Newbie Introduction Forum

[Naja]

Good afternoon everyone,

Just introducing myself as a possible Law School Applicant in a few years. I am trying to finish my undergraduate degree, I am a junior at a New Jersey State School (online program).
SGT US Army disabled/retired veteran
MOS: 25S7E1C, Satcom maintainer, controller, planner.
Currently working as a contractor. Satcom Engineer/SME in Maryland.

I have a distinct feeling in my gut that I will never be accepted to law school, but am hopeful regardless.
I am scared that I am wasting my time trying to obtain a dream to study and work in law based on horrible decision making of mine between the years of 2000 and 2003. Between those years I have 40 semester hours of F grades as well as 26 semester hours of decent/ok grades, putting my overall undergrad GPA at a whopping 1.0 for those years.

Starting back in to school again last year, I have only taken 1 class, but am enrolled full time now with approx 56SH remaining for my BS-EET due to a bunch of credit being given for my military experience, AP courses from high school, transfer of grades from aforementioned years 2000-2003. Unfortunately those credits given have no grades applied just credit given (I am pretty sure this isn't calculated in your LSAC GPA).

There is a long story as to my failure in college between the years of 2000-2003, mostly involving Depression/fooling my parents/homelessness/being completely retarded and never withdrawing from a course I was failing. Those are VERY dark years in my life that I barely remember and really wish I could leave behind me, but sadly I cannot. I can say that I finally buckled down and started working full time; eventually joining the Army and making something of my life, getting mental health help/meds/counseling. I am a changed man now as apposed to the boy I was 14 years ago.

Looking at the math, even if my next 56 SH of undergrad are 4.0, my undergraduate LSAC GPA would only be a 2.34.
I have not taken a practice LSAT yet, but can honestly say that I am ready to do what it takes to get a 170+.

I know my chances of getting into law school are slim to none with my past being what it is, but if anyone here has any suggestions, words of advice or guidance on what my path should be over the next 2 years before applying to law school, please let me know. Am I a lost cause? Am I wasting my time on a dream that is unobtainable because of a dark life that happened a decade ago? I have sugar plum dreams of attending a T14 school, but based on my GPA alone, I think I would be hard pressed to even get into a Non-ABA law school once I finish my undergrad.

Lost and scared, but hopeful

Tom

Edited to restate my LSAT expectations/goals

[phillywc]

Your story is very unique, I would edit out personal details such as exact time of service (over 5 years would do), name of the school, and things of that nature.

You should have a few goals:

1.) See if you can get retroactive withdrawls from some of those Fs. If you have medical/personal reasons, schools may do it.
2.) If you can't, get that GPA above 2.0. Very, very important. The higher the better.
3.) Kill the LSAT. I'm talking 171+

Northwestern and Georgetown may be within your reach. ED UVA is not impossible, but is quite unlikely.

You have an interesting story. I wish you good luck and thanks for your service.

EDIT: Just realized you are using your real name. Do NOT do that. Ask a mod to change it for you, i'm sure they would be happy to do so.

[TheSpanishMain]

You'd be a pretty extreme splitter, even though you have a compelling story about your low LSAC GPA. Have you looked into trying to get those grades retroactively expunged? It's worth a shot, anyway. Be careful about anticipating your LSAT score before you even take a prep test. 170 is like the top 1% of test takers. That's not something you can bank on just because you're sharp or a good test taker. Take a practice test under timed conditions and see how you do. If you really blow the LSAT up, you might have a shot at some of the splitter friendly schools.

You can almost certainly get into A law school. The question is whether or not that law school will be worth attending. There's a good chance that there may be no way to make this feasible, sadly. What do you want to do with a law degree?

[CanadianWolf]

Many law schools will accept you; all law schools will accept your application & fee.

[bombaysippin]

Okay well seeing how your gpa is low, you'll definitely need a high lsat. No matter what you'll be a splitter. First thing to do is take a timed test and see where your diagnostic is.

All the other stuff you talk about can make an interesting personal statement and/or possibly diversity statement if you spin it the right way. With your experience as a vet you'll get somewhat of a boost in admissions, but like I said before you'll still need a killer LSAT.

ETA: oops scooped and didn't see haha, but yea advice is what everyone else said too.

[isuperserial]

Good afternoon everyone,

Just introducing myself as a possible Law School Applicant in a few years. I am trying to finish my undergraduate degree, I am a junior at Thomas Edison State College.
SGT US Army disabled/retired veteran, 7 years service
MOS: 25S7E1C, Satcom maintainer, controller, planner.
Currently working as a contractor. Satcom Engineer/SME in Maryland.

I have a distinct feeling in my gut that I will never be accepted to law school, but am hopeful regardless.
I am scared that I am wasting my time trying to obtain a dream to study and work in law based on horrible decision making of mine between the years of 2000 and 2003. Between those years I have 40 semester hours of F grades as well as 26 semester hours of decent/ok grades, putting my overall undergrad GPA at a whopping 1.0 for those years.

Starting back in to school again last year at Thomas Edison, I have only taken 1 class, but am enrolled full time now with approx 56SH remaining for my BS-EET due to a bunch of credit being given for my military experience, AP courses from high school, transfer of grades from aforementioned years 2000-2003. Unfortunately those credits given have no grades applied just credit given (I am pretty sure this isn't calculated in your LSAC GPA).

There is a long story as to my failure in college between the years of 2000-2003, mostly involving Depression/fooling my parents/homelessness/being completely retarded and never withdrawing from a course I was failing. Those are VERY dark years in my life that I barely remember and really wish I could leave behind me, but sadly I cannot. I can say that I finally buckled down and started working full time; eventually joining the Army and making something of my life, getting mental health help/meds/counseling. I am a changed man now as apposed to the boy I was 14 years ago.

Looking at the math, even if my next 56 SH of undergrad are 4.0, my undergraduate LSAC GPA would only be a 2.34.
I have not taken a practice LSAT yet, but can honestly say that I am 170+ capable with applied studying and preparation, maybe even 175+ with my aptitude for reasoning and logical problems, but who knows until I take the test right?

I know my chances of getting into law school are slim to none with my past being what it is, but if anyone here has any suggestions, words of advice or guidance on what my path should be over the next 2 years before applying to law school, please let me know. Am I a lost cause? Am I wasting my time on a dream that is unobtainable because of a dark life that happened a decade ago? I have sugar plum dreams of attending a T14 school, but based on my GPA alone, I think I would be hard pressed to even get into a Non-ABA law school once I finish my undergrad.

Lost and scared, but hopeful

Tom

Congratulations on starting down a brighter path in your life. That's definitely commendable.

That being said, I'm dubious about your claims. The very fact that you think you can get a 175 before you have even begun studying is absolutely insane. "I haven't ever played baseball but I think with preparation and my physical aptitude, I am capable of hitting the ball out of Fenway." Is this a rational claim? I'm not saying you can't do it, but have reasonable expectations for yourself. The reason people take diagnostic tests is so that they can figure out where they stand in relation to the test. You might be a smart guy, but figure out where you stand before you make claims like this.

I don't know if you're a lost cause or not. I think that if you truly wanted to, you could get 4.0s for the rest of college and then study for the LSAT and get a 180. Then with your military background and a bitching personal statement, probably get into a decent school. But here's the thing, those are a LOT of maybes with not a lot of history to back it up. You would probably have an easier time getting into another field that isn't so numbers based.

I would only say try to go to law school if you find it your life's passion and you think you would be miserable doing anything else. If it is anything less than your number one priority in life, then do yourself a favor and pursue something else.

[Naja]

Thanks for the replies, I will be working to keep my grades at B+ or higher for the rest of my time in college while finishing my undergrad.
Who is a mod that is capable of name changing?

I would be giving up a 100k a year job to go back to law school, but to answer the question as to why I wish to study law?
I have always wanted to be a litigator defending clients against wrongful accusation or rooting out corruption within any particular system through a class action law suit. I guess I am strange in finding litigation and law so appealing to my senses. My interest in intellectual property law is also very peaked since I started researching the different specialties in law.

It is still a learning experience for me, trying to learn some of the lingo used here and in the law community but I feel very strongly that I would be much happier making less with more debt studying and practicing law and quite possibly helping people in the long term, than rotting away as an engineer.

[Nova]

Welcome to TLS. Its great you found these forums 2 years before you apply.

Pretty much every law school from WUSTL down will strongly consider your app if you hit their lsat median.

There are also a few T14s you could get into with the right LSAT.

A few key sites:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/
http://mylsn.info/

[isuperserial]

Thanks for the replies, I will be working to keep my grades at B+ or higher for the rest of my time in college while finishing my undergrad.
Who is a mod that is capable of name changing?

I would be giving up a 100k a year job to go back to law school, but to answer the question as to why I wish to study law?
I have always wanted to be a litigator defending clients against wrongful accusation or rooting out corruption within any particular system through a class action law suit. I guess I am strange in finding litigation and law so appealing to my senses. My interest in intellectual property law is also very peaked since I started researching the different specialties in law.

It is still a learning experience for me, trying to learn some of the lingo used here and in the law community but I feel very strongly that I would be much happier making less with more debt studying and practicing law and quite possibly helping people in the long term, than rotting away as an engineer.

Do not leave a 100k job to go to law school unless you get into at top 14 school. I cannot advise you to do this, I'm sorry.

[Nova]

Who is a mod that is capable of name changing?

you could request it here http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... start=6325

or PM Slack or Nony
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/m ... le&u=88102
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/m ... e&u=103301

[McAvoy]

Thanks for the replies, I will be working to keep my grades at B+ or higher for the rest of my time in college while finishing my undergrad.
Who is a mod that is capable of name changing?

I would be giving up a 100k a year job to go back to law school, but to answer the question as to why I wish to study law?
I have always wanted to be a litigator defending clients against wrongful accusation or rooting out corruption within any particular system through a class action law suit. I guess I am strange in finding litigation and law so appealing to my senses. My interest in intellectual property law is also very peaked since I started researching the different specialties in law.

It is still a learning experience for me, trying to learn some of the lingo used here and in the law community but I feel very strongly that I would be much happier making less with more debt studying and practicing law and quite possibly helping people in the long term, than rotting away as an engineer.

Do not leave a 100k job to go to law school.

Fixed it for you.

[Naja]

Fixed what?

[Nova]

Will edited ISS's quote to say what he thinks it should say. he "fixed it for him".

& I disagree with both of them. If youre willing to take a pay cut to do something you think will lead to a more fulfilling life, more power to you.

[TheSpanishMain]

He edited the post that said "don't leave a 100k a year job to go to law school unless you get into a T14" to "don't leave a 100k a year job to go to law school, period." As in, you shouldn't go.

I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but I would say that the scenarios in which it would make sense for you to go are vastly outnumbered by the scenarios in which it would be a huge mistake. It's not impossible, but the odds are against you.

Are you Post 9/11 GI Bill eligible? Have you used it already?

[chneyo]

...

[McAvoy]

It's unreasonable to leave that job for anything less than the holy trinity, and with your GPA, you're not going to the holy trinity.

Whatever you do, don't leave this job. This might be one of the few times where a part time program could make sense, though (and pretty much any program will admit you with a 170+).

If law is sincerely what you want to do, you are not terribly ambitious/concerned with prestige (unlike this board) and you're sincerely going to make 100+K per year during, attending a non-peer school part time wouldn't be the worst option. It's going to be expensive, and you're going to take a big pay cut after graduating, but you wouldn't be in an awful situation, and you could do what you (hopefully) love. Just, really, don't leave that job.

[Naja]

Thanks again for the clarification and opinions.

I guess you could say that money is definitely not everything, and the pay cap for my profession is not very far past what I am making now, realistically without getting some sunshiningoutmyass executive position. The pay "potential" seems higher in law, but that is very much secondary to my need to do something that I don't hate for the rest of my life.

[Nova]

my need to do something that I don't hate for the rest of my life.

how unreasonable of you

[McAvoy]

But what reason do you have to think you'll hate being a lawyer less?

Money is certainly not everything, for me personally, it's not really on my radar. What should be on your radar, more, is comfort and security; you may dislike your job, but a large portion of lawyers hate their job, and about a third of the profession develops a drinking problem (neither are (totally) hearsay, google it).

To go to, say, Cornell at sticker, you're giving up 300k to pay 300k for a 60% shot of being able to get a job that will pay off your debt. That's a pretty big gamble for a career change that you might not like.

But this is all really hypothetical, still -- go take that test, and good luck!

[Nova]

But what reason do you have to think you'll hate being a lawyer less?

....a large portion of lawyers hate their job

....a career change that you might not like.

This is definitely a legit consideration.

It seems many people who go to law school only have an abstract idea of what practicing law is.

& with the way the market is, the odds of landing a job in a practice area you desire are much much slimmer than your odds of practicing law generally.

[isuperserial]

But what reason do you have to think you'll hate being a lawyer less?

....a large portion of lawyers hate their job

....a career change that you might not like.

This is definitely a legit consideration.

It seems many people who go to law school only have an abstract idea of what practicing law is.

& with the way the market is, the odds of landing a job in a practice area you desire are much much slimmer than your odds of practicing law generally.

Maybe it would be advisable to take an internship at his local prosecutors or public defender's office then? He could do it once or twice a week for a couple months and see if the law is what he imagined it would be. Obviously thats not representative of the entire field, but it's a start, and they give out those internships like free samples at Costco.

[cron1834]

OP, is there a way to maximize the # of credits you take over the next two years without breaking the bank? My school capped tuition at a certain figure once you exceeded a credit threshold in any given semester. If you can take as many credits as possible and if they all figure into calculating the LSAC uGPA, that might be useful if a) it won't leave you broke and if b) you can swing it grade-wise.

For the group - is this pointless? Is there a meaningful difference between a 2.5 and a 2.1 (for example)? MyLSN seems to suggest that anyone with a pulse and a 171 can get into NU and WUSTL, but these GPAs are freaky-low (small sample).

[Naja]

A little more insight into my current situation, I work full time, and travel outside of the state between 10-20% of the year. Taking 9-12 credits per semester is pushing the limit in conjunction with my current life/job. I have the P911GI Bill paying for my undergrad. I will have approx12-18 months of GI Bill left over when i finish my degree to apply to graduate school/law school.

[cron1834]

Never mind my suggestion, then

[Nova]

Maybe it would be advisable to take an internship at his local prosecutors or public defender's office then? He could do it once or twice a week for a couple months and see if the law is what he imagined it would be. Obviously thats not representative of the entire field, but it's a start, and they give out those internships like free samples at Costco.

probably a good idea for almost all 0Ls who haven't worked at a firm or in a court house before.