar passage required. Of those, 128 were school funded. When you go down further you'll see that the numbers in the "Employed" section total 466, because they are dividing up all of the long term, full time, bar passage required jobs into the various types of employment. Within these numbers exist the 128 people that are being paid by the school. Unfortunately the data doesn't make clear exactly where these 128 fall, but if GW is like most other schools the people getting paid by the school are being put into government and PI positions. And given that 187 people are in government/PI it seems reasonable to conclude that the 128 probably get put there.

[BillsFan9907]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

[Tiago Splitter]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

[Moneytrees]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

What about the government jobs mentioned on Law School Transparency. What is the deal with those jobs?

[Tiago Splitter]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

What about the government jobs mentioned on Law School Transparency. What is the deal with those jobs?

Many of them are school funded for the same reasons. Government budgets aren't big enough, and government agencies are happy to bring on free help. Presumably some of those jobs are legit full time ones, but many are school funded. What I'd recommend is to simply subtract the number of school funded jobs from the government/PI total when looking at a school's employment figures.

[Moneytrees]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

What about the government jobs mentioned on Law School Transparency. What is the deal with those jobs?

Many of them are school funded for the same reasons. Government budgets aren't big enough, and government agencies are happy to bring on free help. Presumably some of those jobs are legit full time ones, but many are school funded. What I'd recommend is to simply subtract the number of school funded jobs from the government/PI total when looking at a school's employment figures.

One more question. LST doesn't report information on job placement to boutique/small firms. Not all those jobs are "shitlaw", if you will. Is there a source that factors in those jobs in their employment reports?

[Tiago Splitter]

One more question. LST doesn't report information on job placement to boutique/small firms. Not all those jobs are "shitlaw", if you will. Is there a source that factors in those jobs in their employment reports?

The NALP report actually does this, and there is a "NALP Report Format" tab on LST. Unfortunately this is not information schools are required to make public, and many of them don't. If you look through a NALP report for a school like NYU, which does publish all of the info, you can see how having this kind of detailed information would be helpful.

[jenesaislaw]

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

What about the government jobs mentioned on Law School Transparency. What is the deal with those jobs?

Many of them are school funded for the same reasons. Government budgets aren't big enough, and government agencies are happy to bring on free help. Presumably some of those jobs are legit full time ones, but many are school funded. What I'd recommend is to simply subtract the number of school funded jobs from the government/PI total when looking at a school's employment figures.

One more question. LST doesn't report information on job placement to boutique/small firms. Not all those jobs are "shitlaw", if you will. Is there a source that factors in those jobs in their employment reports?

I don't think what you are looking for is publicly available. But as Tiago says, some of the info is on there (the ABA report, not the NALP report I think). What are you looking for?

And to answer the question about government jobs that are school-funded. We can deduce that some of the jobs in that category are school-funded, but we can't know from the currently public data how many. I am contemplating adding an asterisk like we do with the Employment Score in 2011. That is, we say "Up to X% of these jobs are school-funded." Note that for 2012, the Employment Score says explicitly what percentage are in the Employment Score (LST convinced the ABA to make that change). Maybe in the future the ABA will release the school-funded by employer type matrix. In fact, I will send another request for this right now.

[worldtraveler]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

1 year of experience should be helpful in finding a job.

[Tiago Splitter]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

1 year of experience should be helpful in finding a job.

Of course it should. Is it? I wish I had evidence that it is. What we know is that 9 months out a huge portion of GW's class is still working in those positions and making only $15 an hour. Maybe options really open up just three months later.

[Moneytrees]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

1 year of experience should be helpful in finding a job.

I would like to see the rate of placement into mid-sized and boutique firms. Firms that don't pay market, but that pay significantly better than jobs referred to as "shitlaw" on this site. It seems like that information would be helpful in understanding one's realistic job prospects coming out of law school. For instance, my employer is a mid-sized consumer law firm that pays its entry level attorneys more than 40K a year.

Thanks for the info about school-funded jobs.

[bloustbloust]

looks accurate, but don't forget to adjust for cost of living. 120K in NYC is nothing compared to 120K in your mid-western hometown.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What kind of jobs are these exactly? Research assistants for professors?

No they typically put you into a PI organization or something similar where you help out with the hope that you'll gain experience and can then more easily get a job down the road. The organizations can't afford to hire anyone, but they need to help, so it works. Unfortunately at $15 bucks an hour it doesn't do much for you, and there isn't any evidence that the experience helps these people actually land real legal jobs at the end of one year.

1 year of experience should be helpful in finding a job.

Of course it should. Is it? I wish I had evidence that it is. What we know is that 9 months out a huge portion of GW's class is still working in those positions and making only $15 an hour. Maybe options really open up just three months later.

FWIW, I know students at my school who got similar school-funded positions ended up getting decent jobs out of it (in the context of my law school/market... midlaw/state AG, mostly). In fact, pretty much everyone from my class ended up employed, even if a number of them got those jobs after the 9-month mark that LST/ABA measures. (Obviously getting a job sooner is better than getting one later, so I'm not trying to say this makes up for weaker employment stats, but I do think the school-funded jobs can help put someone in a better position.)