Law school or grad school? Forum

[Perchik]

I've been racking my brain for a long time about this and feel a bit lost. I would appreciate any ideas or thoughts to help me make this decision.

My situation is this:

-I'm two years out of undergrad, have been traveling
-No debt, about $10,000 in total saving,
-In at UT Austin with 28,000 total scholarship (for three years). This is the school I want to go to if I were to study law. Am a Texas resident. I think that puts me at about $90,000 to $100,000 in debt after the scholarship.
-I want to do something in the public interest field. I don't have specifics down, I just know what I would like to do something related to government or non-profit. I'm interested in so many areas of public interest, including areas that do not necessarily involve or require one to be a lawyer.
-I could be happy doing something that doesn't necessarily involve practicing law, could also see myself happy with practicing law in the PI field only. I worked as a legal assistant in the private sector and could never see myself happy there.
-Eventually later in life would like to teach at a university level (not to teach at a law school, just undergraduate level - could see myself happy with teaching something related to law or my BA work in political science)

My fear really stems from the debt. I'm trying to list the pros and cons of law vs. grad school. I wonder if a JD would give me an upper hand in some jobs and give me more flexibility with job options but the debt makes me wonder if I will be forced to take jobs I don't want just to pay off the debt and that will cancel out this flexibility. On the other hand I've heard a lot of negativity about getting a masters in a humanities field.

My current plan is to attend in the fall and see how 1L goes. If I hate it I will leave and accept whatever debt I racked up, move on and try grad school.


Any thoughts/advice would be awesome, guys.

[R2-D2]

I've been stuck in the same predicament in the past, even sometimes to this day. There are pros and cons to both law school and grad school.

Law School
Pros: Your chances of getting a job (as opposed to a humanities M.A. or PH.D.) is much better, and so are your earnings potential. If you make it to a top-50 school, you could have a very good chance of getting a six-figure salary straight out of law school. With a law degree, you could also do many other things, such as journalism, business, government, etc.
Cons: You'll probably have to shell out around $100,000 or more of your own money, or take out student loans in that amount and pay it off afterwards (which is why the vast majority of law grads head straight for BigLaw; they need that money to pay off those loans). And you'd better do mighty well on the LSAT, because that's what's going to get you in. GPA is important too, but the LSAT is definitely weighed the heaviest.

Grad School
Pros: In both the humanities and science fields, if you're going for a PH.D, you'll probably be going there for free, and on a living stipend for the school, which is a really good deal. Going to school for free, teaching what you enjoy, and researching what you enjoy is pretty fun if you ask me. You take the GRE for admission, which is a fairly easy test as compared to the LSAT. Grad school is also easier to get into as compared with law school, all you need is an excellent GPA, a great GRE score, letters of rec, and a writing sample. Other than that, that's it.
Cons: Getting a tenure-track position is extremely hard nowadays, especially in the humanities. You'd probably have a better chance of getting a government or private sector job; agencies like the CIA and State Department love Humanities PH.D's, especially in fields like Political Science and History. Businesses also tend to like English PH.D's as well.
You'll also have to write a dissertation, which is almost like writing a book, and it's a lot of work. And, don't forget, a law degree takes 3 years, while a PH.D can take about 5-6 years to finish directly from undergrad (if you're lucky). So make sure you are passionate about your subject.

I'm actually still debating this myself as well!

[AntipodeanPhil]

To give reasonable answers to this question we would need a lot of information we don't have. What subject are you considering for grad school? MA or PhD? Would the programs you are considering pay your tuition + a stipend? What are the job prospects like? How upset would you be to spend three/six years in grad school and not get a job in your area (some people enjoy grad school in itself; others don't)?

Some specific comments:

Eventually later in life would like to teach at a university level

Not going to happen with a JD, for two reasons: (1) almost all law school professors have JDs from HYSCC - especially Y; (2) if you have more than about three years of experience practicing the law, law schools are much less likely to hire you. Although, there are TTTT schools that seem to be the exception to that rule. There are some people who get academia from schools like UT Austin, but you'd have to go about it a different way.

If I hate it I will leave and accept whatever debt I racked up, move on and try grad school.

Why would you do that? Law school isn't much like practicing the law - even in a PI field.

[R2-D2]

To give reasonable answers to this question we would need a lot of information we don't have. What subject are you considering for grad school? MA or PhD? Would the programs you are considering pay your tuition + a stipend? What are the job prospects like? How upset would you be to spend three/six years in grad school and not get a job in your area (some people enjoy grad school in itself; others don't)?

Some specific comments:

Eventually later in life would like to teach at a university level

Not going to happen with a JD, for two reasons: (1) almost all law school professors have JDs from HYSCC - especially Y; (2) if you have more than about three years of experience practicing the law, law schools are much less likely to hire you. Although, there are TTTT schools that seem to be the exception to that rule. There are some people who get academia from schools like UT Austin, but you'd have to go about it a different way.

If I hate it I will leave and accept whatever debt I racked up, move on and try grad school.

Why would you do that? Law school isn't much like practicing the law - even in a PI field.

Totally agree. The vast majority of law school professors come from the top 5 law schools in the nation, and even then, you'd have to be near the top of your class to make it.

But, you could teach at a 4-year university with a JD; most of my history professors in college were former attorneys. You'll usually be able to teach whatever you majored in in college (for example, if you were a history major, you could teach history, if you were an English major, you could teach English, etc.)

[AntipodeanPhil]

Getting a tenure-track position is extremely hard nowadays, especially in the humanities. You'd probably have a better chance of getting a government or private sector job; agencies like the CIA and State Department love Humanities PH.D's, especially in fields like Political Science and History. Businesses also tend to like English PH.D's as well.
You'll also have to write a dissertation, which is almost like writing a book, and it's a lot of work. And, don't forget, a law degree takes 3 years, while a PH.D can take about 5-6 years to finish directly from undergrad (if you're lucky). So make sure you are passionate about your subject.

Some comments on this (my wife and I both have humanities PhDs, and I have a couple of dozen friends with humanties PhDs, across English, history, political science, and philosophy):

1. Getting a tt job is easier than getting work for the government. Getting a good government job with a humanities PhD is really difficult, unless you are a URM or veteran. Even in this economy, you have perhaps a 1/2 chance of getting a tt job from a decent tier 1 school, like UT, if you're willing to be persistant, take one-year positions first, et cetera. From an Ivy you have a much better chance.

2. Humanities PhDs take 6-8 years to finish, if you want a tt job.

3. Businesses don't like English PhDs - unless you have relevant business experience before or during grad school.

[AntipodeanPhil]

But, you could teach at a 4-year university with a JD; most of my history professors in college were former attorneys. You'll usually be able to teach whatever you majored in in college (for example, if you were a history major, you could teach history, if you were an English major, you could teach English, etc.)

Were those faculty hired in the last 5-10 years? Until about 10 years ago, two-year colleges and a few four-year colleges would sometimes hire faculty without PhDs. Now that is almost unheard of.

[R2-D2]

But, you could teach at a 4-year university with a JD; most of my history professors in college were former attorneys. You'll usually be able to teach whatever you majored in in college (for example, if you were a history major, you could teach history, if you were an English major, you could teach English, etc.)

Were those faculty hired in the last 5-10 years? Until about 10 years ago, two-year colleges and a few four-year colleges would sometimes hire faculty without PhDs. Now that is almost unheard of.

They weren't hired in the past 5-10 years, maybe a little over 10 years back. So, you really can't teach with a JD? It's a doctorate (a professional one) but nonetheless......

[R2-D2]

Getting a tenure-track position is extremely hard nowadays, especially in the humanities. You'd probably have a better chance of getting a government or private sector job; agencies like the CIA and State Department love Humanities PH.D's, especially in fields like Political Science and History. Businesses also tend to like English PH.D's as well.
You'll also have to write a dissertation, which is almost like writing a book, and it's a lot of work. And, don't forget, a law degree takes 3 years, while a PH.D can take about 5-6 years to finish directly from undergrad (if you're lucky). So make sure you are passionate about your subject.

Some comments on this (my wife and I both have humanities PhDs, and I have a couple of dozen friends with humanties PhDs, across English, history, political science, and philosophy):

1. Getting a tt job is easier than getting work for the government. Getting a good government job with a humanities PhD is really difficult, unless you are a URM or veteran. Even in this economy, you have perhaps a 1/2 chance of getting a tt job from a decent tier 1 school, like UT, if you're willing to be persistant, take one-year positions first, et cetera. From an Ivy you have a much better chance.

2. Humanities PhDs take 6-8 years to finish, if you want a tt job.

3. Businesses don't like English PhDs - unless you have relevant business experience before or during grad school.

This is really nice information to know, directly from a PH.D, thanks!
I didn't know that getting tenure was that easy; I've always heard from many sources that getting tenure is next to near impossible (unless you attend an Ivy), but I guess I was wrong.

By the way, what did you get your PH.D in, if you don't mind my asking.

[banjo]

What are your research interests for grad school? It's very hard to weigh in here without knowing the discipline and specialization. There is quite a bit of variation in the humanities market; some fields are not in demand and other fields are really, really not in demand.

[AntipodeanPhil]

They weren't hired in the past 5-10 years, maybe a little over 10 years back. So, you really can't teach with a JD? It's a doctorate (a professional one) but nonetheless......

You can teach in law schools, and some related areas - I think business schools still hire JDs, for example. I would be amazed if a JD got hired in a humanities department, though.

[AntipodeanPhil]

I didn't know that getting tenure was that easy; I've always heard from many sources that getting tenure is next to near impossible (unless you attend an Ivy), but I guess I was wrong.

I went to a state school, where most graduate programs are ranked from about 20-40 (so not quite as good as UT). I graduated when the academic job market was at its worst, and most of my friends graduated within a year or two of that. Probably about 1/3 have tt jobs, and another 1/3 have non-tt positions. Some (probably most) of those in non-tt positions will get tt positions as time passes, though. Before the collapse, probably 80% got tt jobs.

[Tom Joad]

They weren't hired in the past 5-10 years, maybe a little over 10 years back. So, you really can't teach with a JD? It's a doctorate (a professional one) but nonetheless......

You can teach in law schools, and some related areas - I think business schools still hire JDs, for example. I would be amazed if a JD got hired in a humanities department, though.

Yeah, it would be super doubtful that you could be anything other than an adjunct with a JD.

[Perchik]

Thanks very much to everyone who responded.

To give reasonable answers to this question we would need a lot of information we don't have. What subject are you considering for grad school? MA or PhD? Would the programs you are considering pay your tuition + a stipend? What are the job prospects like? How upset would you be to spend three/six years in grad school and not get a job in your area (some people enjoy grad school in itself; others don't)?

Some specific comments:

Eventually later in life would like to teach at a university level

Not going to happen with a JD, for two reasons: (1) almost all law school professors have JDs from HYSCC - especially Y; (2) if you have more than about three years of experience practicing the law, law schools are much less likely to hire you. Although, there are TTTT schools that seem to be the exception to that rule. There are some people who get academia from schools like UT Austin, but you'd have to go about it a different way.

If I hate it I will leave and accept whatever debt I racked up, move on and try grad school.

Why would you do that? Law school isn't much like practicing the law - even in a PI field.

For grad school I am considering a MA in Global Policy Studies/Diplomacy or the likes. Is there that much variation in demand with MA programs similar to those areas? There are a few fellowships open for me because I was Fulbrighter. The programs I would consider would be those that pay tuition.

The part about spending 3-6 years and still not getting a job in my area worries me. This could happen with a JD also but I feel like just a M.A. would leave me less flexible? I'm not sure about this. Would appreciate any knowledge/advice on this.

About teaching: I am not considering teaching at a law school, I mean a 4 yr university or even community college. I have no grand ambitious about the institution I would be teaching at either and could see myself happy teaching something related to my BA (political science).

The part about leaving: Many lawyers and mentors whom I've spoken with me encouraged me to try 1L out to get a better idea about what I want to do. At this point is seems like a good options because I don't want to turn UT down. I applied two years ago and was accepted but decided not to go straight out of undergrad and was denied a deferral. I think if I turned them down again (and I don't have anything lined up to merit another deferral request) the chances of letting me back in are slim. Like I said, for many reasons I would like to go to UT for law school if I were to go.

Many thanks again.

[Perchik]

What are your research interests for grad school? It's very hard to weigh in here without knowing the discipline and specialization. There is quite a bit of variation in the humanities market; some fields are not in demand and other fields are really, really not in demand.

My interests would be in policy, international studies, security, diplomacy and the likes. What fields are really not in demand? Are MAs that are mostly in content related really treated that differently?

[MrAnon]

You should probably try to work in a field before setting off to grad school for it, especially when you can't even decide which grad school or why grad school. Don't go to grad school or law school just for the sake of it. There are other paths in life.

[R2-D2]

What are your research interests for grad school? It's very hard to weigh in here without knowing the discipline and specialization. There is quite a bit of variation in the humanities market; some fields are not in demand and other fields are really, really not in demand.

My interests would be in policy, international studies, security, diplomacy and the likes. What fields are really not in demand? Are MAs that are mostly in content related really treated that differently?

Well, I know the M.A. in International Affairs/Relations is a very good degree with great career options (especially if you go to a good school for it). I've heard that you do need relevant work experience in the field to be admitted, but some do admit without work experience. The PH.D. in IR is pretty much the same thing. Anything in International Relations is greatly valued nowadays. Schools like Tufts, Johns Hopkins, and Georgetown are excellent schools in this field.

[organic muskrat]

I didn't know that getting tenure was that easy; I've always heard from many sources that getting tenure is next to near impossible (unless you attend an Ivy), but I guess I was wrong.

I went to a state school, where most graduate programs are ranked from about 20-40 (so not quite as good as UT). I graduated when the academic job market was at its worst, and most of my friends graduated within a year or two of that. Probably about 1/3 have tt jobs, and another 1/3 have non-tt positions. Some (probably most) of those in non-tt positions will get tt positions as time passes, though. Before the collapse, probably 80% got tt jobs.

In the social sciences, getting a TT job is near- near-impossible unless you get your PhD from a top program in your field AND publish 2x/year.

The academic job market is really dim right now. Especially for public universities, and California.

[calidancer2]

What are your research interests for grad school? It's very hard to weigh in here without knowing the discipline and specialization. There is quite a bit of variation in the humanities market; some fields are not in demand and other fields are really, really not in demand.

My interests would be in policy, international studies, security, diplomacy and the likes. What fields are really not in demand? Are MAs that are mostly in content related really treated that differently?

Well, I know the M.A. in International Affairs/Relations is a very good degree with great career options (especially if you go to a good school for it). I've heard that you do need relevant work experience in the field to be admitted, but some do admit without work experience. The PH.D. in IR is pretty much the same thing. Anything in International Relations is greatly valued nowadays. Schools like Tufts, Johns Hopkins, and Georgetown are excellent schools in this field.

Could you comment on getting a combined JD/MA in Intl Relations/Affairs? I'm currently a Peace Corps Volunteer and this combination really appeals to me, for obvious reasons. I do want to go into BigLaw right after graduation, however, and am worried that they'll think I'm skittish about biglaw by having the MA. I'd eventually like to work for the State Dept/govt or work in policy/legislation but want to make some $ in BigLaw before moving on. Thoughts?

[LawSchoolChampion]

What are your research interests for grad school? It's very hard to weigh in here without knowing the discipline and specialization. There is quite a bit of variation in the humanities market; some fields are not in demand and other fields are really, really not in demand.

My interests would be in policy, international studies, security, diplomacy and the likes. What fields are really not in demand? Are MAs that are mostly in content related really treated that differently?

Well, I know the M.A. in International Affairs/Relations is a very good degree with great career options (especially if you go to a good school for it). I've heard that you do need relevant work experience in the field to be admitted, but some do admit without work experience. The PH.D. in IR is pretty much the same thing. Anything in International Relations is greatly valued nowadays. Schools like Tufts, Johns Hopkins, and Georgetown are excellent schools in this field.

Could you comment on getting a combined JD/MA in Intl Relations/Affairs? I'm currently a Peace Corps Volunteer and this combination really appeals to me, for obvious reasons. I do want to go into BigLaw right after graduation, however, and am worried that they'll think I'm skittish about biglaw by having the MA. I'd eventually like to work for the State Dept/govt or work in policy/legislation but want to make some $ in BigLaw before moving on. Thoughts?

Most people in BigLaw don't work it for more than a few years, from my understanding. I cannot speak to your question though.

[R2-D2]

What are your research interests for grad school? It's very hard to weigh in here without knowing the discipline and specialization. There is quite a bit of variation in the humanities market; some fields are not in demand and other fields are really, really not in demand.

My interests would be in policy, international studies, security, diplomacy and the likes. What fields are really not in demand? Are MAs that are mostly in content related really treated that differently?

Well, I know the M.A. in International Affairs/Relations is a very good degree with great career options (especially if you go to a good school for it). I've heard that you do need relevant work experience in the field to be admitted, but some do admit without work experience. The PH.D. in IR is pretty much the same thing. Anything in International Relations is greatly valued nowadays. Schools like Tufts, Johns Hopkins, and Georgetown are excellent schools in this field.

Could you comment on getting a combined JD/MA in Intl Relations/Affairs? I'm currently a Peace Corps Volunteer and this combination really appeals to me, for obvious reasons. I do want to go into BigLaw right after graduation, however, and am worried that they'll think I'm skittish about biglaw by having the MA. I'd eventually like to work for the State Dept/govt or work in policy/legislation but want to make some $ in BigLaw before moving on. Thoughts?

They probably won't think you're skittish; they're exuberant about JD/MBA's, so I wouldn't see why they wouldn't be accepting of a JD/MA, in particular an MA in IR. Especially if you join an international/multinational law firm, you'll do very well with that.

[katesearches]

Well, I'm set on law school, and I could offer several reasons why I'd choose law school over grad school (it's a decision I had to make, too). Personally, there was always one path I was leaning towards more, and another path I had a lot of reservations towards. You guess it. After a lot of time weighing my decision, I went with one.

I know this might sound cheesy, but go with what you really want. As opposed to what may potentially give you later satisfaction as a better boost in getting a job like you mentioned. I have a handful of friends in law school/grad school, and of that handful, there's 4 of them that tried the whole law school thing, hated it, and went on to grad school, in varying degrees: one I know of went all the way, worked private sector, hated it, applied to ph.d. programs; two I know did one year, dropped out, then applied for his masters, etc. The one common thing among these friends is that from the beginning they preferred to do grad. school, and all had doubts about law school in the first place. somewhere along the line, they felt law school was a better investment (financially), although ultimately, they threw their hands up and went back to what they really wanted to do.

Also, there are 1-2 year MA programs in the fields you mentioned.

[calidancer2]

Could you comment on getting a combined JD/MA in Intl Relations/Affairs? I'm currently a Peace Corps Volunteer and this combination really appeals to me, for obvious reasons. I do want to go into BigLaw right after graduation, however, and am worried that they'll think I'm skittish about biglaw by having the MA. I'd eventually like to work for the State Dept/govt or work in policy/legislation but want to make some $ in BigLaw before moving on. Thoughts?

They probably won't think you're skittish; they're exuberant about JD/MBA's, so I wouldn't see why they wouldn't be accepting of a JD/MA, in particular an MA in IR. Especially if you join an international/multinational law firm, you'll do very well with that.

Oh, really? I thought the general TLS consensus was that JD/MBA's were a huge no-no/flashing red DONT HIRE for biglaw firms. At least, that's what I've read on here- I haven't seen it in practice and don't know if I believe that or not. I was interested in a JD/MBA for possibly pursuing GC somewhere down the line. I really am diverging in two paths with law school and just cannot decide with what to combine the JD.

[R2-D2]

Could you comment on getting a combined JD/MA in Intl Relations/Affairs? I'm currently a Peace Corps Volunteer and this combination really appeals to me, for obvious reasons. I do want to go into BigLaw right after graduation, however, and am worried that they'll think I'm skittish about biglaw by having the MA. I'd eventually like to work for the State Dept/govt or work in policy/legislation but want to make some $ in BigLaw before moving on. Thoughts?

They probably won't think you're skittish; they're exuberant about JD/MBA's, so I wouldn't see why they wouldn't be accepting of a JD/MA, in particular an MA in IR. Especially if you join an international/multinational law firm, you'll do very well with that.

Oh, really? I thought the general TLS consensus was that JD/MBA's were a huge no-no/flashing red DONT HIRE for biglaw firms. At least, that's what I've read on here- I haven't seen it in practice and don't know if I believe that or not. I was interested in a JD/MBA for possibly pursuing GC somewhere down the line. I really am diverging in two paths with law school and just cannot decide with what to combine the JD.

JD/MBA's are certainly not a "no-no", if anything, it's a great thing to do if you're able to do it, and firms will actually like you more for it. Firms like Goodwin Procter give $20K signing bonuses to JD/MBA's. Firms value that business experience, so a JD/MBA is an excellent combination.

[TheGreatWhiteHorse]

A JD/MBA is especially good if it is a nationally recognized MBA program. MSU, for instance, has a top 20 MBA program (though their law school is currently 84, I think). Kudos if you can handle the workload, though.

As far as the interest in academia...google "law professor meat market" if you havent already. It's easily as much of a dog fight as it is for JDs trying to land biglaw gigs.

[Perchik]

A JD/MBA is especially good if it is a nationally recognized MBA program. MSU, for instance, has a top 20 MBA program (though their law school is currently 84, I think). Kudos if you can handle the workload, though.

As far as the interest in academia...google "law professor meat market" if you havent already. It's easily as much of a dog fight as it is for JDs trying to land biglaw gigs.

Thanks. I just want to reiterate that when I talked about being a professor I do not mean being a law professor (I have no aspirations to teach at a law school at all). I just mean some humble ambitions to teach at a four year college, teaching something related to law or my BA work in political science.