Southwestern Law School PT vs Loyola PT Forum

[FutbolCrazy]

I'm trying to decide if I should attend Southwestern PT w/ about $20K/yr scholarship or LLS PT w/ no scholarship. The underlying question here is: should I take the money or go with a higher ranked school? I am a non-traditional student with financial obligations (mortgage and kids), so going full-time is not an option. I am interested in doing Labor/Employment Law and stay in the LA area. Any thoughts on this would be a great help.

[WaltGrace83]

Both are bad options to be quite frank with you. You absolutely must retake with hopes of getting a big scholarship at a PT program.

I am a non-traditional student with financial obligations

It is good that you recognize that because taking either deal may (will most likely) result in financial ruin for you and your family. I wish I was kidding.

[BigZuck]

Just don't go to law school. Especially not these schools and especially not at these prices. Especially considering you have real human lives hanging in the balance. You have to provide for them, not take food off their table. Just stick with your current job, your whole family will almost certainly be better for it.

[whereskyle]

I'm trying to decide if I should attend Southwestern PT w/ about $20K/yr scholarship or LLS PT w/ no scholarship. The underlying question here is: should I take the money or go with a higher ranked school? I am a non-traditional student with financial obligations (mortgage and kids), so going full-time is not an option. I am interested in doing Labor/Employment Law and stay in the LA area. Any thoughts on this would be a great help.

A relative of mine went to Southwestern at full price. She is doing criminal defense solo, a job which s/he secured through her own efforts. S/he is very happy with her job and has 2 kids. S/he is NOT making enough to put any significant dent in her debt load, and I don't think one should expect that one will be able to cover 200k+ of debt coming from either of these schools. If that doesn't bother you (your debt load from SW may be more like 120k) and you just really want to be a lawyer, then graduating from these schools will enable/prepare you to take the bar, but IDK how much else it will do for you as far as securing a job.

[whereskyle]

Just don't go to law school. Especially not these schools and especially not at these prices. Especially considering you have real human lives hanging in the balance. You have to provide for them, not take food off their table. Just stick with your current job, your whole family will almost certainly be better for it.

It's true that it might not be fiscally sound, but some people have jobs that are unrewarding, whereas practicing law can be immensely satisfying. Still, I wouldn't take the risk to go to these schools, unless they were entirely free (COL included), but I'm young, and I don't want to be in a quarter million dollars of debt.

[californiauser]

Just don't go to law school. Especially not these schools and especially not at these prices. Especially considering you have real human lives hanging in the balance. You have to provide for them, not take food off their table. Just stick with your current job, your whole family will almost certainly be better for it.

It's true that it might not be fiscally sound, but some people have jobs that are unrewarding, whereas practicing law can be immensely satisfying. Still, I wouldn't take the risk to go to these schools, unless they were entirely free (COL included), but I'm young, and I don't want to be in a quarter million dollars of debt.

I don't think the schools in the OP are worth going to for free. She'll be paying thousands of dollars a month for the next 15+ years to repay debt at the listed costs. How will OP save for retirement or kids' college? Even if OP somehow got big law (which, statistically, she won't), she'd be an absentee parent working 12 hour days.

[whereskyle]

Just don't go to law school. Especially not these schools and especially not at these prices. Especially considering you have real human lives hanging in the balance. You have to provide for them, not take food off their table. Just stick with your current job, your whole family will almost certainly be better for it.

It's true that it might not be fiscally sound, but some people have jobs that are unrewarding, whereas practicing law can be immensely satisfying. Still, I wouldn't take the risk to go to these schools, unless they were entirely free (COL included), but I'm young, and I don't want to be in a quarter million dollars of debt.

I don't think the schools in the OP are worth going to for free. She'll be paying thousands of dollars a month for the next 15+ years to repay debt at the listed costs. How will OP save for retirement or kids' college? Even if OP somehow got big law (which, statistically, she won't), she'd be an absentee parent working 12 hour days.

Yes, this is almost guaranteed to be a situation in which OP is servicing debt for the rest of OP's life. I know that to do such a thing is not common TLS wisdom, but for someone who REALLY wants to be a lawyer, is dissatisfied with one's job, is stuck in L.A., and must attend a PT program, the only options are bad ones. (idk if USC or UCLA offer PT programs). If OP wants respectable options according to our TLS standards, OP needs to consider more respected schools that offer PT programs, OP may need to move, or OP may need to wait until the kids are no longer dependent upon OP. Clearly, this is a spot between a rock and a hard place. Believe it or not, some people want to practice law so much that they don't care if they can pay back their debt (I.e., it is not a money making proposition, but a personal one). The person I know is only 4 years out of law school, so IDK what said person will think of person's choice 5 years from now. I will close by saying that I really don't think OP will have any likelihood of paying back OP's loans in the foreseeable future, if OP attends one of these schools for more than $120k.

[BigZuck]

Just don't go to law school. Especially not these schools and especially not at these prices. Especially considering you have real human lives hanging in the balance. You have to provide for them, not take food off their table. Just stick with your current job, your whole family will almost certainly be better for it.

It's true that it might not be fiscally sound, but some people have jobs that are unrewarding, whereas practicing law can be immensely satisfying. Still, I wouldn't take the risk to go to these schools, unless they were entirely free (COL included), but I'm young, and I don't want to be in a quarter million dollars of debt.

I don't think the schools in the OP are worth going to for free. She'll be paying thousands of dollars a month for the next 15+ years to repay debt at the listed costs. How will OP save for retirement or kids' college? Even if OP somehow got big law (which, statistically, she won't), she'd be an absentee parent working 12 hour days.

Yes, this is almost guaranteed to be a situation in which OP is servicing debt for the rest of OP's life. I know that to do such a thing is not common TLS wisdom, but for someone who REALLY wants to be a lawyer, is dissatisfied with one's job, is stuck in L.A., and must attend a PT program, the only options are bad ones. (idk if USC or UCLA offer PT programs). If OP wants respectable options according to our TLS standards, OP needs to consider more respected schools that offer PT programs, OP may need to move, or OP may need to wait until the kids are no longer dependent upon OP. Clearly, this is a spot between a rock and a hard place. Believe it or not, some people want to practice law so much that they don't care if they can pay back their debt (I.e., it is not a money making proposition, but a personal one). The person I know is only 4 years out of law school, so IDK what said person will think of person's choice 5 years from now. I will close by saying that I really don't think OP will have any likelihood of paying back OP's loans in the foreseeable future, if OP attends one of these schools for more than $120k.

There is neither a rock nor a hard place. No one has to go to law school.

I get that there are unfulfilling jobs that people hate. Believe me, I really do. But when you're an adult/married/have kids it kind of stops being about you. I'm not big on going into a lot of debt for schools with bad job prospects but at the end of the day if some 22 year old kid is hell bent on it, to them I say "YOLO." I can't say that in good conscience to someone who has other people relying on them. If the 22 year old kid wants to ruin their own life then that's up to them. But if an adult wants to drag a family down with them and harm innocents? I'm sorry Jose, but no way.

Please OP, do not go to law school if these are your options.

[FutbolCrazy]

Thanks for all the feedback. I actually got into several UC schools with decent money, but the opportunity cost of taking myself out of the labor market was too high. And that is why I decided to go the PT route. I have done the math, and If attend Southwestern, I'll graduate with $77 K in loans - plus $20k of undergrad loans. My main motivation for going to Law School is career change. Although I make decent money at my job, I have always thought about opening my own practice.

[Paul Campos]

Thanks for all the feedback. I actually got into several UC schools with decent money, but the opportunity cost of taking myself out of the labor market was too high. And that is why I decided to go the PT route. I have done the math, and If attend Southwestern, I'll graduate with $77 K in loans - plus $20k of undergrad loans. My main motivation for going to Law School is career change. Although I make decent money at my job, I have always thought about opening my own practice.

This is an objectively terrible idea. If you go to Southwestern, your realistic best-case scenario is that five years from now you'll be making about the same salary you make today, but working much longer hours with far less job security, and you'll have $100,000 instead of $15,000 in educational debt.

You don't even want to hear the worst-case scenario (which is actually far more probable).

It's still not as bad of an idea as Loyola at sticker though.

[TheSpanishMain]

Thanks for all the feedback. I actually got into several UC schools with decent money, but the opportunity cost of taking myself out of the labor market was too high. And that is why I decided to go the PT route. I have done the math, and If attend Southwestern, I'll graduate with $77 K in loans - plus $20k of undergrad loans. My main motivation for going to Law School is career change. Although I make decent money at my job, I have always thought about opening my own practice.

Do not attend either of these schools with the plan of opening your own practice. It's a horrible idea and will set you and your family up for disaster.

[whereskyle]

OP, you really need to know someone who will likely give you a job to make this a lower (not low) risk proposition. I'm going to a T14 for 60k and I have word from two small law lawyers with whom I'm very close that they will help me out in case my school doesn't place me. You should already have a job lined up to risk going to these schools.

[FutbolCrazy]

Do not attend either of these schools with the plan of opening your own practice. It's a horrible idea and will set you and your family up for disaster.[/quote]

Thank you for the feedback. But I do have to ask you explain this a little further.

If I do decide to attend, I would stick it out at my job through school. I'm pretty realistic about job placements for law graduates in this market, and I know this is an issue across the board and not just specific to one school. Hence the idea of starting my own practice. And if all else fails, I would still have my current job to as a back up plan.

But given what you have all said, I am thinking that UNLESS I have a full tuition ride, I may want to reconsider.

[BigZuck]

Do not attend either of these schools with the plan of opening your own practice. It's a horrible idea and will set you and your family up for disaster.

Thank you for the feedback. But I do have to ask you explain this a little further.

If I do decide to attend, I would stick it out at my job through school. I'm pretty realistic about job placements for law graduates in this market, and I know this is an issue across the board and not just specific to one school. Hence the idea of starting my own practice. And if all else fails, I would still have my current job to as a back up plan.

But given what you have all said, I am thinking that UNLESS I have a full tuition ride, I may want to reconsider.[/quote]

Problem is that law school doesn't really teach you how to be a lawyer. You have to be a hell of a business man, be good at getting clients besides not knowing WTF you're doing, and simultaneously learning WTF you should be doing. That's a tall order.

I just think its really unfair and selfish to do this to your family.

[WaltGrace83]

But given what you have all said, I am thinking that UNLESS I have a full tuition ride, I may want to reconsider.

Absolutely! However, I would once again say that, if you absolutely must, you should only go to these schools with a full ride. Even then though, the reality is that this is still playing a hell of a game of roulette. Honestly, TT/TTT are good only in a few - very few - cases and unfortunately this really isn't one of them. I would retake the LSAT and aim much higher, perhaps UCLA's PT program if it has one? USC?

[janefbk]

HI OP I am a 3L from Loyola and I too have a child and a mortgage (72 days until graduation WooHoo!) . Going to Loyola was not a "bad" option for me and I did not "take food off" my son's table. Unlike the 0Ls on this forum who have little to no idea what they are talking about, I understand what you are going through. I worked for many years as an administrative assistant for various corporations and actually got paid more than some attorneys today. BUT I wanted to become a lawyer. Like you, I am no stranger to financial obligations. But I weighed my options and I have ZERO regrets. YES retaking the LSAT and possibly getting more scholarship money is a always a great idea but don't listen to this "do not go to law school" B.S. I hear on this forum over and over again. Loyola actually has an excellent reputation in LA. In fact, our bar passage rate last year beat USC and UC Berkely.

Oh and about job prospects.. I got a job through OCI and NO I was not in the top 20%. I got the job because I have a solid resume and good interview skills (which is something you only get through experience). It is at a small law firm with 15 attorneys in a very nice city. As a mother, the hours are perfect for me (most attorneys show up at 9-10am and no one is there after 6pm). I love the people that work there AND it pays pretty damn well. I worked at Big-Law before going to law school (as an admin assistant) and HATED the looooooooonnngg hours. It's great if you are single but as mothers it is just not feasible.

Going to Loyola did not set my "family up for disaster." I am pursuing my dreams and I would want my child to do the same. Life is too short to not do what you want to do. I loved my law school journey and my family is better because of it. Remember, a happy mommy is a happy family! Yes I have debt but it is manageable (you have a mortgage so you know the drill). Since you are going PT + working I would try to pay some of the tuition along the way (any small amount helps). Good luck to you and feel free to ask me any questions.

[WaltGrace83]

HI OP I am a 3L from Loyola and I too have a child and a mortgage (72 days until graduation WooHoo!) . Going to Loyola was not a "bad" option for me and I did not "take food off" my son's table. Unlike the 0Ls on this forum who have little to no idea what they are talking about, I understand what you are going through. I worked for many years as an administrative assistant for various corporations and actually got paid more than some attorneys today. BUT I wanted to become a lawyer. Like you, I am no stranger to financial obligations. But I weighed my options and I have ZERO regrets. YES retaking the LSAT and possibly getting more scholarship money is a always a great idea but don't listen to this "do not go to law school" B.S. I hear on this forum over and over again. Loyola actually has an excellent reputation in LA. In fact, our bar passage rate last year beat USC and UC Berkely.

Oh and about job prospects.. I got a job through OCI and NO I was not in the top 20%. I got the job because I have a solid resume and good interview skills (which is something you only get through experience). It is at a small law firm with 1-15 attorneys in a very nice city. As a mother, the hours are perfect for me (most attorneys show up at 9-10am and no one is there after 6pm). I love the people that work there AND it pays pretty damn well. I worked at Big-Law before going to law school (as an admin assistant) and HATED the looooooooonnngg hours. It's great if you are single but as mothers it is just not feasible.

Going to Loyola did not set my "family up for disaster." I am pursuing my dreams and I would want my child to do the same. Life is too short to not do what you want to do. I loved my law school journey and my family is better because of it. Remember, a happy mommy is a happy family! Yes I have debt but it is manageable (you have a mortgage so you know the drill). Since you are going PT + working I would try to pay some of the tuition along the way (any small amount helps). Good luck to you and feel free to ask me any questions.

We never say that everyone at particular schools will be unemployed/financially ruined/etc. However, the reality is still that your situation is anecdotal. I am of course not trying to disrespect you and I am happy that you are doing so well and have achieved your goals - I wish everyone was in your shoes. In all reality though, Loyola has a whopping 40%+ underemployment rate. As you probably already know, this means almost half the class hasn't even become a lawyer 9 months after graduation.

The people on here, 0Ls included, are not the type that "don't know anything." TLSer's are just painfully realistic and I think it always works in one's best interest. You said it yourself, taking the LSAT again and getting more schools is always a great idea.

[BigZuck]

HI OP I am a 3L from Loyola and I too have a child and a mortgage (72 days until graduation WooHoo!) . Going to Loyola was not a "bad" option for me and I did not "take food off" my son's table. Unlike the 0Ls on this forum who have little to no idea what they are talking about, I understand what you are going through. I worked for many years as an administrative assistant for various corporations and actually got paid more than some attorneys today. BUT I wanted to become a lawyer. Like you, I am no stranger to financial obligations. But I weighed my options and I have ZERO regrets. YES retaking the LSAT and possibly getting more scholarship money is a always a great idea but don't listen to this "do not go to law school" B.S. I hear on this forum over and over again. Loyola actually has an excellent reputation in LA. In fact, our bar passage rate last year beat USC and UC Berkely.

Oh and about job prospects.. I got a job through OCI and NO I was not in the top 20%. I got the job because I have a solid resume and good interview skills (which is something you only get through experience). It is at a small law firm with 15 attorneys in a very nice city. As a mother, the hours are perfect for me (most attorneys show up at 9-10am and no one is there after 6pm). I love the people that work there AND it pays pretty damn well. I worked at Big-Law before going to law school (as an admin assistant) and HATED the looooooooonnngg hours. It's great if you are single but as mothers it is just not feasible.

Going to Loyola did not set my "family up for disaster." I am pursuing my dreams and I would want my child to do the same. Life is too short to not do what you want to do. I loved my law school journey and my family is better because of it. Remember, a happy mommy is a happy family! Yes I have debt but it is manageable (you have a mortgage so you know the drill). Since you are going PT + working I would try to pay some of the tuition along the way (any small amount helps). Good luck to you and feel free to ask me any questions.

One anecdote isn't particularly helpful. Make sure you also tell the OP about all your classmates who did not get a job. Also, bar passage rate and lay prestige are meaningless.

Also, I'm not a 0L, nor am I young. Solid ad hom though.

[janefbk]

I understand my situation is not the norm and I am very well aware of the fact that many of my classmates do not have jobs. However, most people I know that do not have a job lined up fall into 1 of 3 categories:

1. They went straight to law school after undergrad and have little to no experience in anything
2. They are trying to break into entertainment law
3. Their interview skills are horrendous

Most of the PT students or even FT students I know who have an extensive work history (or are working in law school) are not having any trouble finding jobs. I am not saying that you are 100% guaranteed a job once you graduate but if you have a solid work history you are already ahead of your peers.

OP said in the beginning that FT is not an option. That rules out USC and UCLA. And the idea of uprooting your family to go to an out-of-state school is just not practical. Loyola is THE best PT option you have in LA. If you can get a higher scholarship then that would be fantastic but that decision is up to you. Oh and Loyola students (especially PT students) are super friendly and you will meet a lot of non-traditional students like yourself

I agree that the "0Ls have no idea what they are talking about" comment was harsh but I think it is so shameful to blast OP and accuse her of being selfish. Motherhood is a never-ending job and I believe it is THE hardest job in the world. OP I applaud you for pursuing your goals and having the courage to go down this arduous road of balancing motherhood, work, and law school. I will be honest with you.. IT SUCKS! There are times when you feel like giving up (especially during finals) but in the end it will all be worth it. You are a phenomenal mother and you are setting an excellent example for your children. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise! I am happy to help guide you in any way I can. Come on over to Loyola and I will show you around!

[whereskyle]

I understand my situation is not the norm and I am very well aware of the fact that many of my classmates do not have jobs. However, most people I know that do not have a job lined up fall into 1 of 3 categories:

1. They went straight to law school after undergrad and have little to no experience in anything
2. They are trying to break into entertainment law
3. Their interview skills are horrendous

Most of the PT students or even FT students I know who have an extensive work history (or are working in law school) are not having any trouble finding jobs. I am not saying that you are 100% guaranteed a job once you graduate but if you have a solid work history you are already ahead of your peers.

OP said in the beginning that FT is not an option. That rules out USC and UCLA. And the idea of uprooting your family to go to an out-of-state school is just not practical. Loyola is THE best PT option you have in LA. If you can get a higher scholarship then that would be fantastic but that decision is up to you. Oh and Loyola students (especially PT students) are super friendly and you will meet a lot of non-traditional students like yourself

I agree that the "0Ls have no idea what they are talking about" comment was harsh but I think it is so shameful to blast OP and accuse her of being selfish. Motherhood is a never-ending job and I believe it is THE hardest job in the world. OP I applaud you for pursuing your goals and having the courage to go down this arduous road of balancing motherhood, work, and law school. I will be honest with you.. IT SUCKS! There are times when you feel like giving up (especially during finals) but in the end it will all be worth it. You are a phenomenal mother and you are setting an excellent example for your children. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise! I am happy to help guide you in any way I can. Come on over to Loyola and I will show you around!

I think that the T14 or bust requirement changes when ppl have a slew of experience. All that prestige can help to cover up the fact that many of the K-JD students have no employable skills. Going to Loyola with no experience is practically a ticket to the unemployment line. Ppl who know how to work it can work it from nearly any angle.

[janefbk]

I just realized OP didn't say whether he/she was a mom or dad. Either way! Motherhood/Fatherhood.. it's all the same

[Mack.Hambleton]

Loyola rep?

[whereskyle]

Loyola rep?

Obvi

[tangelo]

...

[FutbolCrazy]

I just realized OP didn't say whether he/she was a mom or dad. Either way! Motherhood/Fatherhood.. it's all the same

Thank you for the insightful posts. I really appreciate your passion and congratulate you for your drive. I agree, the responsibilities are all the same.

Here is my next question - and it is all hypothetical:
I think someone posted on here earlier that I should attend either of these schools ONLY if I have a full ride from each. That's a tall order, given that I applied to LLS late.

With that being said, if I somehow pulled off a full ride to Southwestern and half a ride to LLS, which one should I attend? My initial intuition says LLS because of the better Bar passage rate, but the thought of graduating with 0 tuition loans from Southwestern is extremely appealing.

Also, since going to a UC is out of the question because I am not about to give up my current salary and take out loans to pay my mortgage, I could always re-take the LSAT and apply to LLS next year to see if they throw more money my way. But for what I hear, they throw most of their money to FT applicants. Another issue with this is that since I'm older, waiting one more year to attend law school will cut my working life by one year, which at my age it's pretty significant. And I don't think I can convince my spouse to agree with this What are your thoughts on this?