JD/MBA Taking Questions Forum

[lawprospie]

I'm really interested in seeing where this thread goes.

I'm applying to law school this year, but was accepted to b-school as a senior in college (think along the lines of 2+2). I'm applying to law school this year and if I can get into the law school I'm strongly considering doing the JD/MBA. I'm in my first year of management consulting, but not really loving it and would rather go to law school; however I worked my butt off to get in and the idea of a JD/MBA sounds crazy cool.

It really depends what you want to do. If you want to do a business job, just forget about the JD, get an MBA, be set, and save yourself loads of money and time.

If you want to practice law, you have to think long and hard about whether the extra year (and time, assuming you're doing a 4-year), is worth it. I think there are two circumstances where it's useful to get a JD/MBA even though you're coming in thinking you'll practice law:
-You're very uncertain about whether you actually want to practice law and want the optionality (even this isn't a great reason - it's much cheaper and easier to just decide what you want to do and save yourself the trouble)
-You value the academic experience / interdisciplinary perspective / nebulous long-term benefits / dual networks so much that you're willing to pay that much extra to get them.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is a JD/MBA is never worth it vs. either degree individually from a short-term ROI perspective. You're not going to make more money because you're a JD/MBA early in your career. So the only way to really justify it is (1) if you'll value the experience itself, (2) if it has value because it gives you optionality, or (3) if you think there are long term benefits (network, dual perspective, etc.) that will help you further along in your career. I personally think the last one is the case, at least for me, but it's a very hard thing to measure definitively.

Whatever you do, don't do a JD/MBA just because you're already into both schools. Sunk cost fallacy (or sunk benefit, in this case) - do the best thing for you regardless of your present situation.

Chuck Bass,

1. You might actually be attending the school, I'm considering doing the JD/MBA (CCN as well)

2. I definitely agree with your points. It's a huge struggle for me. A part of me is telling myself I only want the JD/MBA because I'm prestige conscious. I don't come from a highly educated familal background and I'm an AA male. Thus, my pursuit for a JD/MBA might be me overcompensating. Also, the idea of having 3 degrees from 1 really great university is pretty sweet.

P.S. My friends think I'm crazy. They are all like "Why the hell would you give up a gig in consulting with a seat at a M7 school for the crappiness that is law school / the legal profession?"
-- I feel like they don't quite understand and honestly, I'm sure there's a lot fo consultants/i-bankers in top law schools who could have went to a good b-school

3. I know I definitely want the JD and that I'm interested in the intersection of business and law.

I know this all comes down to a personal choice, but what are you thoughts for those who do the JD/MBA with only 1 year of work experience?

(FYI, I can keep my spot at the b-school with 1 year of w.e....my 1L would replace the second year of the required 2)

[Swimp]

it gives you optionality

You get access to two whole systems of jargon!

[bdubs]

Northwestern JD-MBA checking in to help answer questions.

Also, for those considering the law route. The JD-MBA can offer a financial advantage as well as a boost in recruiting.

[lawprospie]

Northwestern JD-MBA checking in to help answer questions.

Also, for those considering the law route. The JD-MBA can offer a financial advantage as well as a boost in recruiting.

Hi Bdubs,

When going the law route, does everyone (law firms included) think that you're going for transactional and not litigation? I can picture JD-MBAs doing stuff like the FDIC program or antitrust work, but perhaps I'm misguided

Also is it common for JD-MBAs to summer in the legal departments at big i-banks?

*Excuse any typos; I'm trying to be covert while at work

[whitman]

For someone on track to run a medium-sized company (300 to 500 employees), would a JD/MBA be more beneficial than just an MBA? Basically, how is a JD/MBA for general management? Useful or not at all?

[Borg]

For someone on track to run a medium-sized company (300 to 500 employees), would a JD/MBA be more beneficial than just an MBA? Basically, how is a JD/MBA for general management? Useful or not at all?

It's definitely useful, but not necessary. There are a lot of lawyers who run companies, and a lot of non-lawyers who also run companies. Thinking back to the company I founded, there are a number of things that I did that I would do differently now, and a number of decisions I had to make that didn't completely make sense to me at the time. I think a JD can help you to see some of the hidden strings that control the business world, and it can be valuable.

This is the part of the joint degree that is immensely hard to value. You might get it and then just practice law for the rest of your life like you would have anyway. You might get it and go a totally traditional MBA route and never really think about the legal stuff again. Or there might be some point in your life where one or the other puts you in a position to excel well beyond where you otherwise might have been. It's hard to say whether or not it's worth it when thinking along these lines. It might just come down to some single situation 20 years down the road where you have some critical insight that you wouldn't otherwise have, or it might not change a thing.

[whitman]

Yeah, that's about what I expected you'd say. Really extraordinarily difficult calculus.

[Cobretti]

Yeah, that's about what I expected you'd say. Really extraordinarily difficult calculus.

If open ended and non-committal answers frustrate you maybe you shouldn't be a lawyer.

[whitman]

Yeah, that's about what I expected you'd say. Really extraordinarily difficult calculus.

If open ended and non-committal answers frustrate you maybe you shouldn't be a lawyer.

You're not very good at reading. You've got inappropriate aggression down pat, though. Nice.

[Cobretti]

not going to turn this into a flame war, but if you didn't mean to sound condescending, probably avoid phrases with connotation like "really extraordinary calculus" that were simple general answers to your questions.

[whitman]

I shouldn't have responded in a fragment. The second half was commentary on the uncertainties (ROI first and foremost) that the poster referenced. The decision is extraordinarily difficult to make as a result. No disrespect intended toward the guy or gal who took the time to respond to me.

[Borg]

I shouldn't have responded in a fragment. The second half was commentary on the uncertainties (ROI first and foremost) that the poster referenced. The decision is extraordinarily difficult to make as a result. No disrespect intended toward the guy or gal who took the time to respond to me.

No worries, let's get this back on track. Yes, it is a different type of calculus to make. When choosing a law school, it's fairly simple because the decision is something like "is cost of school <= 160,000 x chance of firm job or LRAP x chance of nonprofit job?" When you throw in the MBA, the expense goes up and it's not clear that your immediate payoff is going to be any higher than it would otherwise be. You have to go with your gut to some degree.

I think the immediate payoff if you start in law is down the road. I know a ton of JD/MBAs who started in law and then called up friends in real estate development/banking/media or whatever else and switched industries. Some of them wound up extraordinarily wealthy, and others wound up making a very good salary (350-500). When you contextualize this and think about what most lawyers make after leaving biglaw, the value of the option becomes apparent. If you make partner at a big firm you might make around 1m, but if you're in house or something you will probably make around 200. If you have something else you want to go into, you might have the ability to hit an income middle ground that isn't available to a lot of lawyers.

[bdubs]

Hi Bdubs,

When going the law route, does everyone (law firms included) think that you're going for transactional and not litigation? I can picture JD-MBAs doing stuff like the FDIC program or antitrust work, but perhaps I'm misguided

Also is it common for JD-MBAs to summer in the legal departments at big i-banks?

*Excuse any typos; I'm trying to be covert while at work

The assumption is that you're interested in transactional work, but it can be overcome. I'm recruiting for antitrust work and have been very successful. We have a few interested in general commercial litigation and the dual degree is a huge asset as long as you can articulate why you did it.

I don't know of any big i-banks that recruit for legal work, but I never looked into it as a recruiting option. There are definitely JD-MBAs that go into i-banking on the finance side though.

[johnnyjazz]

Hey, I'm actually in a 2+2 program at HS and am considering doing the JD/MBA as well. It's a tough choice but the more I ask around, the more people in my industry tell me how valuable a JD is.

Oddly enough they emphasize that the biggest advantage is bringing the law school thought process to solve everyday business problems. However, people on this forum seem to indicate that simply learning how to "think" like a lawyer would be a terrible reason to go through 3 years of law school.

The truth is that I'm definitely interested in law, especially in the way that it relates to business and IP , but the long term benefits of a JD/MBA are so nebulous that making a decision is becoming paralyzing. I know that I definitely won't give up my MBA so it's either JD/MBA or just MBA.

Oh decisions.

I'm really interested in seeing where this thread goes.

I'm applying to law school this year, but was accepted to b-school as a senior in college (think along the lines of 2+2). I'm applying to law school this year and if I can get into the law school I'm strongly considering doing the JD/MBA. I'm in my first year of management consulting, but not really loving it and would rather go to law school; however I worked my butt off to get in and the idea of a JD/MBA sounds crazy cool.

It really depends what you want to do. If you want to do a business job, just forget about the JD, get an MBA, be set, and save yourself loads of money and time.

If you want to practice law, you have to think long and hard about whether the extra year (and time, assuming you're doing a 4-year), is worth it. I think there are two circumstances where it's useful to get a JD/MBA even though you're coming in thinking you'll practice law:
-You're very uncertain about whether you actually want to practice law and want the optionality (even this isn't a great reason - it's much cheaper and easier to just decide what you want to do and save yourself the trouble)
-You value the academic experience / interdisciplinary perspective / nebulous long-term benefits / dual networks so much that you're willing to pay that much extra to get them.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is a JD/MBA is never worth it vs. either degree individually from a short-term ROI perspective. You're not going to make more money because you're a JD/MBA early in your career. So the only way to really justify it is (1) if you'll value the experience itself, (2) if it has value because it gives you optionality, or (3) if you think there are long term benefits (network, dual perspective, etc.) that will help you further along in your career. I personally think the last one is the case, at least for me, but it's a very hard thing to measure definitively.

Whatever you do, don't do a JD/MBA just because you're already into both schools. Sunk cost fallacy (or sunk benefit, in this case) - do the best thing for you regardless of your present situation.

Chuck Bass,

1. You might actually be attending the school, I'm considering doing the JD/MBA (CCN as well)

2. I definitely agree with your points. It's a huge struggle for me. A part of me is telling myself I only want the JD/MBA because I'm prestige conscious. I don't come from a highly educated familal background and I'm an AA male. Thus, my pursuit for a JD/MBA might be me overcompensating. Also, the idea of having 3 degrees from 1 really great university is pretty sweet.

P.S. My friends think I'm crazy. They are all like "Why the hell would you give up a gig in consulting with a seat at a M7 school for the crappiness that is law school / the legal profession?"
-- I feel like they don't quite understand and honestly, I'm sure there's a lot fo consultants/i-bankers in top law schools who could have went to a good b-school

3. I know I definitely want the JD and that I'm interested in the intersection of business and law.

I know this all comes down to a personal choice, but what are you thoughts for those who do the JD/MBA with only 1 year of work experience?

(FYI, I can keep my spot at the b-school with 1 year of w.e....my 1L would replace the second year of the required 2)

[imchuckbass58]

Hey, I'm actually in a 2+2 program at HS and am considering doing the JD/MBA as well. It's a tough choice but the more I ask around, the more people in my industry tell me how valuable a JD is.

Oddly enough they emphasize that the biggest advantage is bringing the law school thought process to solve everyday business problems. However, people on this forum seem to indicate that simply learning how to "think" like a lawyer would be a terrible reason to go through 3 years of law school.

The truth is that I'm definitely interested in law, especially in the way that it relates to business and IP , but the long term benefits of a JD/MBA are so nebulous that making a decision is becoming paralyzing. I know that I definitely won't give up my MBA so it's either JD/MBA or just MBA.

Oh decisions.

One thing to think about his how "painful" the extra years will be to you (mostly financially, but also in terms of time).

My decision was actually relatively easy. On one hand, I didn't really mind the extra time in school. I had a very hard time seeing a scenario where I was 50, would look back, and say "damn, I wish I started working 1 (or 2) years earlier."

The bigger question in my mind is how painful the extra debt will be. If you're paying full freight, the JD/MBA over just MBA will double your debt load, which can make it go from ominous to potentially debilitating (depending on how remunerative your likely career is). For me it was easier because I am not paying close to full freight. So personal circumstances (scholarship, generous parents, how much you dislike debt) may factor in when you're trying to weigh the costs against the benefits.

[LeBronBBall]

Thanks for starting this thread.

I have some questions about MBA admissions, as well as MBA's OCR (or OCI) process.

I aspire to attend a top 10 b-school 4-5 years down the road, but not sure if that is possible due to my crappy college GPA. I graduated from UPenn Wharton undergrad last year, with GPA of 3.1. White male, straight, so no URM boost. Would it be possible to gain an acceptance into a top level b-school with top GMAT score despite shitty GPA? FWIW, I got into a lower T-14 law school despite my college GPA, but I had 172 LSAT. (I decided not to go to law school)

Also - I am curious about how the recruiting works at MBA stage. Do I-banking firms discriminate against candidates who don't have previous finance experience? I am currently working as a business analyst at a consulting firm (not MBB or 'top' tier), but I would like to know if I will get a decent shot at I-banking if I am able to go to a top MBA program. (because otherwise, I don't think going to an MBA program is worth it)

Lastly - what is your opinion on the job market for MBA's, from your school? Are there noticeable amounts of MBA's from your school who graduate without landing any decent corporate jobs? I would be very interested to know what percentage of MBA students from your school graduate with an I-banking or top-tier strategy consulting job offers.

Thanks in advance.

[imchuckbass58]

Would it be possible to gain an acceptance into a top level b-school with top GMAT score despite shitty GPA?

Yes, it is possible, but it will be very dependent on your work experience and essays. MBA admissions are not a numbers game. You need "threshold" numbers (i.e., GMAT ideally about 700), but beyond that, it's really about how good a story you weave, what sort of work experiences you can point to, etc.

Also - I am curious about how the recruiting works at MBA stage. Do I-banking firms discriminate against candidates who don't have previous finance experience? I am currently working as a business analyst at a consulting firm (not MBB or 'top' tier), but I would like to know if I will get a decent shot at I-banking if I am able to go to a top MBA program. (because otherwise, I don't think going to an MBA program is worth it)

I guess in a toss up they'd prefer people with prior finance experience, but it's by no means a prerequisite. Most people going into banking from MBA programs do not come from finance backgrounds, so it's clearly not an obstacle. Recruiting depends a lot more on grades (if your school discloses), demonstrated interest, and above all networking/playing the recruiting process correctly. MBA recruiting is very different from undergrad recruiting in that it's much more about meeting people, networking, and expressing interest than it is about numbers. For banking, you can be top of your class and if you don't go through the process of schmoozing, doing "informational interviews," attending events, etc., you won't get a job.

Lastly - what is your opinion on the job market for MBA's, from your school? Are there noticeable amounts of MBA's from your school who graduate without landing any decent corporate jobs? I would be very interested to know what percentage of MBA students from your school graduate with an I-banking or top-tier strategy consulting job offers.

Most b-schools publish detailed stats (links below). Very few people are unemployed / have really crappy jobs. Obviously there are some that get jobs that are "not as good" as they would have hoped. Keep in mind that a large portion of students (probably the majority, at most schools), are not at all interested in banking and/or consulting and don't recruit for it, so don't take the percentage going into banking/consulting as being indicative of success. Many top students do startups, take corporate jobs, or work elsewhere in finance besides banking, by choice.

Harvard: http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/data- ... stics.html

Stanford: http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/cmc/reports

Wharton: http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/your-c ... trends.cfm

Chicago: http://www.chicagobooth.edu/corp/hire/e ... ntreports/

Columbia: http://www7.gsb.columbia.edu/recruiters ... mentreport

Kellogg: http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/car ... stics.aspx

Sloan: http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/career-supp ... report.php

[lawprospie]

Chuck Bass is right... I know tons of people in b school who had non-profit, TFA, crisis mangement, research, and politics experience and went on to be big bank summer associates/ associates. It's all about creating a story.

Actually, I just met a Kellogg MBA this summer who was doing real estate PE, but had no finance experience... though that's probs rare.

[bdubs]

Thought I would share this bit of news with any prospective JD-MBA applicants:

http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... emId=10405

Kirkland and Ellis has a very positive and deep relationship with the JD-MBA program at Northwestern. If you're wondering whether the dual degree provides a meaningful differentiation for legal employers, I think this is the tangible proof that it does.

[Lear22]

Northwestern JD-MBA checking in to help answer questions.

Also, for those considering the law route. The JD-MBA can offer a financial advantage as well as a boost in recruiting.

Did you find the application process through Kellogg was a disadvantage when coming from the law school admissions route, since its a completely different application process

Do they favor URM in the same way that the law school does?

Did you find it as competitive as applying to the JD prog or less/more? How are they looking at LSAT scores via GMAT? As far as I understand you can't apply just with an LSAT.

Thanks!

[bdubs]

Northwestern JD-MBA checking in to help answer questions.

Also, for those considering the law route. The JD-MBA can offer a financial advantage as well as a boost in recruiting.

Did you find the application process through Kellogg was a disadvantage when coming from the law school admissions route, since its a completely different application process

Do they favor URM in the same way that the law school does?

Did you find it as competitive as applying to the JD prog or less/more? How are they looking at LSAT scores via GMAT? As far as I understand you can't apply just with an LSAT.

Thanks!

If you're looking at JD-MBA programs all of them will require an application to the business school. Northwestern is probably the easiest JD-MBA app because you really only have to the Kellogg application and you bypass almost all of the law school components. Many schools still require two totally different applications that are evaluated independently. The process here is more integrated.

I don't have an inside scoop on the admissions process but I get the impression that the standards are more akin to Kellogg's than the law schools. I would imagine URMs get a boost, but it's not going to be a straight up numerical boost in the way that law school admissions are.

You have to take the GMAT. I don't know of a JD-MBA program that accepts based only on the LSAT.

[Lear22]

Northwestern JD-MBA checking in to help answer questions.

Also, for those considering the law route. The JD-MBA can offer a financial advantage as well as a boost in recruiting.

Did you find the application process through Kellogg was a disadvantage when coming from the law school admissions route, since its a completely different application process

Do they favor URM in the same way that the law school does?

Did you find it as competitive as applying to the JD prog or less/more? How are they looking at LSAT scores via GMAT? As far as I understand you can't apply just with an LSAT.

Thanks!

If you're looking at JD-MBA programs all of them will require an application to the business school. Northwestern is probably the easiest JD-MBA app because you really only have to the Kellogg application and you bypass almost all of the law school components. Many schools still require two totally different applications that are evaluated independently. The process here is more integrated.

I don't have an inside scoop on the admissions process but I get the impression that the standards are more akin to Kellogg's than the law schools. I would imagine URMs get a boost, but it's not going to be a straight up numerical boost in the way that law school admissions are.

You have to take the GMAT. I don't know of a JD-MBA program that accepts based only on the LSAT.

Thanks! Do you have any idea how may applications were received/offered admissions/matriculated last year? They don't post that on their site

[warandpeace]

Question: is it really terrible if we decide to get our JD first, explore law, and decide to go back to get our MBA after maybe 3-5 years? I'm interested in the pursuit of the MBA for that intellectual value, rather than really trying to advance my career. Let me know if this is odd or if more details are needed.

[LeBronBBall]

Would it be possible to gain an acceptance into a top level b-school with top GMAT score despite shitty GPA?

Yes, it is possible, but it will be very dependent on your work experience and essays. MBA admissions are not a numbers game. You need "threshold" numbers (i.e., GMAT ideally about 700), but beyond that, it's really about how good a story you weave, what sort of work experiences you can point to, etc.

Also - I am curious about how the recruiting works at MBA stage. Do I-banking firms discriminate against candidates who don't have previous finance experience? I am currently working as a business analyst at a consulting firm (not MBB or 'top' tier), but I would like to know if I will get a decent shot at I-banking if I am able to go to a top MBA program. (because otherwise, I don't think going to an MBA program is worth it)

I guess in a toss up they'd prefer people with prior finance experience, but it's by no means a prerequisite. Most people going into banking from MBA programs do not come from finance backgrounds, so it's clearly not an obstacle. Recruiting depends a lot more on grades (if your school discloses), demonstrated interest, and above all networking/playing the recruiting process correctly. MBA recruiting is very different from undergrad recruiting in that it's much more about meeting people, networking, and expressing interest than it is about numbers. For banking, you can be top of your class and if you don't go through the process of schmoozing, doing "informational interviews," attending events, etc., you won't get a job.

Lastly - what is your opinion on the job market for MBA's, from your school? Are there noticeable amounts of MBA's from your school who graduate without landing any decent corporate jobs? I would be very interested to know what percentage of MBA students from your school graduate with an I-banking or top-tier strategy consulting job offers.

Most b-schools publish detailed stats (links below). Very few people are unemployed / have really crappy jobs. Obviously there are some that get jobs that are "not as good" as they would have hoped. Keep in mind that a large portion of students (probably the majority, at most schools), are not at all interested in banking and/or consulting and don't recruit for it, so don't take the percentage going into banking/consulting as being indicative of success. Many top students do startups, take corporate jobs, or work elsewhere in finance besides banking, by choice.

Harvard: http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/data- ... stics.html

Stanford: http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/cmc/reports

Wharton: http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/your-c ... trends.cfm

Chicago: http://www.chicagobooth.edu/corp/hire/e ... ntreports/

Columbia: http://www7.gsb.columbia.edu/recruiters ... mentreport

Kellogg: http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/car ... stics.aspx

Sloan: http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/career-supp ... report.php

Thanks a lot for your detailed/insightful reply. Your reply answered many of questions I had in mind.

I keep hearing that b-school admissions is much more qualitative than law school, and it isn't much of a numbers game. I am aware that b-schools care a lot about quality work experience, but I am not sure how much of hindrance my low college GPA will do me when I apply to b-schools.

My friends who are now applying to top MBA programs are telling me that, if you are a white male, even with quality work experience you basically need a top GPA to get into an M7 MBA. Is there any truth to this?

I was pretty shocked to hear that someone I know from my college - a Wharton UG grad with 3.8 GPA and 3 years work experience at a top tier consulting firm was rejected from all of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton. The best school he got into was Dartmouth Tuck. (waitlisted at Columbia)

Considering this individual had much better qualifications than I would have by the time I apply to b-schools, I am not sure what I should be working on now to increase my chances at admission. Could you elaborate on what kind of work experience that top b-schools look for? Do they judge WE based on the roles you had, or your promotion/ track record? Letters of recommendation? Does the 'prestige' of your company matter a lot? Lastly - do top b-schools favor any sort of industry over others?

The main reasons I would like to attend a top b-school several years down the road from now are: 1) access to I-banking interviews, 2) get another shot at MBB consulting, 3) network I would develop from a top b-school would be priceless, 4) I heard going to a b-school is fun as hell (lots of socializing, drinking, traveling, and partying), unlike undergrad, where it was super cut-throat. Do you think these are good enough reasons to consider MBA?

From your experience, do you think the MBA program is worth it? Are you having lots of fun? Sorry to ask you many questions, but I would love to hear your perspective, since going to an MBA program would be such a large financial investment. Thanks in advance.

[imchuckbass58]

Question: is it really terrible if we decide to get our JD first, explore law, and decide to go back to get our MBA after maybe 3-5 years? I'm interested in the pursuit of the MBA for that intellectual value, rather than really trying to advance my career. Let me know if this is odd or if more details are needed.

Yeah, at least at first glance this doesn't seem to make sense from my perspective. The MBA is really a career advancing degree, much more than an intellectual experience. I find law school to have much more intellectual value than b-school. You learn some stuff in b-school, but it's nothing groundbreaking, and there are plenty of people who manage to learn what they need to do on the job without an MBA. The value, at least in my mind is mostly about signaling, and "exposure" (i.e., networking, opportunity to try out different industries, etc.) So I wouldn't recommend it, but YMMV.