Chances of Hamilton at Columbia Forum

[BillsFan9907]

I've been playing around with the graphs at LSN, and was wondering if anyone out there has calculated the probabilities of getting a Hamilton based on a certain GPA/LSAT?

My dog in this fight is that I got at most, a 175, but probably more realistically looking at 171-173. Debating if its even worth it to retake for the sole purpose of getting some cash.

[cotiger]

I've been playing around with the graphs at LSN, and was wondering if anyone out there has calculated the probabilities of getting a Hamilton based on a certain GPA/LSAT?

My dog in this fight is that I got at most, a 175, but probably more realistically looking at 171-173. Debating if its even worth it to retake for the sole purpose of getting some cash.

If you got a 172 and have a high enough GPA to be pondering your chances at a Hamilton, it's totally worth it to retake for the extra scholly money (and chances at Yale), Hamilton or no.

This should should go in the "What are my chances?" forum, though.

[BillsFan9907]

Sure, understanding where I stand in the grand scheme of things is my underlying concern, but my question is far more general.

[Tiago Splitter]

I believe 175 is considered the magic number for the Hamilton. LSN shows 11 people getting it last year and only one was even as low as a 175. The year before shows 10 Hamilton offers, with two sub 175's but both of those were URM's, and a 175/3.9. The other 7 were above 175. The year before that shows 11 Hamiltons, 2 at 175 and the rest above. Things might be easier this cycle but they seem to want to keep the Hamilton offers to those at 175 and above.

[cotiger]

Re: Butlers and Hamiltons
1) the LSAT score floors of 176 for Hamilton and 174 for Butler are basically rock solid. There was one 175 hammy and one butler URM with a lower LSAT. So that LSAT is a prerequisite and is the key factor in receiving these fellowships. See pacifica, the top applicant of the 2012-2013 cycle, who got all of HYS, but no butler/hamilton w/ a 173.

2) GPA seems to be 3.75+ with one or two exceptions at most

3) good WE, LoRs, etc. are also necessary to distinguish yourself since there are more than 20 people with those top numbers. These factors will NOT overcompensate for lower numbers though, evidently.

4) while columbia in general privileges more rigorous/prestigious undergraduate record, I see no indication that this features even more so into named scholarship consideration

[BillsFan9907]

The above is definitely great information. We have some idea of what the necessary conditions are for a Hamilton, but exactly how many of those who meet these conditions are offered it? If, for example, we knew that even at a 180 and 4.0 the chances of getting a Hamilton were 30%, that should really cause someone to, at the very least, rethink retaking the LSAT if they are already above the medians.

[Tiago Splitter]

The above is definitely great information. We have some idea of what the necessary conditions are for a Hamilton, but exactly how many of those who meet these conditions are offered it? If, for example, we knew that even at a 180 and 4.0 the chances of getting a Hamilton were 30%, that should really cause someone to, at the very least, rethink retaking the LSAT if they are already above the medians.

On the other hand, someone just above Columbia's medians probably needs at least another point or two to get into Harvard, so a retake should still prove beneficial. In any case a retake only really makes sense at that level if you can consistently score higher on practice tests. If you have the GPA for a Hamilton and the LSAT for admission generally you'll end up with great options.

[BillsFan9907]

The above is definitely great information. We have some idea of what the necessary conditions are for a Hamilton, but exactly how many of those who meet these conditions are offered it? If, for example, we knew that even at a 180 and 4.0 the chances of getting a Hamilton were 30%, that should really cause someone to, at the very least, rethink retaking the LSAT if they are already above the medians.

On the other hand, someone just above Columbia's medians probably needs at least another point or two to get into Harvard, so a retake should still prove beneficial. In any case a retake only really makes sense at that level if you can consistently score higher on practice tests. If you have the GPA for a Hamilton and the LSAT for admission generally you'll end up with great options.

You're definitely right about that. Harvard's is one higher than Columbia's. But can we conclude, inasmuch as the Hamilton is concerned, no matter how well you do the odds are still against you?

[Tiago Splitter]

The above is definitely great information. We have some idea of what the necessary conditions are for a Hamilton, but exactly how many of those who meet these conditions are offered it? If, for example, we knew that even at a 180 and 4.0 the chances of getting a Hamilton were 30%, that should really cause someone to, at the very least, rethink retaking the LSAT if they are already above the medians.

On the other hand, someone just above Columbia's medians probably needs at least another point or two to get into Harvard, so a retake should still prove beneficial. In any case a retake only really makes sense at that level if you can consistently score higher on practice tests. If you have the GPA for a Hamilton and the LSAT for admission generally you'll end up with great options.

You're definitely right about that. Harvard's is one higher than Columbia's. But can we conclude, inasmuch as the Hamilton is concerned, no matter how well you do the odds are still against you?

I believe Harvard's LSAT median is now 2 points higher than CLS' (173 to 171.)

A quick count of LSN shows about 40 people last year with 176+ and 3.75+, and 11 of those got Hamiltons. Some of those people may have been offered the Hamilton but didn't include it in their profile. In any case the odds are far from perfect but if you have a big time GPA and a sub-175 with a legitimate belief that you can pull the LSAT up over 175 with a retake it definitely seems worth it. This is especially true if your end goal is NYC BigLaw.

[BillsFan9907]

That's definitely a very fair assessment. If you're positive that you can score big, then it doesn't hurt to take it again. The worst that can happen, assuming your certainty is warranted, is that you don't get a scholarship.

BTW how did you so quickly assess those figures? I'm guessing that there is a feature on LSN?

This is what I am seeing for median LSAT scores. Harvard 173, Columbia 172. Maybe I am missing something?

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... edian-lsat

[cotiger]

That's definitely a very fair assessment. If you're positive that you can score big, then it doesn't hurt to take it again. The worst that can happen, assuming your certainty is warranted, is that you don't get a scholarship.

BTW how did you so quickly assess those figures? I'm guessing that there is a feature on LSN?

This is what I am seeing for median LSAT scores. Harvard 173, Columbia 172. Maybe I am missing something?

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... edian-lsat

That's for the class of 2015. Here is the updated info for the class of 2016: http://web.law.columbia.edu/admissions/ ... ss-profile

[Tiago Splitter]

That's definitely a very fair assessment. If you're positive that you can score big, then it doesn't hurt to take it again. The worst that can happen, assuming your certainty is warranted, is that you don't get a scholarship.

BTW how did you so quickly assess those figures? I'm guessing that there is a feature on LSN?

This is what I am seeing for median LSAT scores. Harvard 173, Columbia 172. Maybe I am missing something?

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... edian-lsat

I went old school and just counted. Sorted on LSN by LSAT.

[BillsFan9907]

Thanks - I see what you mean.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

[BillsFan9907]

That's definitely a very fair assessment. If you're positive that you can score big, then it doesn't hurt to take it again. The worst that can happen, assuming your certainty is warranted, is that you don't get a scholarship.

BTW how did you so quickly assess those figures? I'm guessing that there is a feature on LSN?

This is what I am seeing for median LSAT scores. Harvard 173, Columbia 172. Maybe I am missing something?

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... edian-lsat

I went old school and just counted. Sorted on LSN by LSAT.

Wow, Thanks! I feel bad now, because I should have done that myself. I figured you had some sort of program to sort through it all.

[Veil of Ignorance]

The above is definitely great information. We have some idea of what the necessary conditions are for a Hamilton, but exactly how many of those who meet these conditions are offered it? If, for example, we knew that even at a 180 and 4.0 the chances of getting a Hamilton were 30%, that should really cause someone to, at the very least, rethink retaking the LSAT if they are already above the medians.

On the other hand, someone just above Columbia's medians probably needs at least another point or two to get into Harvard, so a retake should still prove beneficial. In any case a retake only really makes sense at that level if you can consistently score higher on practice tests. If you have the GPA for a Hamilton and the LSAT for admission generally you'll end up with great options.

You're definitely right about that. Harvard's is one higher than Columbia's. But can we conclude, inasmuch as the Hamilton is concerned, no matter how well you do the odds are still against you?

I believe Harvard's LSAT median is now 2 points higher than CLS' (173 to 171.)

A quick count of LSN shows about 40 people last year with 176+ and 3.75+, and 11 of those got Hamiltons. Some of those people may have been offered the Hamilton but didn't include it in their profile. In any case the odds are far from perfect but if you have a big time GPA and a sub-175 with a legitimate belief that you can pull the LSAT up over 175 with a retake it definitely seems worth it. This is especially true if your end goal is NYC BigLaw.

.