How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT? Forum

[Gail]

With all the media coverage you would think that they would have to accept everyone who applies to keep their class sizes the same. Who would still apply to these schools?

[bk1]

Don't walk into a 7-11, the number of people buying lottery tickets might astound you.

[T1hopeful]

With all the media coverage you would think that they would have to accept everyone who applies to keep their class sizes the same. Who would still apply to these schools?

There will always be people with 3.0 GPAs and LSAT scores in the 150s. Some will be persuaded not to go to law school because of all the recent negative media coverage (applications are down across the board). Yet others have completely made up their minds and will not be convinced otherwise. These are the ones that are still applying.

[20130312]

Special snowflakes that were born and bred for success and achievement?

[punkyg0608]

With all the media coverage you would think that they would have to accept everyone who applies to keep their class sizes the same. Who would still apply to these schools?

There will always be people with 3.0 GPAs and LSAT scores in the 150s. Some will be persuaded not to go to law school because of all the recent negative media coverage (applications are down across the board). Yet others have completely made up their minds and will not be convinced otherwise. These are the ones that are still applying.

That's not completely fair. There are also some people like me who are dead-set on a certain city and would do fine with a regional TTT if the price is right (aka free).

[jared6180]

That's not completely fair. There are also some people like me who are dead-set on a certain city and would do fine with a regional TTT if the price is right (aka free).

This is true. If, and only if I was ready to settle in Kansas forever, I would let my GPA slide and stop studying for the LSAT. My numbers, based on diagnostic LSAT, are good enough to get into my local TTT and work for the government for the rest of my life, however I am tired of where I am, and long for the exposure to another city, state or region...so I continue to study and aim for T14 or T20 schools.

[MrPapagiorgio]

With all the media coverage you would think that they would have to accept everyone who applies to keep their class sizes the same. Who would still apply to these schools?

There will always be people with 3.0 GPAs and LSAT scores in the 150s. Some will be persuaded not to go to law school because of all the recent negative media coverage (applications are down across the board). Yet others have completely made up their minds and will not be convinced otherwise. These are the ones that are still applying.

That's not completely fair. There are also some people like me who are dead-set on a certain city and would do fine with a regional TTT if the price is right (aka free).

Yea pretty much. In most cases, a TTT is a bad idea. But there are many regional TTTs that don't face the competition that TTTs in major markets do (re: NYLS, Touro, TJLS). And if you can go for free with reasonable stipulations or none at all, the only thing you really are losing are the opportunity costs for 3 years (provided that you don't get a law job after graduation). And let's face it, many of the majors that apply to law school (e.g. poli sci, sociology, history) would really not have many opportunity costs anyway.

[username08]

My buddy scored in the high 150s. He has a solid GPA so I tried to convince him to retake the LSAT and reapply next year but he wouldn't budge and applied to law schools anyway. In his case his parents seem willing to pay sticker even at a TTT school, but clearly some people really are dead set on going to law school no matter what and no matter where.

[RaleighStClair]

That's not completely fair. There are also some people like me who are dead-set on a certain city and would do fine with a regional TTT if the price is right (aka free).

This is true. If, and only if I was ready to settle in Kansas forever, I would let my GPA slide and stop studying for the LSAT. My numbers, based on diagnostic LSAT, are good enough to get into my local TTT and work for the government for the rest of my life, however I am tired of where I am, and long for the exposure to another city, state or region...so I continue to study and aim for T14 or T20 schools.

Um....what TTT guarantees you gov't work? And can I still apply???

This thread is ridiculous.

[Paul Campos]

That's not completely fair. There are also some people like me who are dead-set on a certain city and would do fine with a regional TTT if the price is right (aka free).

This is true. If, and only if I was ready to settle in Kansas forever, I would let my GPA slide and stop studying for the LSAT. My numbers, based on diagnostic LSAT, are good enough to get into my local TTT and work for the government for the rest of my life, however I am tired of where I am, and long for the exposure to another city, state or region...so I continue to study and aim for T14 or T20 schools.

Um....what TTT guarantees you gov't work? And can I still apply???

This thread is ridiculous.

The way it works is that if you go to a low-ranked law school and don't get a job with a law firm you get to be a lawyer for the government, which means you're paid $75K a year to work 35 hours a week, plus after ten years all your law school debt is automatically discharged. It's a pretty sweet deal.

[jared6180]

The way it works is that if you go to a low-ranked law school and don't get a job with a law firm you get to be a lawyer for the government, which means you're paid $75K a year to work 35 hours a week, plus after ten years all your law school debt is automatically discharged. It's a pretty sweet deal.

No body said it was guaranteed, but I know attending the lower ranked of the two law schools in Kansas will likely doom you to government work or unemployment, unless you are in the top 5% of your class, and nobody can know they will be there. 23% are represented at lawschooltransparency.com...

WOW! $75k a year? I'd like to work in your government office, because around here working for the state will start you off at about $40-45k, and the city isn't much better. Fed gov jobs in the state are only paying about $50-60k. From what I hear from the state appeals court nobody works less than 40 hrs/week, and most work in stuffy offices and hate their jobs. They make just enough to pay student loan debt and live in apartments while driving their 1995 Dodge Neon.

My point is more that the government jobs in my area seem to be the very last thing anybody wants to do. Some go to Private practice and make $50-60k/year, and again those I have talked to are miserable. The high end of the class, the 5%, might go to Kansas City or Wichita and make decent money, but outside of that you are stuck out here in Kansas. I would encourage anyone in Kansas to forget the TTT option, and at the very least try for the TT option with really inexpensive in-state tuition, lower cost than the TTT, and closer ties to the KC market. My view, for ME, is that the TTT isn't an option, and the TT is only an option if I completely bomb the LSAT, which anybody could do...

[Tiago Splitter]

With all the media coverage you would think that they would have to accept everyone who applies to keep their class sizes the same. Who would still apply to these schools?

There will always be people with 3.0 GPAs and LSAT scores in the 150s. Some will be persuaded not to go to law school because of all the recent negative media coverage (applications are down across the board). Yet others have completely made up their minds and will not be convinced otherwise. These are the ones that are still applying.

Unfortunately many of those people haven't had someone even try to convince them. Most people not on TLS still think going to any law school is a sure ticket to riches.

[Grizz]

The way it works is that if you go to a low-ranked law school and don't get a job with a law firm you get to be a lawyer for the government, which means you're paid $75K a year to work 35 hours a week, plus after ten years all your law school debt is automatically discharged. It's a pretty sweet deal.

If you're lucky enough to find government that is actually hiring ITE. Also more like $40k. 10 yr loan forgiveness is solid though.

[jk2011]

That's not completely fair. There are also some people like me who are dead-set on a certain city and would do fine with a regional TTT if the price is right (aka free).

This is true. If, and only if I was ready to settle in Kansas forever, I would let my GPA slide and stop studying for the LSAT. My numbers, based on diagnostic LSAT, are good enough to get into my local TTT and work for the government for the rest of my life, however I am tired of where I am, and long for the exposure to another city, state or region...so I continue to study and aim for T14 or T20 schools.

Um....what TTT guarantees you gov't work? And can I still apply???

This thread is ridiculous.

The way it works is that if you go to a low-ranked law school and don't get a job with a law firm you get to be a lawyer for the government, which means you're paid $75K a year to work 35 hours a week, plus after ten years all your law school debt is automatically discharged . It's a pretty sweet deal.

Are you sure about this? I don't think law school debt can be removed like this. But I could be wrong??

[jk2011]

The way it works is that if you go to a low-ranked law school and don't get a job with a law firm you get to be a lawyer for the government, which means you're paid $75K a year to work 35 hours a week, plus after ten years all your law school debt is automatically discharged. It's a pretty sweet deal.

If you're lucky enough to find government that is actually hiring ITE. Also more like $40k. 10 yr loan forgiveness is solid though.

Is the 10 year loan forgiveness only for government work?

[Grizz]

10 yr govt/PI IBR is real bro

[jk2011]

10 yr govt/PI IBR is real bro

That is solid. I was under impression that it was only the top schools that could provide LRAP.

[YourCaptain]

campos is trolling y'all

[splitbrain]

10 yr govt/PI IBR is real bro

That is solid. I was under impression that it was only the top schools that could provide LRAP.

LRAP = Loan Repayment Assistance Partybus

I *might* be wrong on what the P stands for.

However, this IS a different program than the 10 year forgiveness for 10 years of public service (non-profit or government work).

LRAP is school and/or state-specific.

Here is a good resource for LRAP:
http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/resour ... hool-lraps

LRAP basically assists you with your IBR payments for those 10 years after graduation.

[Paul Campos]

Since sarcasm doesn't come through well on the net, I was of course kidding about the "sweet deal." In most places it's harder to get a government job than a firm job right now, by far. Also, keep in mind that government loan forgiveness under IBR isn't a contractual right -- it's something that could be changed at any time. More important, loan forgiveness is no substitute for actually having an income.

[Gail]

Since sarcasm doesn't come through well on the net, I was of course kidding about the "sweet deal." In most places it's harder to get a government job than a firm job right now, by far. Also, keep in mind that government loan forgiveness under IBR isn't a contractual right -- it's something that could be changed at any time. More important, loan forgiveness is no substitute for actually having an income.

That's the thing isn't it? A law degree is really restrictive as far as what you can do with it. If not a private practice job, government. Both are not hiring at peak right now, so what do you do if you strike out on both, which is considerably possible?

Good paying small firm work requires experience, as does in-house, at least from what I've been told here.

[Paul Campos]

Since sarcasm doesn't come through well on the net, I was of course kidding about the "sweet deal." In most places it's harder to get a government job than a firm job right now, by far. Also, keep in mind that government loan forgiveness under IBR isn't a contractual right -- it's something that could be changed at any time. More important, loan forgiveness is no substitute for actually having an income.

That's the thing isn't it? A law degree is really restrictive as far as what you can do with it. If not a private practice job, government. Both are not hiring at peak right now, so what do you do if you strike out on both, which is considerably possible?

Good paying small firm work requires experience, as does in-house, at least from what I've been told here.

Probably more than half of the people graduating from law school right now are not going to have real legal careers. They'll wash out of the profession altogether within a few years of graduating. This includes significant numbers of people going to the hallowed T-14. If you don't have a job at graduation (something that right now is true for maybe 30% of the class in the bottom half of the T-14) there's a serious risk you'll never get a real legal job. And people who have Big Law jobs at graduation are far from home free. A lot of those people won't have those jobs three to five years down the line, and they're likely to end as unemployed lawyers. Any halfway decent job they apply for will feature dozens and often hundreds of applicants, many of whom will be as or more qualified than they are.

[Tiago Splitter]

Probably more than half of the people graduating from law school right now are not going to have real legal careers. They'll wash out of the profession altogether within a few years of graduating. This includes significant numbers of people going to the hallowed T-14. If you don't have a job at graduation (something that right now is true for maybe 30% of the class in the bottom half of the T-14) there's a serious risk you'll never get a real legal job. And people who have Big Law jobs at graduation are far from home free. A lot of those people won't have those jobs three to five years down the line, and they're likely to end as unemployed lawyers. Any halfway decent job they apply for will feature dozens and often hundreds of applicants, many of whom will be as or more qualified than they are.

How awkward does it get in the faculty lunchroom at your school?

[splitbrain]

Since sarcasm doesn't come through well on the net, I was of course kidding about the "sweet deal." In most places it's harder to get a government job than a firm job right now, by far. Also, keep in mind that government loan forgiveness under IBR isn't a contractual right -- it's something that could be changed at any time. More important, loan forgiveness is no substitute for actually having an income.

That's the thing isn't it? A law degree is really restrictive as far as what you can do with it. If not a private practice job, government. Both are not hiring at peak right now, so what do you do if you strike out on both, which is considerably possible?

Good paying small firm work requires experience, as does in-house, at least from what I've been told here.

Probably more than half of the people graduating from law school right now are not going to have real legal careers. They'll wash out of the profession altogether within a few years of graduating. This includes significant numbers of people going to the hallowed T-14. If you don't have a job at graduation (something that right now is true for maybe 30% of the class in the bottom half of the T-14) there's a serious risk you'll never get a real legal job. And people who have Big Law jobs at graduation are far from home free. A lot of those people won't have those jobs three to five years down the line, and they're likely to end as unemployed lawyers. Any halfway decent job they apply for will feature dozens and often hundreds of applicants, many of whom will be as or more qualified than they are.

[Citation needed]

[splitbrain]

Since sarcasm doesn't come through well on the net, I was of course kidding about the "sweet deal." In most places it's harder to get a government job than a firm job right now, by far. Also, keep in mind that government loan forgiveness under IBR isn't a contractual right -- it's something that could be changed at any time. More important, loan forgiveness is no substitute for actually having an income.

Absolutely agree.

However, those interested in public service have quite a few tools at their disposal, even ITE. Additionally, as you correctly pointed out, really none are contractual rights:

- IBR reduces the monthly payments drastically obviously at the expense of extending the repayment period (not an excuse for getting into massive amounts of debt, but this DOES help the recent grad with a lower-than-expected salary. Nobody wants to pay more than they should, but it's nice to know this exists should you need it, especially for PI). Additionally, it's not like this program prohibits one from making larger payments than are required should one choose to utilize it.
- LRAP does not exist at every school, but there is plenty of information available as to which schools provide it and what their terms and conditions are. These programs are, of course, at risk to some extent, but this is something you can talk directly to the school about. Many are privately funded by donations and fundraising...
- 10 year forgiveness is nice and all, but that's a long commitment and, again, without guarantees. Additionally, as Professor Campos pointed out, it's hardly a substitute for a nice income. (Ideal for the PI candidate who would think of this as another potential safety option, but if you're considering PI because this exists, you may wish to consider further...)
- Above all else, there are plenty of scholarships available for those interested in PI (in addition to merit and need based scholarships) - this is something to talk to your target school about. Many of these are provided by third parties / private funding and will thus require further applications/essays.

*Edited for content and grammar...also I'm bored and can't sleep...huzzah.