Caliber of Undergraduate School when Looking at GPA? Forum

[carboncopyx]

Just curious--I know that law school admissions is very numbers-based, but I'm wondering to what extent admissions officers consider the caliber of the undergraduate college, as well. I have a 3.84 from a top-tier university. How that would stack up against, say, a 4.0 from University of Nowhere? Same? Worse? Hope that I did better than them on the LSAT?

[Br3v]

Just curious--I know that law school admissions is very numbers-based, but I'm wondering to what extent admissions officers consider the caliber of the undergraduate college, as well. I have a 3.84 from a top-tier university. How that would stack up against, say, a 4.0 from University of Nowhere? Same? Worse? Hope that I did better than them on the LSAT?

10/10 times the 4.0 wins. Only time it may matter is Harvard Stanford Princeton UG gpa. Even then, being that schools have to report gpas and don't get to say whether the schools were "hard" the higher gpa is preferred.
Lucky for you a 3.84 will exclude you from nowhere

[Tom Joad]

It might put you in a favorable position when applying to schools in which your GPA is over their median already, like: Columbia, NYU, Berkeley, Michigan, GULC, and Cornell.

Probably put you at a disadvantage to the 4.0 from a crappy school when applying to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Virginia, and the like.

[carboncopyx]

Ah, that's kind of a bummer... makes me half-wish I'd gone to University of Nowhere instead

[Tom Joad]

Ah, that's kind of a bummer... makes me half-wish I'd gone to University of Nowhere instead

Yeah, but then your GPA might have been even lower. Never now. It is pretty good though. Won't hold you back from anywhere.

[Br3v]

Ah, that's kind of a bummer... makes me half-wish I'd gone to University of Nowhere instead

Plus your good UG may help you land job, you have a good problem to have lol

[EvilClinton]

Undergrad does not matter unless it is HYP.

A 4.0 at a crappy state school is better than a 3.8 at a highly ranked private school in the world of law school admissions.

[carboncopyx]

Undergrad does not matter unless it is HYP.

A 4.0 at a crappy state school is better than a 3.8 at a highly ranked private school in the world of law school admissions.

... and if it is HYP? Would that actually change my 3.8 in relation to the crappy state school 4.0?

[rinkrat19]

Undergrad does not matter unless it is HYP.

A 4.0 at a crappy state school is better than a 3.8 at a highly ranked private school in the world of law school admissions.

... and if it is HYP? Would that actually change my 3.8 in relation to the crappy state school 4.0?

Probably not. But it might give you the tiebreaker over a 3.8 (other factors also being similar) from the crappy state school.

[Bildungsroman]

Probably not even if it's HYP. People just feel inclined not to make a categorical statement, so it's easy to say "oh well maybe if it's Harvard." And then some people from a given undergrad will claim to have some special knowledge of admit stats that shows they get a boost, even though there are a lot of factors unaccounted for.

[carboncopyx]

Bummer. Guess that means I really should be aiming for that 180 now, ha...

[Br3v]

Probably not even if it's HYP. People just feel inclined not to make a categorical statement, so it's easy to say "oh well maybe if it's Harvard." And then some people from a given undergrad will claim to have some special knowledge of admit stats that shows they get a boost, even though there are a lot of factors unaccounted for.

More and more this explains my thoughts

[helix23]

oft talked about subject

Will undergrad prestige matter?
How much does where one went to school for undergrad matter
How much does undergrad school matter?
does your undergrad university prestige matter?
Does your undergrad school matter? Can it help an applicant?

[Tiago Splitter]

Bummer. Guess that means I really should be aiming for that 180 now, ha...

You certainly should, but if you get a 174 you'll be above the median at every school in the country. Your GPA is already above most medians, but for those schools where it isn't you almost certainly need an median or better LSAT score. Even if HYP does give some kind of boost, I haven't seen it work magic for someone below both medians.

[hq2x]

Sorry for the thread-jack, but is a 3.84 really "good enough" for every school - including HYS? I ask because it's below all of the top-3's medians, and I am in a similar position as the OP wrt UG. For example, would a 173 be competitive at H with a 3.84 (assuming that H's median remains at a 173 for this cycle)?

Put another way: is hitting median for GPA the same as hitting median for LSAT? I've seen countless threads, HYS or otherwise, where having 1 LSAT point under the median will disqualify you unless your GPA can counterbalance it. For GPA, is it also the case that being .05 below median GPA will disqualify you?

[Tiago Splitter]

A 3.84 is good enough in the sense that if you score highly enough on the LSAT you'll get in. But you are correct in saying that a 3.84/173 isn't a lock for Harvard.

For GPA, is it also the case that being .05 below median GPA will disqualify you?

It will if your LSAT isn't good enough.

[carboncopyx]

Sorry for the thread-jack, but is a 3.84 really "good enough" for every school - including HYS? I ask because it's below all of the top-3's medians, and I am in a similar position as the OP wrt UG. For example, would a 173 be competitive at H with a 3.84 (assuming that H's median remains at a 173 for this cycle)?

I don't think a 173/3.84 will disqualify us from anywhere, nor will it make us a shoo-in for HYS, either. That would put us at above the median for Stanford, though, but I doubt anyone can predict admissions at Stanford or Yale.

[kwu]

https://career.berkeley.edu/law/lawStats.stm

HLS (Admit, 7yAVG) 172.4/3.92
CLS (Admit, 8yAVG) 171.4/3.85
NYU (Admit, 7yAVG) 171.1/3.86

http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/d ... istics.pdf
http://www.yale.edu/visvi/students/grad ... wstats.pdf

HLS (Admit, 2011 ; 2007) 174.1/3.77 ; 173.1/3.81
CLS (Admit, 2011 ; 2007) 173.2/3.73 ; 171.0/3.72
NYU (Admit, 2011 ; 2007) 173.2/3.71 ; 171.8/3.76

[carboncopyx]

Oh, that is interesting...

[IAFG]

Oh, that is interesting...

It would be a lot more interesting if it were medians rather than means.

[carboncopyx]

Well, even the difference in percentage of applicants admitted is interesting, I think. And the mean is probably not so different from the median that the evidence is rendered completely irrelevant. It is by no means definitive, but it is interesting to see.

[somewhatwayward]

I have seen the numbers for people who did their undergrads at Harvard or Stanford, and the average LSAT/GPA admitted to all the law schools is usually lower than the respective law school's medians....like, for example, admitted applicants admitted to HLS who went to H for undergrad have, on average, like a 170-171/3.7-3.8. I realize you're comparing averages and medians. But I have observed the HYP bias in action...know two non-minorities admitted for the class of 2013 with GPAs under 3.5, very unusual for HLS, both H undergrads.

CLS is inundated with HYP people (seems very heavy on Y for some reason) as well as Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth, etc....only a coupe Stanford people who I know. In general, I think the reason for that is that the people who go to Ivy schools generally are good test takers and therefore have higher LSATs. I don't think it is because of a big systematic bias for people with Ivy degrees. But HYP can tip the scales. I keep thinking of more anecdotes: non-minority friend from H undergrad who was in at NYU RD with a 168/3.5; Stanford undergrad friend non-minority in at CLS with a 167, not sure of GPA, etc etc. I know the numbers mean more than the anecdotes. I think I have a table with the averages I was talking about above. Let me see if I can find it.

Okay, so here are some numbers from the table. These are LSAT/GPA averages of Stanford undergrads (or recent BAs) admitted to various schools - the matriculated averages are in parentheses. The matriculated numbers are the ones that can really be compared to the schools' medians since the medians are based on matriculants, not admitted students, and you can see some drastic differences in the matriculated averages and the medians of some schools (eg, Berkeley, CLS, Duke). I put the schools' overall medians in brackets. However, I don't know how the average v median things plays out. Overall, though, looking at this, it seems like there is a small boost for being a S undergrad....maybe ~1 point on the LSAT or .1 or .2 points on the GPA.

Stanford Student LSAT/GPA Averages
School: admitted averages (matriculated averages) [medians for c/o 2013]
Berkeley: 168/3.75 (164/3.66) - [167/3.8]
Columbia: 170/3.77 (166/3.62) - [172/3.72]
Cornell: 165/3.66 (n/a) - [168/3.7]
Duke: 170/3.7 (165/3.52) - [170/3.8]
GULC: 169/3.66 (166/3.58) - [170/3.67]
NYU: 170/3.77 (169/3.76) - [172/3.71]
Northwestern: 169/3.64 (166/3.72) - [170/3.8]
Penn: 168/3.86 (n/a) - [170/3.85]
Stanford: 171/3.85 (171/3.83) - [170/3.88]
Michigan: 170.5/3.69 (169/3.64) - [169/3.73]
UVa: 171/3.69 (172/3.39) - [170/3.85]
Yale: 174/3.87 (173/3.84) - [173/3.91]
Chicago: 169/3.7 (n/a) - [171/3.78]
Harvard: 172.5/3.83 (171/3.76) - [173/3.89]
*They did not compute averages if less than five students went so I put n/a.

If you look at those matriculated averages and imagine the whole class was made of Stanford students, some schools' medians would probably be a lot lower although, again, it is hard to know mean v median, especially since I think schools love URMs from HYPS, and they tend to have lower LSAT scores, which may lower the average but not impact the median in the same way.

[IAFG]

Well, even the difference in percentage of applicants admitted is interesting, I think. And the mean is probably not so different from the median that the evidence is rendered completely irrelevant. It is by no means definitive, but it is interesting to see.

I think it is irrelevant.

First, the percent admitted being higher is no surprise: top UG grads have higher LSAT scores to begin with. Next, if you calculated the matriculation mean for most schools instead of the medians, you'd see a drop in both LSAT and GPA, because schools game the shit out of their medians and that medians are especially vulnerable to gaming. I rather suspect both Yale and Berkeley know this and choose to present the data this way on purpose.

[romothesavior]

This is a new topic that I have not read about on here before.

[hume85]

This is a new topic that I have not read about on here before.

Thank the lord for our savior romo: this motherfucker makes me laugh almost every time.