How do I crush his dreams? Forum

RobotGardener · Post by **RobotGardener** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:10 am

I am a 1L at a T14. I have a friend that really wants to go to law school (probably more than I ever did) and took the LSAT twice now. He got a 151 the first time and a 154 the second time. Needless to say he only got into a local TTT and is looking at paying full tuition. He really wants to go and refuses to wait another year or take the lsat again. He has started asking me for advice about 0L prep and how to do well in law school. I want to gently tell him that he needs to abandon his dream of becoming a lawyer. I don't know how to tell him firmly (so he will listen to me) but still respect his feelings.

Am I better off saying nothing? Should I just help him get prepared for his TTTT? What do I do TLS?

FryBreadPower · Post by **FryBreadPower** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:14 am

Force him to spend 6 hours reading TTT or TTTT?! threads and provided commentary. Unless he is pathologically delusional he should start coming around.

Tanicius · Post by **Tanicius** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:45 am

Not sure that's the greatest advice. The problem with TTT-trashing threads is that the target audience perceives it (and justly so) as a personal attack on their identity/ego.

futurejdgirl · Post by **futurejdgirl** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:52 am

Have him read those NYT articles and blogs - maybe he'll listen to a "professional" opinion or someone with authority more? Better yet, take him to the law school and have him talk to the graduates there, who are most likely jaded, angry, depressed, and jobless.

bmore · Post by **bmore** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:12 am

Just send him here or have him PM MTal.

StarLightSpectre · Post by **StarLightSpectre** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:58 am

bmore wrote:Just send him here or have him PM MTal.

+1

Or have him read the "how I scored a 165/170+" threads. They motivated me to retake.

bmore · Post by **bmore** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:19 am

StarLightSpectre wrote:
bmore wrote:Just send him here or have him PM MTal.

+1

Or have him read the "how I scored a 165/170+" threads. They motivated me to retake.

That won't crush his dream

StarLightSpectre · Post by **StarLightSpectre** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:26 am

bmore wrote: That won't crush his dream

True, but he may consider retaking one more time with adequate preparation instead of giving 150k+ to TTT_T.

20130312 · Post by **20130312** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:48 am

Law School Transparency.

The Duck · Post by **The Duck** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:59 am

You don't. He's presumably an adult. Tell him how important the LSAT is and how unlikely he is to get a job. If he still wants to go, let him.

t14fanboy · Post by **t14fanboy** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:03 am

The Duck wrote:You don't. He's presumably an adult. Tell him how important the LSAT is and how unlikely he is to get a job. If he still wants to go, let him.

+1

PitchO20 · Post by **PitchO20** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:32 am

Unfortunately, if you want to preserve your friendship, you really can't say anything. More likely than not it's just going to cause resentment.

RobotGardener · Post by **RobotGardener** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:36 am

PitchO20 wrote:Unfortunately, if you want to preserve your friendship, you really can't say anything. More likely than not it's just going to cause resentment.

This is what I have been thinking. As others have stated he is an adult and should make decisions for himself. However, he is a really nice guy and also has a baby on the way. This is the wrong move for him financially and he has delusions of making 160k from his TTT. I need to at least temper his expectations a little bit.

DCDuck · Post by **DCDuck** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:50 am

Having him talk to current students at the school is a good suggestion.

hurldes · Post by **hurldes** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:53 am

You owe it to your friend (and his child) to warn him of the huge mistake he could make.

I was in a similar situation last year around this time... a buddy of mine was thinking of attending a TTTT local school. I knew it was a bad move, so I explained to him that the employment stats the school puts out are deceptive, and that few of that school's graduates actually find legal employment. Even though it sounds bad/elitist, it really is all about the rankings.

I also had a friend at this TTTT school who told me that the school fails the bottom 30% of the class after 1L year, and that of the entire 2L class, only one student had a summer associate position at a law firmed lined up. I passed this info along.

He eventually decided to retake the LSAT, but he never did discover how much valuable wisdom this site has to offer.

The Duck · Post by **The Duck** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:55 am

hurldes wrote:You owe it to your friend (and his child) to warn him of the huge mistake he could make.

I was in a similar situation last year around this time... a buddy of mine was thinking of attending a TTTT local school. I knew it was a bad move, so I explained to him that the employment stats the school puts out are deceptive, and that few of that school's graduates actually find legal employment. Even though it sounds bad/elitist, it really is all about the rankings.

I also had a friend at this TTTT school who told me that the school fails the bottom 30% of the class after 1L year, and that of the entire 2L class, only one student had a summer associate position at a law firmed lined up. I passed this info along.

He eventually decided to retake the LSAT, but he never did discover how much valuable wisdom this site has to offer.

There is a difference between educating and lecturing though. At some point, you can only present the info and if he wants to go...that's his decision. You can't push too hard or too far or it won't be a problem because they won't even be friends anymore.

hurldes · Post by **hurldes** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:09 pm

The Duck wrote:
hurldes wrote:You owe it to your friend (and his child) to warn him of the huge mistake he could make.

I was in a similar situation last year around this time... a buddy of mine was thinking of attending a TTTT local school. I knew it was a bad move, so I explained to him that the employment stats the school puts out are deceptive, and that few of that school's graduates actually find legal employment. Even though it sounds bad/elitist, it really is all about the rankings.

I also had a friend at this TTTT school who told me that the school fails the bottom 30% of the class after 1L year, and that of the entire 2L class, only one student had a summer associate position at a law firmed lined up. I passed this info along.

He eventually decided to retake the LSAT, but he never did discover how much valuable wisdom this site has to offer.
There is a difference between educating and lecturing though. At some point, you can only present the info and if he wants to go...that's his decision. You can't push too hard or too far or it won't be a problem because they won't even be friends anymore.

I agree with you. It worked with my friend.. it may not work with his friend. But I think that if the OP really cares about his friend and genuinely wants to help him, he can be brazen without offending him. He just needs to do it tactfully/carefully.

dkb17xzx · Post by **dkb17xzx** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:11 pm

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/c ... law-school

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

I second the posters above about reading TLS forums. If you are concerned about how he might perceive the negative attacks and the trolls, you might want to sit down with him and read through the forums together (assuming you have time). Furthermore, there are also many " Accepted at T1 school w/ money vs retake" polls - you might wanna show him those as well and point out that despite acceptances at better schools, there are individuals who are retaking to try and get into better schools, with their assumption being that getting a decent job will be difficult from that particular school.

T00L · Post by **T00L** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:12 pm

A hammer is a tool that is good at crushing. Unfortunately, hammers are not good at letting people down softly.

splbagel · Post by **splbagel** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:17 pm

One way to spin it nicely would be to flatter him -- "I know how smart you are. That LSAT score doesn't reflect your ability..."

RobotGardener · Post by **RobotGardener** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:39 pm

splbagel wrote:One way to spin it nicely would be to flatter him -- "I know how smart you are. That LSAT score doesn't reflect your ability..."

I like this. I am definitely working this into the conversation. His LSAT score is understandably a sensitive subject.

Br3v · Post by **Br3v** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:52 pm

You can't watch your friend run up a 200k tab then crash and burn in 3 yrs. Gotta handle It now

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:58 pm

With glee.

GimmeRoom · Post by **GimmeRoom** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:11 pm

Heh one of my best friends is currently in a similar scenario (no child on the way though). He asked me for "advice" on what he should do and I put in 100% to make a convincing argument for why he shouldn't choose between TTT x and TTT y at ridiculous prices and should take another year to retake the LSAT and improve his cycle. 1.5 lifetilting hours later, he came out with "It is what it is, and I'm going to decide between the schools anyway. I'm not taking a year off because I just don't *get* the LSAT and don't want to waste a year. Besides, I'd be much better at law school exams anyway because they're not skill-based, but are based on concrete cases that I'd be better at studying for" or something like that. The "it is what it is" finally did it for me, if he refuses to acknowledge that he's still in control of his decision, then there's really no point in me convincing him otherwise. Hopefully he survives.

spleenworship · Post by **spleenworship** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:07 pm

You have to make a good faith effort to try using what people here suggested, but accept going in that he is unlikely to change his mind.

Also, if it wasn't already suggested, try sending him to employment and school threads on Abovethelaw.com

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