So who are the law grads who end up unemployed? Forum

[bdm261]

Are there any commonalities between them? My impression of the situation is that the ones who end up unemployed or in crappy non-legal jobs:

- Went to tier 3 or 4 schools in NYC, LA, or other very large U.S. cities with multiple law schools that HYS and other top schools also feed into..... or even went to tier 1 or 2 schools in highly competitive markets such as NYC (my understanding is that the tier 1 or 2's end up in "shitlaw" or doc review while the tier 3 and 4s are lucky to work at Best Buy.)

- Went to law school outside their home city/state.

- Didn't have a plan for what they wanted out of law school or just went because they didn't know what else to do.

- Were in the bottom 50% of their class.

- First in family to pursue law and don't have professional/personal connections to anyone in the legal community.

Is there any truth to this, even slightly? I'm asking because I am seriously planning to attend a law school that has zero national prestige (tier 3), however it's very well respected in my hometown (small-medium midwestern city). I also have many lawyers in the family and many family friends who are judges or lawyers.

I've gotten 2 jobs at law firms in the last few yrs in my hometown just because my last name was recognizable on a resume even though I'm certain more qualified individuals applied (I remember my first assignment at my last job was to respond to job seeking emails and they were from law grads or practicing attorneys, I was a Junior in undergrad at the time).

So, am I making a wise decision here? I was offered a scholly at the local school I applied to, I realize the curve will be tough but no matter what my first semester is essentially free.

I have a plan for my education, or at least I think I do. I want to work in criminal defense. Right now I clerk at a personal injury firm and that work is acceptable to me as well, plus I am gaining tons of experience where I work now.

Everyone at my firm congratulated me on getting accepted to the local law school... most of the attorneys at this firm graduated from there as well and even though I won't be working 1L, I am reasonably certain I can count on working here for a SA.

[dextermorgan]

Those people you mentioned are part of who ends up unemployed, but it can happen to just about anyone.

You seem to have an okay plan as long as 1) you go for cheap 2) you are okay doing small-town personal injury or whatever and 3) you are fully prepared to not be a lawyer if it doesn't work out (that could mean dropping out, that could mean working at Best Buy, etc.).

Do not go to a Tier-3 expecting that you will be at the top of your class with a biglaw offer in hand.

[bdm261]

Those people you mentioned are part of who ends up unemployed, but it can happen to just about anyone.

You seem to have an okay plan as long as 1) you go for cheap 2) you are okay doing small-town personal injury or whatever and 3) you are fully prepared to not be a lawyer if it doesn't work out (that could mean dropping out, that could mean working at Best Buy, etc.).

Do not go to a Tier-3 expecting that you will be at the top of your class with a biglaw offer in hand.

Honestly, my Plan B is journalism. It was always a career I was also interested in, I wrote for my high school and college papers and took some news-writing classes in college. I understand this career is declining as well, though...but does a law degree in any way help someone enter the journalism field?

[andythefir]

With a large asterisk that many people do everything right and still end up unemployed, I have to admit that I was stunned at how many people were completely clueless about how to get a job both at my school and in the chambers where I worked over 1L summer. Lots of people don't understand the reality of OCI and just assume they'll find something eventually be it through OCI or CDO. Some will start applying to non-OCI jobs in January when all of the good jobs are either gone or have imminent deadlines.
I know only a handful of people (including myself) that were psycho about getting a job. As in applying to 200+ positions by October, networking like their life depended on it, and thinking several moves ahead (assume firms won't bite so start applying government, assume government won't bite so start applying public interest). All of those people ended up with a 2L summer associate position.
Another component is that a lot of people choose a law school without considering geographically where they will be able to work or are completely oblivious to the jobs they choose to apply to once in that school.
To answer your question directly some people have great grades at great schools, work really hard and still get screwed. Some people have awful grades. Some people have terrible strategies on how to get a job in a geographically impossible place. But if I had to guess 1 common denominator it's that the people who don't have jobs didn't give the job search the respect it deserves.

[WhiskeynCoke]

But if I had to guess 1 common denominator it's that the people who don't have jobs didn't give the job search the respect it deserves.

This may be the wisest, nail-on-the-head statement I've ever read on TLS. People get so bogged down about schools, grades, employment statistics, and all sorts of this and that they completely forget about the most important part about finding employment: PROPERLY LOOKING FOR IT.

OP, unlike the vast majority of 0L's, you have a very rational, plausible, well thought-out plan. With your connections, scholarship, and willingness to walk away if need be, I think you'll be fine. You've definitely hedged your bets down to very low risk.

I say it's a good decision based on the info you provided.

[vanwinkle]

Are there any commonalities between them? My impression of the situation is that the ones who end up unemployed or in crappy non-legal jobs:

- Went to tier 3 or 4 schools in NYC, LA, or other very large U.S. cities with multiple law schools that HYS and other top schools also feed into..... or even went to tier 1 or 2 schools in highly competitive markets such as NYC (my understanding is that the tier 1 or 2's end up in "shitlaw" or doc review while the tier 3 and 4s are lucky to work at Best Buy.)

- Went to law school outside their home city/state.

- Didn't have a plan for what they wanted out of law school or just went because they didn't know what else to do.

- Were in the bottom 50% of their class.

- First in family to pursue law and don't have professional/personal connections to anyone in the legal community.

Is there any truth to this, even slightly?

Here's your problem: The people with the above qualities very often end up unemployed, but that doesn't mean the reverse is true. You can not be any of those things and still fail to find decent legal employment after you graduate. The job market is remarkably bad right now, and even a lot of people from Tier 1 and 2 schools end up unemployed.

Also, the "bottom 50% of their class" is a big wild card. It can happen to anyone; it could happen to you. This isn't an insult, trust me. As a 0L it's impossible to know how well you'll do going into law school. You can't count on having excellent grades, or even on not having abysmal grades; you can be at the top-ranked T1 in the area, have a plan and motivation, and know a few lawyers who might make good connections, and then flush it all away by falling in the bottom quarter of your class. One thing 0Ls often don't understand is that law school grades aren't about whether you're stupid, and plenty of smart people go to law school and do terribly.

I'm asking because I am seriously planning to attend a law school that has zero national prestige (tier 3), however it's very well respected in my hometown (small-medium midwestern city). I also have many lawyers in the family and many family friends who are judges or lawyers. I've gotten 2 jobs at law firms in the last few yrs in my hometown just because my last name was recognizable on a resume even though I'm certain more qualified individuals applied (I remember my first assignment at my last job was to respond to job seeking emails and they were from law grads or practicing attorneys, I was a Junior in undergrad at the time).

Well, at least have a head start on your classmates in the job hunt. I'd suggest you talk to as many of those judges and lawyers as you can for advice on doing well in law school; it'll not only give you extra advice, it'll also help you form connections that you can later use to find jobs.

So, am I making a wise decision here? I was offered a scholly at the local school I applied to, I realize the curve will be tough but no matter what my first semester is essentially free.

This pretty much seals it for me. If you want to work in that region, you have plenty of contacts already, and you have a good scholarship, then I think it's not a mistake to go. The thing is, it's rare for a law school applicant to have that combination of things going for them, which is why they're usually bombarded with such negativity about their future.

I'm not saying you're guaranteed to do well. There's still at least some chance you won't hack it and you'll bottom out in law school. But it sounds like you're more than willing to take the shot, and you're far more prepared than many.

[badaboom61]

I was top quarter at a T10 school, worked my ass off at OCI, hustled on the job search, sent out 400+ applications by mid September, and ended with only one offer. If that one random mailing hadn't caught the eye of that particular recruiter at that particular firm, I would probably be unemployed right now.

It didn't help me that I was K-JD, and probably not the best interviewer in the world despite all my efforts to improve, but unemployment is a real thing that can seriously happen to anyone. There doesn't seem to be any particular formula that will actually guaranty a job.

[rad lulz]

I was top quarter at a T10 school, worked my ass off at OCI, hustled on the job search, sent out 400+ applications by mid September, and ended with only one offer. If that one random mailing hadn't caught the eye of that particular recruiter at that particular firm, I would probably be unemployed right now.

It didn't help me that I was K-JD, and probably not the best interviewer in the world despite all my efforts to improve, but unemployment is a real thing that can seriously happen to anyone. There doesn't seem to be any particular formula that will actually guaranty a job.

You still have a chance to be no offered, so don't count your chickens.

[IAFG]

Can you negotiate out of the scholly stipulations?

[bdm261]

Can you negotiate out of the scholly stipulations?

Ok this might sound dumb but how do I negotiate schollys? I have a $17,500 renewable merit scholly automatically offered when I was admitted. I think it states I need to be in the top 15% to get it renewed 100% and if I'm in the top 30% I get half, anything lower I think I lose it.

Right now I applied to 6 schools and the local school sent me my first and only acceptance so far; I am expecting other decisions after Thanksgiving or even after new years. Should I wait to see where else I'm in and what they offer me so I have some leverage?

I am reasonably certain that I'll attend this school.

[IAFG]

Can you negotiate out of the scholly stipulations?

Ok this might sound dumb but how do I negotiate schollys? I have a $17,500 renewable merit scholly automatically offered when I was admitted. I think it states I need to be in the top 15% to get it renewed 100% and if I'm in the top 30% I get half, anything lower I think I lose it.

Right now I applied to 6 schools and the local school sent me my first acceptance. Should I wait to see where else I'm in and what they offer me so I have some leverage?

I am reasonably certain that I'll attend this school.

Top 15%?! That is a TERRIBLE deal. I mean, it's one thing to bet on being top half but attending on the hopes that you will stay in the top 15% is insane. Are you above both their medians? Do you have any other acceptances to negotiate with?

[Lincoln]

I was top quarter at a T10 school, worked my ass off at OCI, hustled on the job search, sent out 400+ applications by mid September, and ended with only one offer. If that one random mailing hadn't caught the eye of that particular recruiter at that particular firm, I would probably be unemployed right now.

It didn't help me that I was K-JD, and probably not the best interviewer in the world despite all my efforts to improve, but unemployment is a real thing that can seriously happen to anyone. There doesn't seem to be any particular formula that will actually guaranty a job.

I've seen some improvement on this front lately, especially on TLS, but I think a lot of people still discount the "soft" factors that play into getting a job. Based on what I've seen at my T14, people with substantive work experience who are good interviewers do infinitely better than K-JDs with good grades who aren't comfortable in interviews or similar social settings. There were multiple people with above-median (and even some with top 10% grades) in my class (of 2013) who struck out, whereas several people with worse grades, but who are older, have work experience, and are generally poised, got multiple V10 offers.

Re OP's situation, personal contacts can be very helpful, and it will be hard for anyone on this forum to accurately judge whether you will be able to leverage your contacts into a job. But be aware that it is often more difficult to use personal contacts to get a job than people think before going to school. Small firms especially are often unable to predict their hiring needs several years in advance and may not be able to give you a job upon graduation even if they are sincere when they are telling you now that they are willing to do so.

The stipulations on the scholarship are draconian. If you go, negotiate out of them. Other people will be able to point you in the direction of articles explaining how schools shaft students with scholarships and stipulations.

[09042014]

Can you negotiate out of the scholly stipulations?

Ok this might sound dumb but how do I negotiate schollys? I have a $17,500 renewable merit scholly automatically offered when I was admitted. I think it states I need to be in the top 15% to get it renewed 100% and if I'm in the top 30% I get half, anything lower I think I lose it.

Right now I applied to 6 schools and the local school sent me my first acceptance. Should I wait to see where else I'm in and what they offer me so I have some leverage?

I am reasonably certain that I'll attend this school.

Yes wait, but that is an unreasonably high standard for not losing your scholarship.

Otherwise your plan is solid. You have local connections, and low debt, you'll be fine. The real crushing part about law school is the debt you get.

[bdm261]

I was top quarter at a T10 school, worked my ass off at OCI, hustled on the job search, sent out 400+ applications by mid September, and ended with only one offer. If that one random mailing hadn't caught the eye of that particular recruiter at that particular firm, I would probably be unemployed right now.

It didn't help me that I was K-JD, and probably not the best interviewer in the world despite all my efforts to improve, but unemployment is a real thing that can seriously happen to anyone. There doesn't seem to be any particular formula that will actually guaranty a job.

I've seen some improvement on this front lately, especially on TLS, but I think a lot of people still discount the "soft" factors that play into getting a job. Based on what I've seen at my T14, people with substantive work experience who are good interviewers do infinitely better than K-JDs with good grades who aren't comfortable in interviews or similar social settings. There were multiple people with above-median (and even some with top 10% grades) in my class (of 2013) who struck out, whereas several people with worse grades, but who are older, have work experience, and are generally poised, got multiple V10 offers.

Re OP's situation, personal contacts can be very helpful, and it will be hard for anyone on this forum to accurately judge whether you will be able to leverage your contacts into a job. But be aware that it is often more difficult to use personal contacts to get a job than people think before going to school. Small firms especially are often unable to predict their hiring needs several years in advance and may not be able to give you a job upon graduation even if they are sincere when they are telling you now that they are willing to do so.

The stipulations on the scholarship are draconian. If you go, negotiate out of them. Other people will be able to point you in the direction of articles explaining how schools shaft students with scholarships and stipulations.

Oh yeah, I'm well aware of the "bait and switch" aspect of scholarships. That's why I didn't think too much of it when I saw the scholarship e-mail...I thought it was nice and all that I will have the first semester free, but only 25 students out of 165 will be keeping it, and I'd like to think I'll be one of them but so does everyone else.

[IAFG]

Also, the point above about it being harder to use contacts to get full time legal employment is a good one. I know a lot more stories of people trying to leverage connections for a job and face-planting than people who pulled it off. Some of the stories are pretty funny too, like people getting dinged by the smaller, more local firm where they had a "great connection" and thought they were guaranteed a job, but then landing Cravath.

[3ThrowAway99]

I was top quarter at a T10 school, worked my ass off at OCI, hustled on the job search, sent out 400+ applications by mid September, and ended with only one offer. If that one random mailing hadn't caught the eye of that particular recruiter at that particular firm, I would probably be unemployed right now.

It didn't help me that I was K-JD, and probably not the best interviewer in the world despite all my efforts to improve, but unemployment is a real thing that can seriously happen to anyone. There doesn't seem to be any particular formula that will actually guaranty a job.

I've seen some improvement on this front lately, especially on TLS, but I think a lot of people still discount the "soft" factors that play into getting a job. Based on what I've seen at my T14, people with substantive work experience who are good interviewers do infinitely better than K-JDs with good grades who aren't comfortable in interviews or similar social settings. There were multiple people with above-median (and even some with top 10% grades) in my class (of 2013) who struck out, whereas several people with worse grades, but who are older, have work experience, and are generally poised, got multiple V10 offers.

Re OP's situation, personal contacts can be very helpful, and it will be hard for anyone on this forum to accurately judge whether you will be able to leverage your contacts into a job. But be aware that it is often more difficult to use personal contacts to get a job than people think before going to school. Small firms especially are often unable to predict their hiring needs several years in advance and may not be able to give you a job upon graduation even if they are sincere when they are telling you now that they are willing to do so.

The stipulations on the scholarship are draconian. If you go, negotiate out of them. Other people will be able to point you in the direction of articles explaining how schools shaft students with scholarships and stipulations.

Yeah, the experience factor or connections factor can help in some cases, but it is far from a guarantee. There are plenty of people with solid work experience, solid interview skills, and strong grades at even top schools who are having a very hard time getting employment. And I think there are plenty of students with very little experience (who have relatively similar grades) who end up getting positions over those with the greater work experience.

Having work experience CAN help, but it is not something to rely on and is far from the massive boost you seem to think it is. OTOH it also depends on what the experience is--some work experience (unrelated field) can actually hurt (even if professional-level experiences), while a few years of high-level business management experience could quite possibly give the type of boost you are alluding to.

[Lincoln]

I was top quarter at a T10 school, worked my ass off at OCI, hustled on the job search, sent out 400+ applications by mid September, and ended with only one offer. If that one random mailing hadn't caught the eye of that particular recruiter at that particular firm, I would probably be unemployed right now.

It didn't help me that I was K-JD, and probably not the best interviewer in the world despite all my efforts to improve, but unemployment is a real thing that can seriously happen to anyone. There doesn't seem to be any particular formula that will actually guaranty a job.

I've seen some improvement on this front lately, especially on TLS, but I think a lot of people still discount the "soft" factors that play into getting a job. Based on what I've seen at my T14, people with substantive work experience who are good interviewers do infinitely better than K-JDs with good grades who aren't comfortable in interviews or similar social settings. There were multiple people with above-median (and even some with top 10% grades) in my class (of 2013) who struck out, whereas several people with worse grades, but who are older, have work experience, and are generally poised, got multiple V10 offers.

Re OP's situation, personal contacts can be very helpful, and it will be hard for anyone on this forum to accurately judge whether you will be able to leverage your contacts into a job. But be aware that it is often more difficult to use personal contacts to get a job than people think before going to school. Small firms especially are often unable to predict their hiring needs several years in advance and may not be able to give you a job upon graduation even if they are sincere when they are telling you now that they are willing to do so.

The stipulations on the scholarship are draconian. If you go, negotiate out of them. Other people will be able to point you in the direction of articles explaining how schools shaft students with scholarships and stipulations.

Yeah, the experience factor or connections factor can help in some cases, but it is far from a guarantee. There are plenty of people with solid work experience, solid interview skills, and strong grades at even top schools who are having a very hard time getting employment. And I think there are some with very little experience with relatively similar grades who are getting the positions.

Having work experience CAN help, but it is not something to rely on and is far from the massive boost you seem to think it is. OTOH it also depend what the experience is--some work experience (unrelated field) can actually hurt in some cases even if professional level experiences, while a few years of high-level business management experience quite possibly give the type of boost you are alluding to.

I don't disagree with you that the factors I mentioned are not a guarantee. The point I was trying to make is that they are factors. It was directly related to badaboom's situation:

It didn't help me that I was K-JD, and probably not the best interviewer in the world despite all my efforts to improve, but unemployment is a real thing that can seriously happen to anyone. There doesn't seem to be any particular formula that will actually guaranty a job.

[dextermorgan]

Can you negotiate out of the scholly stipulations?

Ok this might sound dumb but how do I negotiate schollys? I have a $17,500 renewable merit scholly automatically offered when I was admitted. I think it states I need to be in the top 15% to get it renewed 100% and if I'm in the top 30% I get half, anything lower I think I lose it.

Right now I applied to 6 schools and the local school sent me my first and only acceptance so far; I am expecting other decisions after Thanksgiving or even after new years. Should I wait to see where else I'm in and what they offer me so I have some leverage?

I am reasonably certain that I'll attend this school.

Yikes. Those are the worst scholarship terms I have ever heard. I would not go there.

[LSTfan]

.

[LSTfan]

.

[bdm261]

I remember my first assignment at my last job was to respond to job seeking emails and they were from law grads or practicing attorneys, I was a Junior in undergrad at the time.

One might think this would give an aspiring 1L pause, no?

Well I recall they were from UCLA, Georgetown and other out of state schools, none from the local school in question.

Also I think sticker price of this school in question is $68,000. My COL should be low too because I already have a house in town.

So no matter what, I'm looking at a max of $59,250 for my entire legal education. (17,500/2 = 8750 for the first semester).

[SumStalwart]

It seems like you have a pretty solid plan. Given the information that you've provided us, I think that it doesn't sound like a bad idea to attend this school. However, I agree that you should try to negotiate a better scholarship. Even though you will have a low(ish) cost of living and a low tuition debt still complicates things.

It's not the end of the world if you cannot get a better scholarship deal, but it does complicate your life more. Just wait for the other schools to decide and then you can make your decision.

Congrats on your starting opportunities!

[HoustonLawyer]

They are not intended to punish big companies merely on account of their size, nor to serve as surrogate "consumer protection" laws. Most importantly, they have never been anti-market or anti-business in their underlying conception or in their implementation.

________________________________________

SPAMMING REDACTED BY MODS

[Total Litigator]

As long as you're okay with the fact that, for the rest of your life, no one will ever be impressed by your degree outside of the local area...... That, and those scholarship stipulations are by far the worst I've ever heard of.

[bdm261]

As long as you're okay with the fact that, for the rest of your life, no one will ever be impressed by your degree outside of the local area...... That, and those scholarship stipulations are by far the worst I've ever heard of.

I'm not trying to impress anyone with my degree, I'd rather impress them with my abilities.

I'm sure that you can go to the worst law school in existence but as long as you are able to gain solid experience and prove yourself (which yeah I agree might be more difficult getting your foot in the door to begin with from a 3rd or 4th tier), it might take longer but eventually you'll be judged by what you've accomplished rather than what school gave you a piece of paper.

I have a relative who attended what is now a Tier-4 school, although it was in the 80s and he paid something like $1,500 semester (last I checked the same school charges $42,000/yr). He managed to move across the country with his law degree and tells me "no one ever asks where he went to law school."

Will I ever make $160,000 on Wall Street?...probably not, but I've come to the conclusion that in my case the local school is a better option than even going to a Tier-2 in NYC or somewhere else. I think with my local connections and prior experience I can at least count on FT J.D, bar-passage required jobs, even if I start at ~$40,000.

And yeah, the scholarship stips are brutal but even without scholarships, this law school is among one of the most affordable at sticker price. Sure $70,000 isn't cheap but it's nowhere near as bad as the T3's and T4's that leave you $200,000+ in debt.