Really starting to reflect on things and need advice? Forum
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- Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:18 pm
Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
I took the LSAT in October, and got a 154. I guess at the time I somehow thought that was "okay", even though I have the worst GPA in the entire world. I'm a 2.68 right now (and that's higher than when LSAC calculated it, last fall). Not that any school cares, but they are all science grades (double major in biology and psych).
I applied. And I applied. And I applied my brains out. Total, I've applied to 30 (yes, I had fee waivers or it would be even more ludicrous). 2 of which I don't count, because I don't have C&F court dockets that don't exist that they need.
I've been accepted at 11, and have a handful of waitlists and denials. At the 11, 10 have given me anywhere from a 1/4 to 3/4 ride. These are all tier 3 and tier 4.
I graduate from college this summer. I'm taking 20 credits right now. All chemistry, physics and biology and lots of labs. Not because I want to, I have to. I'm tired, and I literally am so busy I can barely get my FAFSA done, make a plan to see the schools I got in.
I'm starting to wonder...I only studied for the LSAT for a month, and I scored higher than everyone I took it with (my pre law fraternity). Could I have done much better if I'd taken it NOT during the semester, NOT working two jobs, NOT studying for just a month?
I was dead set on going this fall, and now I wonder if I'm selling myself short. My mom is like "just go, run with what you got. You got in!" And I understand where she's coming from, I'm just wondering, if I take a year off and retake in June (and then again in maybe October), is it wiser?
I'm wondering if this is just fear of leaving my hometown kicking in. Fear of the unknown. I stayed here for undergrad. I want out, but I'm scared. What's the alternative? Stay here for an extra year? Work for my parents business? Live with my parents (a dad whose been very abusive) and 5 siblings? Tell everyone I know that I decided "not to go this year"?
I live in the middle of nowhere--we don't have have LSAT prep courses here, so what if I only score like 3 points better?
I'm really torn. I need advice.
I applied. And I applied. And I applied my brains out. Total, I've applied to 30 (yes, I had fee waivers or it would be even more ludicrous). 2 of which I don't count, because I don't have C&F court dockets that don't exist that they need.
I've been accepted at 11, and have a handful of waitlists and denials. At the 11, 10 have given me anywhere from a 1/4 to 3/4 ride. These are all tier 3 and tier 4.
I graduate from college this summer. I'm taking 20 credits right now. All chemistry, physics and biology and lots of labs. Not because I want to, I have to. I'm tired, and I literally am so busy I can barely get my FAFSA done, make a plan to see the schools I got in.
I'm starting to wonder...I only studied for the LSAT for a month, and I scored higher than everyone I took it with (my pre law fraternity). Could I have done much better if I'd taken it NOT during the semester, NOT working two jobs, NOT studying for just a month?
I was dead set on going this fall, and now I wonder if I'm selling myself short. My mom is like "just go, run with what you got. You got in!" And I understand where she's coming from, I'm just wondering, if I take a year off and retake in June (and then again in maybe October), is it wiser?
I'm wondering if this is just fear of leaving my hometown kicking in. Fear of the unknown. I stayed here for undergrad. I want out, but I'm scared. What's the alternative? Stay here for an extra year? Work for my parents business? Live with my parents (a dad whose been very abusive) and 5 siblings? Tell everyone I know that I decided "not to go this year"?
I live in the middle of nowhere--we don't have have LSAT prep courses here, so what if I only score like 3 points better?
I'm really torn. I need advice.
- ScottRiqui
- Posts: 3633
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:09 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Definitely retake; it's the last thing about how schools will see you that you still have a chance to change (short of going into the workforce and accumulating a couple years of experience).
If you can devote the time and energy to your prep, I don't think the lack of LSAT courses in your area will really matter - there are several great books out there for the LSAT, all of the prior tests are available for you to practice with, and you can get all sorts of help here.
Going to a T3/T4 with any kind of debt may put you in a bad position upon graduation, since you're not likely to get a job that will pay off the debt you'll have.
Your uGPA will be an obstacle, but with a high-enough LSAT, even some worthwhile schools will forgive a LOT when it comes to GPA. Even if you just got into the 160s, I bet you'd see a lot more (and better) doors opened to you.
If you can devote the time and energy to your prep, I don't think the lack of LSAT courses in your area will really matter - there are several great books out there for the LSAT, all of the prior tests are available for you to practice with, and you can get all sorts of help here.
Going to a T3/T4 with any kind of debt may put you in a bad position upon graduation, since you're not likely to get a job that will pay off the debt you'll have.
Your uGPA will be an obstacle, but with a high-enough LSAT, even some worthwhile schools will forgive a LOT when it comes to GPA. Even if you just got into the 160s, I bet you'd see a lot more (and better) doors opened to you.
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- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:10 am
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
I'm not in the same situation as you GPA wise, but I'm in the same situation where the family is trying to egg me on to get into law school.
I'm not an expert on how sub 2.x GPA's affect your admissions prospects because I hardly check this section, but seeing as you only studied a month, like me, and scored a less than adequate score for your goals, like me: RETAKE THE TEST.
Work for a year, network while crazy so you can land a decent paying job for a year to take care of yourself for a year, and study & PT so you can make a better score. I'd have to assume you're gonna need a much higher score to offset the GPA, but it's possible because you hardly studied for the first one.
But there's nothing wrong with taking a year off to study and work. A lot of people at top ranked schools do so, and there are some schools, like Northwestern that actually prefer applicants have a year or so of work experience. I know family's hard to disagree with, but you're an adult, and every decision you make from now on affects you for the rest of your life. They want what's best for you, but they may not know what's best for you, and at the end of the day, you're the one that's going to have to live with the consequences.
I'm not an expert on how sub 2.x GPA's affect your admissions prospects because I hardly check this section, but seeing as you only studied a month, like me, and scored a less than adequate score for your goals, like me: RETAKE THE TEST.
Work for a year, network while crazy so you can land a decent paying job for a year to take care of yourself for a year, and study & PT so you can make a better score. I'd have to assume you're gonna need a much higher score to offset the GPA, but it's possible because you hardly studied for the first one.
But there's nothing wrong with taking a year off to study and work. A lot of people at top ranked schools do so, and there are some schools, like Northwestern that actually prefer applicants have a year or so of work experience. I know family's hard to disagree with, but you're an adult, and every decision you make from now on affects you for the rest of your life. They want what's best for you, but they may not know what's best for you, and at the end of the day, you're the one that's going to have to live with the consequences.
- scoobysnax
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:51 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Retake. Not having to worry about the semester helps A LOT. I studied 1.5 months over winter break and PTed 165+. Retook and studied during the summer, and scored 170+. A month with school and a month completely devoted to LSAT makes a HUGE difference.
- Savage13
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:06 am
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
You have to retake, even if you have to sit out a cycle and do nothing but LSAT prep. It is that important. I have a GPA worse than yours and I have acceptances at Texas, WUSTL, and a number of other T1 schools some with scholarships up to 80%. I'm still waiting on Northwestern, who last year took Splitters with GPAs as low as 2.2 and 2.3. It's hard to come to terms with the fact that this test is more important than the years of work you put into your undergraduate education, but that's the reality. The test is learnable. Realize that you are at square one and put in the time and work to get to 170+.
Last edited by Savage13 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Very true. Also, I just want to input: the family doesn't really want me to go. Mom is supportive, and definitely thinks that 154 is the best I'll do. My dad on the other hand, doesn't want me to go to law school. Period. I hear daily that "I'm not gonna make it" and I "just wanna be a professional student" and "he's somehow going to have to pay for it."El Principe wrote: But there's nothing wrong with taking a year off to study and work. A lot of people at top ranked schools do so, and there are some schools, like Northwestern that actually prefer applicants have a year or so of work experience. I know family's hard to disagree with, but you're an adult, and every decision you make from now on affects you for the rest of your life. They want what's best for you, but they may not know what's best for you, and at the end of the day, you're the one that's going to have to live with the consequences.
Technically, if I take a year off (to apply again in October), I could indeed jack the GPA up. Your grades up until you "graduate" count--so if I took the year off, I wouldn't graduate until December, to leave that transcript open. And I could do what I did last summer--glut myself on community college online classes over the summer and fall, and reasonably bring my GPA to a 2.80 by the next admissions cycle. LSAC doesn't care where those grades came from, just what they were.
Also, from the financial aspect..I have a car payment. I had a clunker, that wasn't running anymore, and kind of HAD to have a newer car. My parents were kind enough to co sign, but those payments are mine for years to come. If I didn't go this year, that gives me a year of payments to check off, without not having an income.
I'm really torn. I'm afraid some of this is just fear of change. I'm at least going to go look at the schools I've been accepted to (I really wanted in vermont for their environmental program, and I got in) for spring break.
It's just a mess.
- Savage13
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:06 am
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Honestly, the GPA doesn't even matter at this point. A 2.8 and a 2.6 are not looked at much differently. When you are that low, it is all about LSAT. You would be much better off not wasting your time taking community college classes and just study for the retake.Progress01 wrote:Very true. Also, I just want to input: the family doesn't really want me to go. Mom is supportive, and definitely thinks that 154 is the best I'll do. My dad on the other hand, doesn't want me to go to law school. Period. I hear daily that "I'm not gonna make it" and I "just wanna be a professional student" and "he's somehow going to have to pay for it."El Principe wrote: But there's nothing wrong with taking a year off to study and work. A lot of people at top ranked schools do so, and there are some schools, like Northwestern that actually prefer applicants have a year or so of work experience. I know family's hard to disagree with, but you're an adult, and every decision you make from now on affects you for the rest of your life. They want what's best for you, but they may not know what's best for you, and at the end of the day, you're the one that's going to have to live with the consequences.
Technically, if I take a year off (to apply again in October), I could indeed jack the GPA up. Your grades up until you "graduate" count--so if I took the year off, I wouldn't graduate until December, to leave that transcript open. And I could do what I did last summer--glut myself on community college online classes over the summer and fall, and reasonably bring my GPA to a 2.80 by the next admissions cycle. LSAC doesn't care where those grades came from, just what they were.
Also, from the financial aspect..I have a car payment. I had a clunker, that wasn't running anymore, and kind of HAD to have a newer car. My parents were kind enough to co sign, but those payments are mine for years to come. If I didn't go this year, that gives me a year of payments to check off, without not having an income.
I'm really torn. I'm afraid some of this is just fear of change. I'm at least going to go look at the schools I've been accepted to (I really wanted in vermont for their environmental program, and I got in) for spring break.
It's just a mess.
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- Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:48 am
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
In the long run, moving up a tier -- or two -- of law schools is worth so much in money, networking, and opportunities that taking a year off could be a very wise move.
You should be able to significantly improve your score with self-study and asking questions here. Just being able to concentrate on test prep and not being exhausted should make a big difference. I agree with Savage13 that putting your energy into more classes is probably not worth it -- studying for the LSAT is.
There are some amazing LSAT prep books out these days. There are also lots of free, excellent materials like Graeme's test explanations at LSATHacks and the 7sage games videos, which are stunningly awesome.
You also could take an online live course (Blueprint, Manhattan, and others have them) or a video course (7sage, Blueprint, Manhattan, etc. have them.) 7sage has great prices and top-notch materials, if their games videos are any indication of the rest of the course.
I wish there were a way to get you away from your very abusive dad for the year. It's really hard to think straight or have the confidence to make scary new plans when someone is yelling at you and putting you down (or whatever he's doing). Living at home and working for the family business would be rough in that regard. On the other hand, you may want to live at home until October so you can study with less need to make money.
Good luck!
You should be able to significantly improve your score with self-study and asking questions here. Just being able to concentrate on test prep and not being exhausted should make a big difference. I agree with Savage13 that putting your energy into more classes is probably not worth it -- studying for the LSAT is.
There are some amazing LSAT prep books out these days. There are also lots of free, excellent materials like Graeme's test explanations at LSATHacks and the 7sage games videos, which are stunningly awesome.
You also could take an online live course (Blueprint, Manhattan, and others have them) or a video course (7sage, Blueprint, Manhattan, etc. have them.) 7sage has great prices and top-notch materials, if their games videos are any indication of the rest of the course.
I wish there were a way to get you away from your very abusive dad for the year. It's really hard to think straight or have the confidence to make scary new plans when someone is yelling at you and putting you down (or whatever he's doing). Living at home and working for the family business would be rough in that regard. On the other hand, you may want to live at home until October so you can study with less need to make money.
Good luck!
Last edited by LauraS on Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Study until you can hit 175 on practice tests regularly. Apply to Northwestern. T14 + science background makes you a decent candidate for IP (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but i would still not go unless it was to a T14. The LSAT is not a test of intelligence. It is a test of your ability to take standardized tests. Nobody's theoretical maximum is 154. I went from 162 to 173 while working 50+ hours a week. You should be able to make an even bigger improvement if you really put time and effort into it.Progress01 wrote:I took the LSAT in October, and got a 154. I guess at the time I somehow thought that was "okay", even though I have the worst GPA in the entire world. I'm a 2.68 right now (and that's higher than when LSAC calculated it, last fall). Not that any school cares, but they are all science grades (double major in biology and psych).
I applied. And I applied. And I applied my brains out. Total, I've applied to 30 (yes, I had fee waivers or it would be even more ludicrous). 2 of which I don't count, because I don't have C&F court dockets that don't exist that they need.
I've been accepted at 11, and have a handful of waitlists and denials. At the 11, 10 have given me anywhere from a 1/4 to 3/4 ride. These are all tier 3 and tier 4.
I graduate from college this summer. I'm taking 20 credits right now. All chemistry, physics and biology and lots of labs. Not because I want to, I have to. I'm tired, and I literally am so busy I can barely get my FAFSA done, make a plan to see the schools I got in.
I'm starting to wonder...I only studied for the LSAT for a month, and I scored higher than everyone I took it with (my pre law fraternity). Could I have done much better if I'd taken it NOT during the semester, NOT working two jobs, NOT studying for just a month?
I was dead set on going this fall, and now I wonder if I'm selling myself short. My mom is like "just go, run with what you got. You got in!" And I understand where she's coming from, I'm just wondering, if I take a year off and retake in June (and then again in maybe October), is it wiser?
I'm wondering if this is just fear of leaving my hometown kicking in. Fear of the unknown. I stayed here for undergrad. I want out, but I'm scared. What's the alternative? Stay here for an extra year? Work for my parents business? Live with my parents (a dad whose been very abusive) and 5 siblings? Tell everyone I know that I decided "not to go this year"?
I live in the middle of nowhere--we don't have have LSAT prep courses here, so what if I only score like 3 points better?
I'm really torn. I need advice.
Also the highest scorer in your prelaw frat was a 154? You should hang out with more serious people. Hanging out with slackers can make even the smartest people lazy and stupid. I know because I fell into the same trap.
For god's sake do not go to anything that would admit you with a 2.8 GPA and a 154 LSAT. you would literally be in worse financial shape than a homeless person because you will end up unemployed and in substantial debt.
inb4 0L; this is common sense stuff.
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- Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:18 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
I don't see myself hitting 175, ever. 160s? It could definitely happen.dabigchina wrote: Study until you can hit 175 on practice tests regularly.
And yes, the pre law fraternity they were all at the 150 mark, and two elected to retake and only improved by 2 points. I was told by our president of the club that our university's average LSAT score is 149.
To prep for the October, I was taking timed prep tests every couple days, and timed sections of my weak area (cough: logic games) in between classes to whip out of my backback. I also took 22 credits last fall, and finished the semester with the highest semester gpa I've EVER had. I had/have the logic games bible (and I think the reasoning one as well? I don't know, the green and blue ones).
My diagnostic last August, with strep throat, sitting in an airplane on the way to a funeral after summer school was a 149/150 timed (I don't remember which, but it's in a thread here somewhere). So I'm not sure if that's a really good thing or a really bad thing it only came up 4 points on the actual test, after a month of drilling.
On the flip side, at least two of the scholarship offers I've received at schools are very very decent--The GPA stipulations and statistics from years past make it feasible for me to keep the scholarship for all three years, and graduate with very little debt. One of those schools is about 20 minutes from my grandparents, who are in their late 80s and it would be really nice to spend more time with them before they pass.
That being said, my other reservation about waiting a year is I don't know if I could stand living in this town, for another year. Especially with my dad whispering in my ear how I'm not cut out for law school, and I'm going to fall short.
I got rejected at Lewis and Clark last week. I think that's what triggered this. It's like I'm suddenly sitting here going, "What IS this?"
- WaltGrace83
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:55 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
PM sent to you!
EDIT: I will say that I literally am taking off life from December 2013 to June 2014. I graduated school in December and my job won't start until July. I am filling that time with JUST the LSAT. If you are able to do so, go all in man! Why is this not crazy? Getting even 2 or 3 points more on an LSAT could be the difference between getting accepted and getting a full ride (200k+). No one in my family understands. I get questioned every single fucking day, "why aren't you going to school in the Fall? I bet you'd do great if you took it tomorrow! Why can't you go to [local TTT], etc." Just remember, no one out in the "real world" knows the craziness of the legal market now. If I hadn't found TLS, I would be at a TTT at sticker price.
You guys seriously saved my life. I am not even exaggerating.
EDIT: I will say that I literally am taking off life from December 2013 to June 2014. I graduated school in December and my job won't start until July. I am filling that time with JUST the LSAT. If you are able to do so, go all in man! Why is this not crazy? Getting even 2 or 3 points more on an LSAT could be the difference between getting accepted and getting a full ride (200k+). No one in my family understands. I get questioned every single fucking day, "why aren't you going to school in the Fall? I bet you'd do great if you took it tomorrow! Why can't you go to [local TTT], etc." Just remember, no one out in the "real world" knows the craziness of the legal market now. If I hadn't found TLS, I would be at a TTT at sticker price.
You guys seriously saved my life. I am not even exaggerating.
- aesth24
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:35 am
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Get your LSAT to the 166+ range and you'll be looking at several T25s that would be more than happy to take you. 170+ and you'll be looking at T14s, hell maybe even a 168+ in the next cycle. Good luck.
- Legacy Rabbit
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:52 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
I am reading these replies and no one is mentioning that OP was accepted into T3 and T4 schools with as much as 3/4 in money. Therefore his only "issue" will be graduating from a lower ranked school, but not from a lower ranked school with debt.
I will play devil's advocate because I work, and as oppose to going straight law school from undergrad I continued working, which makes it even more stressful to return to school and miss out on practicing law earlier.
The TLS mantra is retake, which is correct and the most justified; this is the best advice that is given on this site. However, finishing school and getting started in your career as soon as possible, especially when the opportunity is given, is something you really need to think long and hard about. You have already stated that you have been accepted to schools with money, decent money, you can continue your education, stay focused and study for the bar, and be ready without delay to being practicing as an attorney.
I will play devil's advocate because I work, and as oppose to going straight law school from undergrad I continued working, which makes it even more stressful to return to school and miss out on practicing law earlier.
The TLS mantra is retake, which is correct and the most justified; this is the best advice that is given on this site. However, finishing school and getting started in your career as soon as possible, especially when the opportunity is given, is something you really need to think long and hard about. You have already stated that you have been accepted to schools with money, decent money, you can continue your education, stay focused and study for the bar, and be ready without delay to being practicing as an attorney.
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- swampman
- Posts: 498
- Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:48 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Uhh, no. Even 3/4 scholarship means graduating with around 75k in debt after you factor in COL.Legacy Rabbit wrote:I am reading these replies and no one is mentioning that OP was accepted into T3 and T4 schools with as much as 3/4 in money. Therefore his only "issue" will be graduating from a lower ranked school, but not from a lower ranked school with debt.
I will play devil's advocate because I work, and as oppose to going straight law school from undergrad I continued working, which makes it even more stressful to return to school and miss out on practicing law earlier.
The TLS mantra is retake, which is correct and the most justified; this is the best advice that is given on this site. However, finishing school and getting started in your career as soon as possible, especially when the opportunity is given, is something you really need to think long and hard about. You have already stated that you have been accepted to schools with money, decent money, you can continue your education, stay focused and study for the bar, and be ready without delay to being practicing as an attorney.
75k debt and a JD from Cooley is an objectively horrible situation to be in.
- Legacy Rabbit
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:52 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Going back and forth is useless because a) OP never gave any instance of numbers. You are assuming $75k from your own background. b) going into a Cooley debate never ends. I personally know Cooley graduates who are doing very well, albeit making money in business and not practicing. But, the TLS move is why go to law school if you are not going to practice.swampman wrote:Uhh, no. Even 3/4 scholarship means graduating with around 75k in debt after you factor in COL.Legacy Rabbit wrote:I am reading these replies and no one is mentioning that OP was accepted into T3 and T4 schools with as much as 3/4 in money. Therefore his only "issue" will be graduating from a lower ranked school, but not from a lower ranked school with debt.
I will play devil's advocate because I work, and as oppose to going straight law school from undergrad I continued working, which makes it even more stressful to return to school and miss out on practicing law earlier.
The TLS mantra is retake, which is correct and the most justified; this is the best advice that is given on this site. However, finishing school and getting started in your career as soon as possible, especially when the opportunity is given, is something you really need to think long and hard about. You have already stated that you have been accepted to schools with money, decent money, you can continue your education, stay focused and study for the bar, and be ready without delay to being practicing as an attorney.
75k debt and a JD from Cooley is an objectively horrible situation to be in.
OP needs to consider all options. Studying for a higher score is ideal, but OP needs to really plan and decide if he is going to invest what is needed to increase his score an additional 15-20 points. Or, OP can move forward to school now, and take the money.
- malleus discentium
- Posts: 906
- Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 2:30 am
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
This is bad advice. There are almost no circumstances where graduating with any debt (including COL debt) from a TTT is a good idea.Legacy Rabbit wrote:Going back and forth is useless because a) OP never gave any instance of numbers. You are assuming $75k from your own background. b) going into a Cooley debate never ends. I personally know Cooley graduates who are doing very well, albeit making money in business and not practicing. But, the TLS move is why go to law school if you are not going to practice.swampman wrote:Uhh, no. Even 3/4 scholarship means graduating with around 75k in debt after you factor in COL.Legacy Rabbit wrote:I am reading these replies and no one is mentioning that OP was accepted into T3 and T4 schools with as much as 3/4 in money. Therefore his only "issue" will be graduating from a lower ranked school, but not from a lower ranked school with debt.
I will play devil's advocate because I work, and as oppose to going straight law school from undergrad I continued working, which makes it even more stressful to return to school and miss out on practicing law earlier.
The TLS mantra is retake, which is correct and the most justified; this is the best advice that is given on this site. However, finishing school and getting started in your career as soon as possible, especially when the opportunity is given, is something you really need to think long and hard about. You have already stated that you have been accepted to schools with money, decent money, you can continue your education, stay focused and study for the bar, and be ready without delay to being practicing as an attorney.
75k debt and a JD from Cooley is an objectively horrible situation to be in.
OP needs to consider all options. Studying for a higher score is ideal, but OP needs to really plan and decide if he is going to invest what is needed to increase his score an additional 15-20 points. Or, OP can move forward to school now, and take the money.
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
You've studied for one month and you think you're close to your theoretical maximum? I studied for close to a year and didn't hit 170 until about 7 months in. When I started I would get 10-12 WRONG on the logic games section. towards the end i would get -2 on average. I studied so much that I towards the end I could literally take one look at some logic game questions and immediate eliminate 2 answer choices. Studying for 1 month is not fucking acceptable on the LSAT. That's almost like cramming for 20 minutes before your final and expecting to ace it. It's not going to happen.
If there's one piece of advice you need it's this: stop aiming to best just good enough. You think going to a mediocre or bad law school is good enough given your background so that's what you aim and settle for. You think just passing your classes is good enough so you settle for Cs instead of gunning for As. You think the crap LSAT scores your frat brothers get are good enough, so you think studying for 1 month and getting a 154 is a good stopping point. If you aim for just good enough you'll only ever be just good enough or worse.
The legal industry is not one where you can be just good enough and get by. It's feast or famine. The top 10% of law students in this country get good legal jobs while the rest face underemployment and debt. By attending a school that will take your 154 you will have automatically given up your shot at joining this top 10%. The only way you'll ever make law school a worthwhile investment is by being great. Not good. But great.
If I've hurt your feelings, then good. Prove me wrong. Get back to work and start really studying for the LSAT. Or you can sit online and make weak excuses to strangers on the internet. Your call dude.
TL;DR get back to work.
If there's one piece of advice you need it's this: stop aiming to best just good enough. You think going to a mediocre or bad law school is good enough given your background so that's what you aim and settle for. You think just passing your classes is good enough so you settle for Cs instead of gunning for As. You think the crap LSAT scores your frat brothers get are good enough, so you think studying for 1 month and getting a 154 is a good stopping point. If you aim for just good enough you'll only ever be just good enough or worse.
The legal industry is not one where you can be just good enough and get by. It's feast or famine. The top 10% of law students in this country get good legal jobs while the rest face underemployment and debt. By attending a school that will take your 154 you will have automatically given up your shot at joining this top 10%. The only way you'll ever make law school a worthwhile investment is by being great. Not good. But great.
If I've hurt your feelings, then good. Prove me wrong. Get back to work and start really studying for the LSAT. Or you can sit online and make weak excuses to strangers on the internet. Your call dude.
TL;DR get back to work.
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- Posts: 1845
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
There is no circumstance where attending a TTT is a good choice. OP could spend the 3 years spent wasting his/her time at a TTT working the oilfields in North Dakota and making 80-100K a year. If OP goes to the schools he/she is in now he/she might as well spend the next 3 years mooching off his/her parents in their basement.malleus discentium wrote:This is bad advice. There areLegacy Rabbit wrote:Going back and forth is useless because a) OP never gave any instance of numbers. You are assuming $75k from your own background. b) going into a Cooley debate never ends. I personally know Cooley graduates who are doing very well, albeit making money in business and not practicing. But, the TLS move is why go to law school if you are not going to practice.swampman wrote:Uhh, no. Even 3/4 scholarship means graduating with around 75k in debt after you factor in COL.Legacy Rabbit wrote:I am reading these replies and no one is mentioning that OP was accepted into T3 and T4 schools with as much as 3/4 in money. Therefore his only "issue" will be graduating from a lower ranked school, but not from a lower ranked school with debt.
I will play devil's advocate because I work, and as oppose to going straight law school from undergrad I continued working, which makes it even more stressful to return to school and miss out on practicing law earlier.
The TLS mantra is retake, which is correct and the most justified; this is the best advice that is given on this site. However, finishing school and getting started in your career as soon as possible, especially when the opportunity is given, is something you really need to think long and hard about. You have already stated that you have been accepted to schools with money, decent money, you can continue your education, stay focused and study for the bar, and be ready without delay to being practicing as an attorney.
75k debt and a JD from Cooley is an objectively horrible situation to be in.
OP needs to consider all options. Studying for a higher score is ideal, but OP needs to really plan and decide if he is going to invest what is needed to increase his score an additional 15-20 points. Or, OP can move forward to school now, and take the money.almostno circumstances where graduating with any debt (including COL debt) from a TTT is a good idea.
- WaltGrace83
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:55 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
DEFINITELY not true. Going to a regional TTT in an small/unsaturated market with a full ride can be a great choice. For example, I have a friend who got a full ride + living stipend to the local TTT and wants to stay here for the rest of his life. In my area, there are only two law schools - one that is a T25 school that places all over the country and this TTT that places basically only in my city. Perfectly fine choice. Either way, this is besides the point.dabigchina wrote:
There is no circumstance where attending a TTT is a good choice. OP could spend the 3 years spent wasting his/her time at a TTT working the oilfields in North Dakota and making 80-100K a year. If OP goes to the schools he/she is in now he/she might as well spend the next 3 years mooching off his/her parents in their basement.
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
This is terrible advice, which the OP and anyone in anything like the OP's position should ignore.Legacy Rabbit wrote:I am reading these replies and no one is mentioning that OP was accepted into T3 and T4 schools with as much as 3/4 in money. Therefore his only "issue" will be graduating from a lower ranked school, but not from a lower ranked school with debt.
I will play devil's advocate because I work, and as oppose to going straight law school from undergrad I continued working, which makes it even more stressful to return to school and miss out on practicing law earlier.
The TLS mantra is retake, which is correct and the most justified; this is the best advice that is given on this site. However, finishing school and getting started in your career as soon as possible, especially when the opportunity is given, is something you really need to think long and hard about. You have already stated that you have been accepted to schools with money, decent money, you can continue your education, stay focused and study for the bar, and be ready without delay to being practicing as an attorney.
It's based on the fallacy that people without significant pre-existing connections (as in a major leg up via nepotism or cronyism) to potential legal jobs have some sort of halfway decent chance of becoming lawyers if they go to low-ranked law schools. They don't.
- malleus discentium
- Posts: 906
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Anecdotes are not data and yours is uncompelling and does not dispute our point.WaltGrace83 wrote:DEFINITELY not true. Going to a regional TTT in an small/unsaturated market with a full ride can be a great choice. For example, I have a friend who got a full ride + living stipend to the local TTT and wants to stay here for the rest of his life. In my area, there are only two law schools - one that is a T25 school that places all over the country and this TTT that places basically only in my city. Perfectly fine choice. Either way, this is besides the point.dabigchina wrote:
There is no circumstance where attending a TTT is a good choice. OP could spend the 3 years spent wasting his/her time at a TTT working the oilfields in North Dakota and making 80-100K a year. If OP goes to the schools he/she is in now he/she might as well spend the next 3 years mooching off his/her parents in their basement.
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- Posts: 11453
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
OP: Your situation is complicated due to your personal situations, your poor GPA, and your current state of mind. Take a year off to work & study for an LSAT retake (even a 4 or 5 point improvement is likely to substantially change your options).
It is clear to me that you have "trust issues". This hampers the quality of advice that you will receive because typically garbage in leads to garbage out in the advising spectrum--(although, ironically, not so regarding environmental matters).
Don't be afraid to share the names of the 10 or 11 schools which have accepted you, especially those lower tier schools offering scholarships. Some of these schools may have unusually burdensome stipulations on their scholarships & some may engage in section stacking (usually those that require that scholarship retention is contingent upon remaining in the top third of one's class).
Law school is not a good option for some at a particular time due to personal factors. Working for a year or two prior to law school can yield substantial positive results. Try to stop blaming others or blaming situations for shortcomings. Accept responsibility, remove yourself from any negative environment, & gain independence by earning a living.
Some lower tier schools are worthwhile if you plan to remain in the area & the total COA is low (e.g. Montana, New Mexico).
Based on the information shared in this & prior posts, you should work, live on your own & gain a bit more confidence & maturity before entering law school, in my opinion.
It is clear to me that you have "trust issues". This hampers the quality of advice that you will receive because typically garbage in leads to garbage out in the advising spectrum--(although, ironically, not so regarding environmental matters).
Don't be afraid to share the names of the 10 or 11 schools which have accepted you, especially those lower tier schools offering scholarships. Some of these schools may have unusually burdensome stipulations on their scholarships & some may engage in section stacking (usually those that require that scholarship retention is contingent upon remaining in the top third of one's class).
Law school is not a good option for some at a particular time due to personal factors. Working for a year or two prior to law school can yield substantial positive results. Try to stop blaming others or blaming situations for shortcomings. Accept responsibility, remove yourself from any negative environment, & gain independence by earning a living.
Some lower tier schools are worthwhile if you plan to remain in the area & the total COA is low (e.g. Montana, New Mexico).
Based on the information shared in this & prior posts, you should work, live on your own & gain a bit more confidence & maturity before entering law school, in my opinion.
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- Posts: 53
- Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:18 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
You know, I do resent this a little bit. I take responsibility for my situation. And the factors that led me here. No one forced me to get Cs as a freshman, or to struggle in Organic chemistry, precalc or physics. Those were my only poor planning choices by not choosing a major I had aptitude for.CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Your situation is complicated due to your personal situations, your poor GPA, and your current state of mind. Take a year off to work & study for an LSAT retake (even a 4 or 5 point improvement is likely to substantially change your options).
It is clear to me that you have "trust issues". This hampers the quality of advice that you will receive because typically garbage in leads to garbage out in the advising spectrum--(although, ironically, not so regarding environmental matters).
Don't be afraid to share the names of the 10 or 11 schools which have accepted you, especially those lower tier schools offering scholarships. Some of these schools may have unusually burdensome stipulations on their scholarships & some may engage in section stacking (usually those that require that scholarship retention is contingent upon remaining in the top third of one's class).
Based on the information shared in this & prior posts, you should work, live on your own & gain a bit more confidence & maturity before entering law school, in my opinion.
Frankly, my fraternity I joined 2 weeks before the LSAT--not to make friends, or be with "like minded people", but rather to get one additional LOR and to have it put on the membership box on my resume in case it could give my applications one extra push. I think a 150 is unacceptable. And I think a 154 really is as well.
That being said, I feel staying here an extra year is a bad idea. Also I feel moving hours from my parents, to work a minimum wage or close to it job with two truly worthless degrees, isn't really the greatest financial move either. So it's lose-lose.
I do have trust issues, that part of your post I'll agree with. There are things that have happened to me, that I don't wish to put on the internet.
But the schools I have been accepted at shouldn't be one of them:
Maine
Vermont
U. of D.C. (No thanks)
University of Dayton
Cleveland Marshall (No thank you)
Toledo (No thanks)
Akron (you don't have to tell me, I'm running from this scholarship because I know how this works)
South Dakota (No)
Willamette
Cal Western
Pace
I applied to Pace and Vermont for their environmental programs.
Dayton holds close proximity to the grandparents.
And Maine the area just really, really appeals to me.
I'm also waitlisted at Syracuse. I was told I was waitlisted instead of flat out rejected because of the science major. Syracuse is still Tier II, and that definitely appeals to me.
I have been rejected from every other Tier II school (and okay, I only applied to 6 Tier IIs--three of which I haven't heard back from yet.)
Still waiting to hear back from Oregon, University of San Diego, and Case Western.
And no, for anyone wondering, I didn't even apply at Cooley.
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Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
Didn't mean to offend you. Nevertheless, I thought that earlier posts in a different thread discussed your legal/C&F issues which raise maturity concerns.
Also, the law schools to which you were accepted are probably not worth the time & money. Consider retaking the LSAT & reapplying next cycle.
Also, the law schools to which you were accepted are probably not worth the time & money. Consider retaking the LSAT & reapplying next cycle.
- Gooner91
- Posts: 1377
- Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:34 pm
Re: Really starting to reflect on things and need advice?
OP. I think you should probably retake. Even a score in the 160's would probably give you much better options.
You said it is feasible to keep your scholarships all three years, I would think long and hard about taking a scholarship with any stip other than "good academic standing" you really cannot know how you will do in law school.
Where do you want to work and live? If you are considering regional schools this is important. It seems on your list you have schools from different parts of the country. Are these all places you would like to live or did you just apply to a bunch of schools that might accept you?
You can find tons of help on this website about studying for the LSAT, there are quite a few guides on here from people who have scored at the very top of the test. Use the search function.
Finally, if you have not already, look at theses schools you are considering on law school transparency and see how they do in job placement. Show this information to your mother and explain to her why it is a bad idea to attend these schools. It may be possible that after that she will still attempt to pressure you to go now, in which case you need to look what is best for you, you are a big boy and can make your own decisions
, but maybe she will begin to understand a little bit better. People who are not applying or have not attended law school really may not understand how admissions work and what job prospects look like.
Good luck I hope you are able to work it out.
You said it is feasible to keep your scholarships all three years, I would think long and hard about taking a scholarship with any stip other than "good academic standing" you really cannot know how you will do in law school.
Where do you want to work and live? If you are considering regional schools this is important. It seems on your list you have schools from different parts of the country. Are these all places you would like to live or did you just apply to a bunch of schools that might accept you?
You can find tons of help on this website about studying for the LSAT, there are quite a few guides on here from people who have scored at the very top of the test. Use the search function.
Finally, if you have not already, look at theses schools you are considering on law school transparency and see how they do in job placement. Show this information to your mother and explain to her why it is a bad idea to attend these schools. It may be possible that after that she will still attempt to pressure you to go now, in which case you need to look what is best for you, you are a big boy and can make your own decisions

Good luck I hope you are able to work it out.
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