C&F Exact Wording Forum

[Rock4321]

Does anyone here know what the exact wording for the Character and Fitness sections is on the applications for Yale, Harvard, Stanford and other top schools? I already know about Cornell and Chicago since they've opened up their applications for this cycle. The reason I ask about this is that I was cited and given a diversion program for a criminal offense a few years ago, but I've never been arrested, charged, or convicted of anything. Thanks for the help.

[anon123]

I am in your same situation- great numbers but went through juvenile diversion with no charges, conviction, case etc. I am not disclosing to schools that just ask for a conviction and will disclose for those that ask for charges (even though I was never formally charged.... better safe than sorry for the Bar).

From what I have researched on TLS- Harvard and Yale only ask for convictions. But Yale blog says you should disclose everything anyway (which doesn't make sense you are absolutely not lying by answering no to conviction.)

Convictions only:
Yale
Harvard
Penn
Georgetown
Columbia

Have to disclose everything:
NYU
Duke
UVA
Vanderbilt

What was the wording for Cornell and Chicago? Can people add to this if they know..

Also, if it makes you feel better I have contacted a few state Bars and every single one has said this poses virtually no problem. They will recognize how much time has passed, that it is an isolated incident/childish mistake and you have gotten your act together since. Still hate having to bring it up.. talk about skeletons in the closet.

Edited to change Penn and Columbia. This cycle C&F questions are different than last.

[Swimp]

This is going to be a big headache for me, I think. I've been cited for speeding five times (earliest when I was in high school), three of those in another state. Because of the laws in two of counties I was cited in, I could have been convicted of a misdemeanor (but I never was).

I looked at Chicago and Cornell and it sounds like Chicago is pretty clear about wanting you to disclose just about any negative run-ins with the law, no matter what. Cornell was a little more vague about their policy regarding traffic tickets, I thought.

Does anyone know what the easiest way to get traffic court records from other states is? Can the DMV do it for me or am I going to have to call someone?

[dingbat]

Don't avoid applying for C&F reasons - there's a decent chance the school won't care (if it's minor)
The bigger concern is that you'll get through C&F when you sit for the bar.

PS- if any school dings you for C&F, you need to talk to your state bar association before going to law school to ensure you can be admitted.

[Rock4321]

Thanks for the replies. The reason I'm hesitant about applying to schools that ask for full disclosure is that I received diversion for shoplifting. Admissions officers might view that in a more negative light than, say, DUI or speeding tickets.

[Swimp]

So are you worried about discrepancies between what you disclose to some schools and not others? Because otherwise, why wouldn't you disclose if necessary and see what happens? The consensus seems to be that schools don't care about anything less than a misdemeanor.

Also, I would guess that a DUI would be considered much more serious than a citation for shoplifting.

[fatduck]

Thanks for the replies. The reason I'm hesitant about applying to schools that ask for full disclosure is that I received diversion for shoplifting. Admissions officers might view that in a more negative light than, say, DUI or speeding tickets.

lol

no one is going to give a shit

[Rock4321]

So are you worried about discrepancies between what you disclose to some schools and not others? Because otherwise, why wouldn't you disclose if necessary and see what happens? The consensus seems to be that schools don't care about anything less than a misdemeanor.

Also, I would guess that a DUI would be considered much more serious than a citation for shoplifting.

I'm not really concerned about discrepancies-- if Harvard only asks for convictions and pending charges, I'll gladly check the "No" box on their C&F section, even if I checked "Yes" for Chicago. My concern is that I won't be admitted because of the shoplifting debacle (which took place three years ago, btw). Either way, I'm gonna call the attorney who represented for it tomorrow and ask him what records were kept of the incident.

lol

no one is going to give a shit

I really hope that's true.

[anon123]

Mine was for shoplifting too. It was over 5 years ago when I was a young teenager. I am certainly minimizing the schools I apply to that ask for full disclosure but lucked out that most of my top choices only want convictions. I'm worried about how it will look on apps, but really hoping adcomms will look at it as youthful indiscretion resulting from peer pressure. I am not worried about passing C&F for the Bar since it will be a 10 year old juvenile diversion expunction by then. Just worried that it kills an otherwise very strong application. Although, the school I talked to about it said it really did not matter at all given my circumstances.

[Smumps]

This is going to be a big headache for me, I think. I've been cited for speeding five times (earliest when I was in high school), three of those in another state. Because of the laws in two of counties I was cited in, I could have been convicted of a misdemeanor (but I never was).

I looked at Chicago and Cornell and it sounds like Chicago is pretty clear about wanting you to disclose just about any negative run-ins with the law, no matter what. Cornell was a little more vague about their policy regarding traffic tickets, I thought.

Does anyone know what the easiest way to get traffic court records from other states is? Can the DMV do it for me or am I going to have to call someone?

Chicago is charge/conviction, not anything. HTH.

[Rock4321]

Chicago is charge/conviction, not anything. HTH.

Here is the exact wording of Chicago's C&F section: "Have you ever been charged with or convicted of any crime or offense other than a minor traffic violation? This includes any charges, complaints or citations that were filed against you as a juvenile or as an adult, formal or informal, pending or closed, dismissed, expunged, sealed or subject to a diversionary program, and includes any charges, complaints or citations that you reasonably expect to be brought against you. If so, please provide all material facts and an explanation of the circumstances."

I only wish they had stopped after that first sentence, but it seems they want to dredge up any infraction you've ever committed.

[gaud]

Thanks for the replies. The reason I'm hesitant about applying to schools that ask for full disclosure is that I received diversion for shoplifting. Admissions officers might view that in a more negative light than, say, DUI or speeding tickets.

lol

no one is going to give a shit

this is true. buddy of mine had convictionscharges more severe than those and still got t14.

EDIT: they were convictions, not charges

[Swimp]

Chicago is charge/conviction, not anything. HTH.

Here is the exact wording of Chicago's C&F section: "Have you ever been charged with or convicted of any crime or offense other than a minor traffic violation? This includes any charges, complaints or citations that were filed against you as a juvenile or as an adult, formal or informal, pending or closed, dismissed, expunged, sealed or subject to a diversionary program, and includes any charges, complaints or citations that you reasonably expect to be brought against you. If so, please provide all material facts and an explanation of the circumstances."

I only wish they had stopped after that first sentence, but it seems they want to dredge up any infraction you've ever committed.

Does anyone know if there is an official definition of a "minor" traffic violation? Also, is being cited essentially the same as being charged?

[Smumps]

Chicago is charge/conviction, not anything. HTH.

Here is the exact wording of Chicago's C&F section: "Have you ever been charged with or convicted of any crime or offense other than a minor traffic violation? This includes any charges, complaints or citations that were filed against you as a juvenile or as an adult, formal or informal, pending or closed, dismissed, expunged, sealed or subject to a diversionary program, and includes any charges, complaints or citations that you reasonably expect to be brought against you. If so, please provide all material facts and an explanation of the circumstances."

I only wish they had stopped after that first sentence, but it seems they want to dredge up any infraction you've ever committed.

Wow. What does the second sentence even mean? Does a civilian accusing me of theft, for example, fall under 'complaint filed against you?' I read charge/convict and assumed a very specific threshold.

edit: From my stellar research, it appears that a Prosecutor's filing of the charge is considered a "complaint." Either way, confusing.

[Yardbird]

Cornell Q1:

Have you ever been the subject of disciplinary proceedings or been warned; placed on probation; dropped; expelled; or been asked or advised or permitted to withdraw; or been suspended for academic, nonacademic, or any other reasons by any of the colleges, universities, graduate schools, or professional schools you have attended, or are any such proceedings pending?

Cornell Q2:

Have you ever, either as an adult or a juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking or traffic violations, or been the subject of any juvenile delinquency or youthful offender proceeding?

Cornell Q3:

Have you ever served on full-time active military duty?

Cornell Q4:

If you answer yes, was your discharge under conditions other than honorable?

Chicago Q1:

In connection with your enrollment at any college, university, or other institution of higher education, have you ever been found to be guilty, responsible or accountable for any misconduct, including but not limited to any matter for which you were suspended, dismissed, expelled, banned, restricted, placed on probation, or subject to any other sanction or penalty? If so, please provide all material facts and an explanation of the circumstances. NOTE: Misconduct includes but is not limited to academic and non-academic matters. You must also disclose disciplinary matters that are pending at the time of your application.

Chicago Q2:

Have you ever been charged with or convicted of any crime or offense other than a minor traffic violation? This includes any charges, complaints or citations that were filed against you as a juvenile or as an adult, formal or informal, pending or closed, dismissed, expunged, sealed or subject to a diversionary program, and includes any charges, complaints or citations that you reasonably expect to be brought against you. If so, please provide all material facts and an explanation of the circumstances.

Chicago Q3:

Have you been discharged or dismissed from the armed forces, other than by honorable discharge, or sentenced in a court-martial proceeding?