Dismissed from T14, want to go back to law school Forum

[IAFG]

As the poster above noted, this is a difficult issue to broach. I wonder if many adcomms would read about my issues and just think, "Boy, I wish I had never read that." I'd rather not report anything that isn't required, that's ADA-protected, and that makes people prone to cringing and stereotyping. I wish that I wouldn't be judged negatively for it, but it's fair to assume that I will. Does anyone else have thoughts on if a diversity statement on this matter is appropriate or helpful? I think it may be best to leave it out altogether.... phew, what a doozy!

I can understand why you want to limit your disclosure, but failure to disclose is the worst sin of all in law. As I would have thought you would already understand by now. Frankly, I think you're mistaken to believe that your past behavior isn't going to prohibit you from entering law, even if you can convince a school to let you rack up the debt before you get shut out. C&F looks well beyond what an employer can look at, including history of mental illness and your disciplinary record. FERPA isn't going to protect you from C&F, and neither is the ADA.

[dontbeanidiot]

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[dresden doll]

The good news is that a person can get past pretty much any issue with C and F for as long as they're capable of demonstrating they've rehabilitated. The bad news is that OP is unlikely to exhibit requisite rehabilitation for as long as he refuses to take responsibility for his actions.

[dresden doll]

As the poster above noted, this is a difficult issue to broach. I wonder if many adcomms would read about my issues and just think, "Boy, I wish I had never read that." I'd rather not report anything that isn't required, that's ADA-protected, and that makes people prone to cringing and stereotyping. I wish that I wouldn't be judged negatively for it, but it's fair to assume that I will. Does anyone else have thoughts on if a diversity statement on this matter is appropriate or helpful? I think it may be best to leave it out altogether.... phew, what a doozy!

I can understand why you want to limit your disclosure, but failure to disclose is the worst sin of all in law. As I would have thought you would already understand by now. Frankly, I think you're mistaken to believe that your past behavior isn't going to prohibit you from entering law, even if you can convince a school to let you rack up the debt before you get shut out. C&F looks well beyond what an employer can look at, including history of mental illness and your disciplinary record. FERPA isn't going to protect you from C&F, and neither is the ADA.

No law school requires you to state your disabilities. The bar does. All I have to do is be honest to them and answer what they ask. I agree that failure to disclose is a terrible sin... murdering is probably worse. My omission was negligent, but I wasn't trying to commit application fraud on them any more than I was on the other 6 schools I applied to whose criminal conduct questions would have been correctly answered with the same "No" check. My past behavior is overwhelmingly positive too. I made some mistakes but suicidal ideation isn't a crime. I understand that the bar considers it but in the totality of my life, what happened doesn't disqualify me from being a lawyer in a way totally beyond redemtion, I just had some human shortcomings.... I hope anyway.

In any case, I will be fully forthcoming with the Bar and the law schools in answering everything they ask of me, but if they don't ask, it's safe to assume they don't want to know. Most schools probably really don't want to know about ADA protected psychiatric disorders, because if they wanted to deny the applicant anyways, their knowledge of the disorder makes them more prone to be accused of discrimination. I will tell the Bar everything they want to know, which by then would include presumably 5+ years of counseling, an uninterrupted corporate career and uninterrupted law school career, and whatever else I'm able to do. I will consult with a C&F attorney before applying after I've worked some and gotten in a better place, there's no point to do it until I show some progress in my life to work off of. I know my situation looks terrible, and I guess the reason I'm here is because I don't know if this keeps me from practicing in the law or not, but I would hate to think that it does and hopeful for advice on how I can make it work in the future.

You sound like you've firmly decided that this can't keep you from practicing law, in which case this thread appears redundant.

[dontbeanidiot]

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[Gail]

From every appeal I've read, "rehabilitation" is a really subjective term with no clear definition. Keeping your nose clean is not always enough. Fully disclosing is not always enough. Demonstrating apology is not always enough. Being an active member in your community is not always enough. The combination of all of it is not always enough. Your entire time in law school will be plagued by this in the back of your mind. I think you should know that before you pursue further. If dismissed, I'd consider it to be close enough to a death blow to not risk pursuing, if not a full out death blow.


It makes me very, very sad. I don't honestly know if there's anything you can do that will give you enough of a guarantee to justify the risk. I'm so sorry. This isn't a fair situation to be in. You don't deserve this. C&F seems so unfair. I don't know why this system is so opposed to second chances. There are too many parts of this line of work that are really unforgiving.

[dontbeanidiot]

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[NR3C1]

Stop wasting your time here and talk to a C&F attorney. Better to spend a few hundred bucks before "investing" 200K only to be denied admission to the bar.

[dontbeanidiot]

Stop wasting your time here and talk to a C&F attorney. Better to spend a few hundred bucks before "investing" 200K only to be denied admission to the bar.

I will, but I want to wait a year or so before consulting with one, just to put a little time between me and the incident, and since I know I won't be applying this or next cycle anyway. I know it's not easy to give advice unless you've been in this situation, which I'm probably the only person that has been... f-------------ck. lol

[rayiner]

From every appeal I've read, "rehabilitation" is a really subjective term with no clear definition. Keeping your nose clean is not always enough. Fully disclosing is not always enough. Demonstrating apology is not always enough. Being an active member in your community is not always enough. The combination of all of it is not always enough. Your entire time in law school will be plagued by this in the back of your mind. I think you should know that before you pursue further. If dismissed, I'd consider it to be close enough to a death blow to not risk pursuing, if not a full out death blow.


It makes me very, very sad. I don't honestly know if there's anything you can do that will give you enough of a guarantee to justify the risk. I'm so sorry. This isn't a fair situation to be in. You don't deserve this. C&F seems so unfair. I don't know why this system is so opposed to second chances. There are too many parts of this line of work that are really unforgiving.

There are no guarantees, but C&F isn't an arbitrary process. One of my professors is on the C&F committee here in Illinois, and she has described the multiple layers of process they have for people whose files flag something. Most people are green-lighted after a quick chat with a C&F committee member. Being cagey with disclosure, however, is a great way for that person to see the need to refer you higher up the process.

[woeisme]

Kimberly has given you good advice. I wouldn't bring up any psychiatric issues in your school applications unless asked. Even if it doesn't create some sort of bias, it might seem like you're trying to justify or divert the focus.

Just be concise and professional when detailing the dismissal. Obviously disclose all that's pertinent but it'd be better to say too little than too much. Schools can always ask for supplemental information from you if they have questions.

C&F is a separate issue. This will definitely be an issue in C&F review. Pretty unlikely to keep you out, but it might delay your admission a bit

[sunynp]

Stop wasting your time here and talk to a C&F attorney. Better to spend a few hundred bucks before "investing" 200K only to be denied admission to the bar.

I will, but I want to wait a year or so before consulting with one, just to put a little time between me and the incident, and since I know I won't be applying this or next cycle anyway. I know it's not easy to give advice unless you've been in this situation, which I'm probably the only person that has been... f-------------ck. lol

No this is just stupid. Talk to them now. Get them to help you formulate a plan on how to deal with your situation. Don't just try to figure out what to do on your own for the next few years.. If you cant afford it, I would borrow the money to consult with a lawyer who is familiar with situations like yours. How many times do you need to hear the same advice? Go to a professional now. Not being willing to get solid advice now makes me think you aren't really serious about going back to law school.

[Kimberly]

Listen, you are just going to have to sort through all of the judgement in these posts. Lots of people overcome serious lapses in judgement and still achieve success in their lives and careers. You are lucky your lapses have occurred now so that you can work on your character flaws and not end up a total schmuck later down the line like say President Clinton (who, by the way, is still arguably successful despite his complete lapses in judgement and blatant public lies). I think for the purposes of this thread, people who would actually like to post USEFUL advice should assume that a law career is exactly what OP wants at any cost and tailor your advice to help OP identify the relevant issues that should be addressed and resolved to achieve this end. Issues identified so far that I think are relevant:

1. Risk of not being admitted to bar (I have absolutely no advice here... haven't never dealt with these issues).
2. to address psych issues in application or not to address (my personal opinion is that with some serious effort you could potentially turn this into a really positive and compelling DS without being whiny or a victim or appearing insane).
3. how to address the addendum of being dismissed from school (as stated in my prior post, you know my opinion here)

Overall, trust me when I say, people overcome shit all of the time. Don't let others bog you down with their own projections of how shitty and hopeless they might feel in your situation... this is your lot, not theirs. Just distill a sound action plan for your applications if you do intend to apply again and find a trustworthy and reliable confidant (hopefully a lawyer or prior friend from your law school class) who will read through your application and help you frame yourself in the absolute most positive, collected, successful, and levelheaded light possible.

[dontbeanidiot]

Stop wasting your time here and talk to a C&F attorney. Better to spend a few hundred bucks before "investing" 200K only to be denied admission to the bar.

I will, but I want to wait a year or so before consulting with one, just to put a little time between me and the incident, and since I know I won't be applying this or next cycle anyway. I know it's not easy to give advice unless you've been in this situation, which I'm probably the only person that has been... f-------------ck. lol

No this is just stupid. Talk to them now. Get them to help you formulate a plan on how to deal with your situation. Don't just try to figure out what to do on your own for the next few years.. If you cant afford it, I would borrow the money to consult with a lawyer who is familiar with situations like yours. How many times do you need to hear the same advice? Go to a professional now. Not being willing to get solid advice now makes me think you aren't really serious about going back to law school.

When you put it like that it makes sense. I can see one now if they help you formulate a plan for this. I don't want to have a bunch of contrived experiences that were recommended by a C&F attorney to "demonstrate rehabilitation," I just want to live my life healthy, and I've been prioritizing the psychiatric stuff for that reason, in terms of consulting with professionals. I am serious about going back though.

[nsbane]

I have had a history of deep depression and have scars from prior incidents and had recently had something of a breakdown that my roommate had been made aware of, and had taken what this overzealous roommate deemed to be too many Tylenol PMs (under daily max dose, taken for kicks and sleep).

I've been reading on this thread, and everyone seems to have given you good advice so far, but I want to touch on something that no one else seems to have said.

Your first mistake was not to disclose. Your second mistake was to let your roommate become aware of your history of deep depression and suicide attempts / cutting. That is not something you tell casual acquaintances. If you do, expect to get an ambulance called again when you open a bottle of Tylenol PM.

Yes, people with your mental health issues need to identify people you can turn to when you have a breakdown, such as a school counselor, psychologist, relative, mentor. But not your law school roommate. You're not living together because you're friends; you're together because some administrator randomly paired you. Don't mistake proximity for intimacy.

When people ask you about your scars, you say "They look awful, huh. Got them in a mountain biking accident when I was a teenager, but they look like suicide scars or something. Once I graduate I want to get plastic surgery to have it reduced, I'm so self-conscious about them." If they're that noticeable, don't you have a story like that to tell people? I say this because I had a gf who cut herself in junior high a long time ago when her mom died, and she had a story for the scars on her arms, but after we dated for a long time, she told me the truth.

When you had a breakdown, you don't tell him you're having a breakdown. After it's over, you don't say "sorry man, I was just in the middle of a mental breakdown that I'm sort of prone to because I have a history of deep depression." You say "sorry dude, flipped out because of stress, can't promise it won't happen again, but I can promise you have permission to slap me."

People naturally have a social filter, and they don't expect to hear very serious matters discussed casually. If you had diabetes, it would be cool to tell your roommate to knock on your door and check up on you if you don't leave your room, in case you were in a coma. It really sucks, but depression isn't the same way - you can't just tell your roommate that you have considered suicide and cut yourself. If you don't exercise that social filter, if you tell your roommates about your depression like that, they will feel awkward and treat you accordingly. What this means is if you go to another law school, you need to try extra hard to identify the appropriate resources you can turn to - school counselor, psychologist, etc... and probably make an effort to see regularly even when everything is fine, so when something is wrong, you already have a routine of seeing them.

[sunynp]

Stop wasting your time here and talk to a C&F attorney. Better to spend a few hundred bucks before "investing" 200K only to be denied admission to the bar.

I will, but I want to wait a year or so before consulting with one, just to put a little time between me and the incident, and since I know I won't be applying this or next cycle anyway. I know it's not easy to give advice unless you've been in this situation, which I'm probably the only person that has been... f-------------ck. lol

No this is just stupid. Talk to them now. Get them to help you formulate a plan on how to deal with your situation. Don't just try to figure out what to do on your own for the next few years.. If you cant afford it, I would borrow the money to consult with a lawyer who is familiar with situations like yours. How many times do you need to hear the same advice? Go to a professional now. Not being willing to get solid advice now makes me think you aren't really serious about going back to law school.

When you put it like that it makes sense. I can see one now if they help you formulate a plan for this. I don't want to have a bunch of contrived experiences that were recommended by a C&F attorney to "demonstrate rehabilitation," I just want to live my life healthy, and I've been prioritizing the psychiatric stuff for that reason, in terms of consulting with professionals. I am serious about going back though.

I think that focusing on your health is the most important thing and that should be your priority until you are ready to take on this huge project of trying to go back to law school.

I don't think a C&F attorney will tell you to have a bunch of contrived experiences. I think it would be more a matter of advising you what things people have done in the past that C&F views favorably. Also they should know the best way to approach applications, particularly with your mental health issues. And they should be able to tell you what your chances are of bar admission. They may even be able to advise you on your chances of being admitted to law school (but doubtful)..

I still think that if you have a chance at another career you should just go for that. (Just to repeat myself three times.) Law isn't a great career for a vast majority of grads. I don't think you should give up a shot at another career to go through all this hassle for just to go to law school. You might have read that the number of people applying to law school has dropped dramatically over the past two years. The biggest drop is from the highest scoring applicants on the LSAT. This is because law school is not the attractive career option that it was a generation or so ago.

edit: Again, I'm sorry if this sounds too harsh. I'm just trying to give you my best advice straight. You seem willing to listen to the hard truth. I really do wish you well.

[EMZE]

I realize your former school was private, but as someone who has worked in the public realm for a number of years, you may have some luck bringing your issue to the attention of a local elected official. Not to complain, not to remove yourself from blame, but I have seen instances where people in similar situations, be it in jobs or schools, write to their congressman who then writes to the school and asks for a report on why they did whatever. It is at least a good way of hopefully elicitng some kind of official explanation which you can then use for the future. Just my .02, and it might help. At the end of the day you can get the response and throw it out or use it as an explanaation for future applications.

[dontbeanidiot]

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[dontbeanidiot]

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[Lincoln]

Make the decision you think is right for you, but be aware that even if you get into another school, you will
(1) Have to complete a background check after you get an offer from you firm. If the background check is unsatisfactory, the firm can withdraw the offer.
(2) Complete C&F for admission to the bar. No one here can really help you with whether or not you'll pass that, so I'd contact a C&F attorney before doing anything else.
(3) Get security clearance for any government job. It's basically a much more thorough background check that goes further into your past. With your background, that will also be an uphill struggle.

[Holly Golightly]

I just want to know if this is the one who threatened the dean of students/tried to blackmail someone, or the one who beat up his fiancee. Our 1L class is awesome this year.

[Quan292]

I know you are like shit mom. Couldnt you just spank me? lol but seriously I hope all goes well with you.

[dontbeanidiot]

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[DrManflesh]

Alls I know is they didn't put an extra security detail around the Dean of Students that is so restrictive they even follow the guy to the shitter just because they like spending money.

[1800calturk]

At the very least, take a few years to distance yourself from this, make peace with what happened and with yourself, and then come back if it's still what you want. At that point, the best advice I can give you, you already know. You need to disclose. And it's about a different mindset. Don't disclose what you think you need to to get by, you have to stop trying to revise history in a favorable light. Just disclose it all.