Loan default rates Forum
-
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:14 am
Loan default rates
Are loan default rates for each school posted on LST or anywhere else online?
- sinfiery
- Posts: 3310
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am
Re: Loan default rates
No, but graduate students, on avergae, have significantly lower rates of defaulting on student loans than any other category mentioned here
I do wish this information would be made public to the American people. We need people with pitchforks outside Cooley.
I do wish this information would be made public to the American people. We need people with pitchforks outside Cooley.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
I find it hard to believe that the extent of loan defaults is limited to Cooley.sinfiery wrote:No, but graduate students, on avergae, have significantly lower rates of defaulting on student loans than any other category mentioned here
I do wish this information would be made public to the American people. We need people with pitchforks outside Cooley.
Just taking a gander at the legal job postings out there for recent graduates makes it hard to believe even 50% of JD's find jobs as lawyers. I recently got a job with pay at the very low end of the pay scale, but I can count on one hand the combined number of job postings for attorneys with 0 years of experience right now in two major metropolitan areas. Now, maybe 10% of all law grads find something out of OCI, and maybe another 3-5% find jobs with firms they clerked at during law school or family connections...but I find it hard to believe that the 85% of law grads that don't fall into one of the above categories are actually finding places to work.
I wouldn't be surprised if upwards of 60% of law grads that didn't have their parents pay for law school are either a) on unemployment deferment, or b) on a PAYE or IBR plan where your payments are less than the amount of interest accruing. Only 55% of students get full-time lawyer jobs, and that's after law schools juice the numbers. I'd be willing to bet close to a third of these 55% are making so little that their PAYE payments are not enough to pay for accruing interest.
-
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:14 am
Re: Loan default rates
I'm interested to hear how law schools juice the numbers.JCougar wrote:Only 55% of students get full-time lawyer jobs, and that's after law schools juice the numbers.sinfiery wrote:No, but graduate students, on avergae, have significantly lower rates of defaulting on student loans than any other category mentioned here
I do wish this information would be made public to the American people. We need people with pitchforks outside Cooley.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
Such as lying and calling a temp job a long-term, full time job, like calling volunteer jobs funded by a school fellowship a long-term, full-time job, etc.jk148706 wrote:I'm interested to hear how law schools juice the numbers.JCougar wrote:Only 55% of students get full-time lawyer jobs, and that's after law schools juice the numbers.sinfiery wrote:No, but graduate students, on avergae, have significantly lower rates of defaulting on student loans than any other category mentioned here
I do wish this information would be made public to the American people. We need people with pitchforks outside Cooley.
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
- jingosaur
- Posts: 3188
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:33 am
Re: Loan default rates
Don't forget how a JD is advantageous to a job a Starbucks.JCougar wrote:Such as lying and calling a temp job a long-term, full time job, like calling volunteer jobs funded by a school fellowship a long-term, full-time job, etc.jk148706 wrote:I'm interested to hear how law schools juice the numbers.JCougar wrote:Only 55% of students get full-time lawyer jobs, and that's after law schools juice the numbers.sinfiery wrote:No, but graduate students, on avergae, have significantly lower rates of defaulting on student loans than any other category mentioned here
I do wish this information would be made public to the American people. We need people with pitchforks outside Cooley.
Edited so I don't misquote.
Last edited by jingosaur on Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:14 am
Re: Loan default rates
So are those "juiced" numbers what appear on LST?JCougar wrote:Such as lying and calling a temp job a long-term, full time job, like calling volunteer jobs funded by a school fellowship a long-term, full-time job, etc.jk148706 wrote:I'm interested to hear how law schools juice the numbers.JCougar wrote:Only 55% of students get full-time lawyer jobs, and that's after law schools juice the numbers.sinfiery wrote:No, but graduate students, on avergae, have significantly lower rates of defaulting on student loans than any other category mentioned here
I do wish this information would be made public to the American people. We need people with pitchforks outside Cooley.
- prezidentv8
- Posts: 2823
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am
Re: Loan default rates
IS THIS REAL LIFE
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
LST has done a lot of work in de-juicing the law school employment numbers, but in the end, these numbers come from the law schools themselves, and there's little stopping them from simply lying outright. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that about 75% of all newly minted JD's nationally are in default, unemployment deferment, or not even making big enough payments on their loans to cover accrued interest.jk148706 wrote: So are those "juiced" numbers what appear on LST?
If people think I'm being hyperbolic, try using any job search engine out there and search for "Entry-Level Associate" in a major legal market like Chicago. You'll come up with like five hits total in the last two months, with 4 of the five being 3-attorney family law firms in the suburbs that pay $40K/year at most. Given that there's thousands of grads that just passed the Illinois bar...you do the math.
- sinfiery
- Posts: 3310
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am
Re: Loan default rates
I'm not sure why you are clumping the categories. Roughly 8% are in default, potentially less as those numbers come from 2008, 2009, and 2010 I believe.
Would roughly 70% of newly minted graduates be either in unemployment deferment or on PAYE? I mean, I guess that is essentially what you are arguing. That's one scary bubble come ~20 years from now.
Would roughly 70% of newly minted graduates be either in unemployment deferment or on PAYE? I mean, I guess that is essentially what you are arguing. That's one scary bubble come ~20 years from now.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
Well, you also get 3 years of unemployment deferments, plus a 6-month grace period after you graduate. So c/o 2009 didn't even enter repayment until November, 2009, and then they get until November 2012 to defer payments because of unemployment. So unless the 8% rate you're talking about is a very recent figure, it's not going to measure the default rate very well ITE.sinfiery wrote:I'm not sure why you are clumping the categories. Roughly 8% are in default, potentially less as those numbers come from 2008, 2009, and 2010 I believe.
Would roughly 70% of newly minted graduates be either in unemployment deferment or on PAYE? I mean, I guess that is essentially what you are arguing. That's one scary bubble come ~20 years from now.
By three years out, though, a lot of those unemployed have basically resigned themselves to being bartenders or, if they were lucky, returned to their pre-law school career. Neither of which would likely pay off the accruing interest of paying sticker for law school.
Out of the handful of people I know that went to TTTs, one is now a bartender, one did doc review on and off for a year and a half before going back to his previous low-paying career, and another eventually found a $40K/year job at a shitlaw firm a year and a half after graduating (while he accrued over $20K in interest on his school loans).
I guarantee none of these people are making big enough payments on their loans to pay off the interest.
I mean, I can sometimes be a doom and gloom poster on here, but after graduating, I found out that the job market is even worse than what I expected. I know so many people screwed over by this dysfunctional pyramid scheme that is the legal education industry, I've lost count. Graduates ranging from TTTs to the bottom half of the T14.
- Hipster but Athletic
- Posts: 1993
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:15 pm
Re: Loan default rates
They're measured two years after graduation.
- Hipster but Athletic
- Posts: 1993
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:15 pm
Re: Loan default rates
And are you serious? Please also prove to me that medical schools are lying based on such awesome data as number of med school grads and Monster.com listings.JCougar wrote:LST has done a lot of work in de-juicing the law school employment numbers, but in the end, these numbers come from the law schools themselves, and there's little stopping them from simply lying outright. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that about 75% of all newly minted JD's nationally are in default, unemployment deferment, or not even making big enough payments on their loans to cover accrued interest.jk148706 wrote: So are those "juiced" numbers what appear on LST?
If people think I'm being hyperbolic, try using any job search engine out there and search for "Entry-Level Associate" in a major legal market like Chicago. You'll come up with like five hits total in the last two months, with 4 of the five being 3-attorney family law firms in the suburbs that pay $40K/year at most. Given that there's thousands of grads that just passed the Illinois bar...you do the math.
Register now!
Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.
It's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
Medical schools don't have a proven track record of being dishonest about placement statistics. Law schools have quite the opposite. They have to...nobody in their right mind would attend at the price they are charging if they knew the truth. If you don't think for a minute they're being generous when they determine which jobs are "JD required" or "JD advantage," or which jobs are actually "long-term," you, my son, are naive.Hipster but Athletic wrote: And are you serious? Please also prove to me that medical schools are lying based on such awesome data as number of med school grads and Monster.com listings.
Last edited by JCougar on Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Hipster but Athletic
- Posts: 1993
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:15 pm
Re: Loan default rates
I recognize I am naive, condescending patriarch guy. Please get me Monster.com data to verify what we already know: med schools are honest; law schools are not.JCougar wrote:Medical schools don't have a proven track record of being dishonest about placement statistics. Law schools have quite the opposite. If you don't think for a minute they're being generous when they determine which jobs are "JD required" or "JD advantage," or which jobs are actually "long-term," you, my son, are naive.Hipster but Athletic wrote: And are you serious? Please also prove to me that medical schools are lying based on such awesome data as number of med school grads and Monster.com listings.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
You don't need monster.com data to prove that. You just need to have been paying attention for the last three years. If you're actually trying to debate me on this fact that is now widespread public knowledge, I recommend a career other than law.Hipster but Athletic wrote: I recognize I am naive, condescending patriarch guy. Please get me Monster.com data to verify what we already know: med schools are honest; law schools are not.
- Hipster but Athletic
- Posts: 1993
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:15 pm
Re: Loan default rates
I know I don't need it, and I admit, I have not been paying attention. But since you cited it as being relevant data, could you please provide it for med school as well?JCougar wrote:You don't need monster.com data to prove that. You just need to have been paying attention for the last three years. If you're actually trying to debate me on this fact that is now widespread public knowledge, I recommend a career other than law.Hipster but Athletic wrote: I recognize I am naive, condescending patriarch guy. Please get me Monster.com data to verify what we already know: med schools are honest; law schools are not.
Get unlimited access to all forums and topics
Register now!
I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...
Already a member? Login
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
You don't need to cite things that are well-known public fact.Hipster but Athletic wrote: I know I don't need it, and I admit, I have not been paying attention. But since you cited it as being relevant data, could you please provide it for med school as well?
I'm guessing you are an 0L. You're thinking about law school because you "like arguing." Well, I have news for you, son. You apparently don't know anything about it.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
But just for the hell of it, here's a link to an Indeed search (an aggregator of all job websites) for "Entry Level Attorney" in the Chicago area:
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=entry+leve ... cago%2C+IL
Notice that you get only 21 results, and 75% of them are for paralegals or legal support staff. And the ones that aren't pay about $50K or less. I don't know how many thousand people just passed the Illinois bar, but the ones that didn't get Biglaw from OCI are all competing for these 4-5 jobs.
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=entry+leve ... cago%2C+IL
Notice that you get only 21 results, and 75% of them are for paralegals or legal support staff. And the ones that aren't pay about $50K or less. I don't know how many thousand people just passed the Illinois bar, but the ones that didn't get Biglaw from OCI are all competing for these 4-5 jobs.
- Hipster but Athletic
- Posts: 1993
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:15 pm
Re: Loan default rates
I get that it's a desolate market. I'm curious how bad it is for medical school grads? Please do an analogous search.JCougar wrote:But just for the hell of it, here's a link to an Indeed search (an aggregator of all job websites) for "Entry Level Attorney" in the Chicago area:
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=entry+leve ... cago%2C+IL
Notice that you get only 21 results, and 75% of them are for paralegals or legal support staff. And the ones that aren't pay about $50K or less. I don't know how many thousand people just passed the Illinois bar, but the ones that didn't get Biglaw from OCI are all competing for these 4-5 jobs.
Edit: http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=doctor&l=Chicago%2C+IL
23 results. 13 looking for administrator types...
only 10 positions in Chicago looking for medical doctors. Pretty sad state of affairs for med school students.
- cahwc12
- Posts: 942
- Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:49 pm
Re: Loan default rates
Nearly all med school graduates have jobs. The reason med school is so much more competitive than law school is because unlike law school, they only graduate a number of MDs comparable to the number of positions available.Hipster but Athletic wrote:I get that it's a desolate market. I'm curious how bad it is for medical school grads? Please do an analogous search.JCougar wrote:But just for the hell of it, here's a link to an Indeed search (an aggregator of all job websites) for "Entry Level Attorney" in the Chicago area:
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=entry+leve ... cago%2C+IL
Notice that you get only 21 results, and 75% of them are for paralegals or legal support staff. And the ones that aren't pay about $50K or less. I don't know how many thousand people just passed the Illinois bar, but the ones that didn't get Biglaw from OCI are all competing for these 4-5 jobs.
Edit: http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=doctor&l=Chicago%2C+IL
23 results. 13 looking for administrator types...
only 10 positions in Chicago looking for medical doctors. Pretty sad state of affairs for med school students.
Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.
Register now, it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
- UVAIce
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:10 pm
Re: Loan default rates
You mean they haven't been graduating enough doctors for the amount of open positions - ever. The supply of doctors has been kept artificially low for a long time and that is why there is a predicted shortage of around 90,000 physicians in the near future. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/us/sh ... d=all&_r=0
But then I'm happy to not be an MD. The system we use to create freshly minted doctors is extremely broken in my opinion, certainly more broken than the law school system.
All in all, the biggest problem with a legal education is that the cost of attending law school at sticker is just too high given the job prospects. And even if you get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, a well paying legal job, the payout isn't all that wonderful when you're making $2,500 monthly loan payments.
I'm going to work in a "smaller market" that has less than 20 SA spots in the entire city that pay a wage that makes law school a good investment. That is a problem when there are 3 law schools within an hours drive from the city that graduate around 700 law students a year. The competition for those 20 spots is going to be a lot more intense than MD positions at the local hospitals.
Tl;dr: Should have been an engineer.
But then I'm happy to not be an MD. The system we use to create freshly minted doctors is extremely broken in my opinion, certainly more broken than the law school system.
All in all, the biggest problem with a legal education is that the cost of attending law school at sticker is just too high given the job prospects. And even if you get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, a well paying legal job, the payout isn't all that wonderful when you're making $2,500 monthly loan payments.
I'm going to work in a "smaller market" that has less than 20 SA spots in the entire city that pay a wage that makes law school a good investment. That is a problem when there are 3 law schools within an hours drive from the city that graduate around 700 law students a year. The competition for those 20 spots is going to be a lot more intense than MD positions at the local hospitals.
Tl;dr: Should have been an engineer.
Last edited by UVAIce on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
- UVAIce
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:10 pm
Re: Loan default rates
But you have to admit that they are practically slaves to their occupation. Once you have one of those positions you can't stop being a doctor, unless you want to default on all those loans.cahwc12 wrote:Nearly all med school graduates have jobs. The reason med school is so much more competitive than law school is because unlike law school, they only graduate a number of MDs comparable to the number of positions available.Hipster but Athletic wrote:I get that it's a desolate market. I'm curious how bad it is for medical school grads? Please do an analogous search.JCougar wrote:But just for the hell of it, here's a link to an Indeed search (an aggregator of all job websites) for "Entry Level Attorney" in the Chicago area:
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=entry+leve ... cago%2C+IL
Notice that you get only 21 results, and 75% of them are for paralegals or legal support staff. And the ones that aren't pay about $50K or less. I don't know how many thousand people just passed the Illinois bar, but the ones that didn't get Biglaw from OCI are all competing for these 4-5 jobs.
Edit: http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=doctor&l=Chicago%2C+IL
23 results. 13 looking for administrator types...
only 10 positions in Chicago looking for medical doctors. Pretty sad state of affairs for med school students.
- JCougar
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm
Re: Loan default rates
Listen, I know you're new at this thing called "life," but MD's don't get their jobs through job search sites. They get their positions through placements. There's actually a shortage of MD's out there, so it's very easy to get a job. It's not always easy, because you still have a lot of debt and you work pretty long hours, but the bottom line is that you go to school doing what you intended on doing when you graduate.Hipster but Athletic wrote: I get that it's a desolate market. I'm curious how bad it is for medical school grads? Please do an analogous search.
Edit: http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=doctor&l=Chicago%2C+IL
23 results. 13 looking for administrator types...
only 10 positions in Chicago looking for medical doctors. Pretty sad state of affairs for med school students.
Lawyers have a similar thing called OCI, but it only places about 10% of the students into jobs. The rest are left to scratch and claw their way into the profession where there's at least two graduates for every one available job working for people like Peter Francis Geraci for $42,000/year.
- Hipster but Athletic
- Posts: 1993
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:15 pm
Re: Loan default rates
Boggles my mind that you're able to recognize that doctors do not use Indeed.com, but still think the analaous data is probative in the JD marketJCougar wrote:Listen, I know you're new at this thing called "life," but MD's don't get their jobs through job search sites. They get their positions through placements. There's actually a shortage of MD's out there, so it's very easy to get a job. It's not always easy, because you still have a lot of debt and you work pretty long hours, but the bottom line is that you go to school doing what you intended on doing when you graduate.Hipster but Athletic wrote: I get that it's a desolate market. I'm curious how bad it is for medical school grads? Please do an analogous search.
Edit: http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=doctor&l=Chicago%2C+IL
23 results. 13 looking for administrator types...
only 10 positions in Chicago looking for medical doctors. Pretty sad state of affairs for med school students.
Lawyers have a similar thing called OCI, but it only places about 10% of the students into jobs. The rest are left to scratch and claw their way into the profession where there's at least two graduates for every one available job working for people like Peter Francis Geraci for $42,000/year.
Edit to add that I have no idea why you think I'm trying to suggest that the JD market is not bad. Just was to trying to point put the absurdity of your method of demonstrating that. Also I know you're old, but try to avoid being so patronizing -- at least until you can learn the concept of a control group
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login