Ivy v. Public v. CC Forum

[bport hopeful]

I was wondering if the idea that it doesnt matter what kind of UG institution you went to was anecdotal or if there were some statistic behind this?

This is to settle a bet.

[bport hopeful]

Cmon.

[justinp]

Disclaimer: clueless 0L here.

That said, based on conversations with various law students and lawyers from a variety of backgrounds (big state schools of various reputations, Ivies, top liberal arts, etc.) there are a TON of folks from elite colleges/universities in the top schools. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's an advantage in admissions; it could be that those people are overrepresented due to the fact that they are extremely smart, disciplined, and good at standardized tests-- which allows them to attend an elite college/university in the first place.

So they're at T14 schools because they're smart disciplined people who do well on standardized tests, not because they went to a top UG institution. And conversely, there are plenty of people from less-prestigious institutions who are also smart and disciplined, but for whatever reason didn't go to a highly selective UG institution.

That said, I've got no idea what I'm talking about.

[bk1]

I'd ascribe it to the fact that the only true outliers on LSN are URM's.

[PennQuaker]

The answer is no. The LSAT is the great equalizer

[AreJay711]

How is someone supposed to answer this unless they simultaneously went to both a great and crappy undergrad and then applied under two personas to the same schools... or did a regression study of LSN in their spare time.

[bostonlawchick]

FWIW, I went to a community college for three years, it didn't really seem to hurt me.

[Pato_09]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

[Na_Swatch]

Generally:

1) It doesn't matter that much.

2) It still matters more than the TLS exaggeration of: HYS or its all the same. Basically, you'll get a boost or neg. on a sliding scale depending on how difficult the school was, its basic academic perception, etc.

Still GPA and LSAT are going to account for most of it.

[johansantana21]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

Orly

[bdubs]

I think it matters more for reverse splitters than traditional splitters. If you're a decent amount above the 50% mark for GPA and you went to an ivy or equivalent, I think you are much more likely to gain admission than the community college or avg. state school kid.

[monkey85]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

This is generally true.

Of course there are a few more pieces to the puzzle. But outside of T14, work experience + ivy undergrad + Top 1/3 will get you further than most people think in the SA hunt.

As for law school admissions, GPA is all that matters. School irrelevant.

[AreJay711]

I think it matters more for reverse splitters than traditional splitters. If you're a decent amount above the 50% mark for GPA and you went to an ivy or equivalent, I think you are much more likely to gain admission than the community college or avg. state school kid.

Yeah but a 3.5 gets you top 10% at some state school but is around median at an Ivy so they are not likely looking at the same GPA.

[094320]

..

[Helmholtz]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

Orly

"Significantly" is an overstatement. From what I've seen, it matters as much for OCI hiring as it does for law-school admissions. I can definitely think off the top of my head people from outstanding UGs (think HYP, Oxford, etc) who underperformed for their class rank while people from crappy or semi-crappy state schools vastly overperformed their class rank. I really could not see much of a correlation at all.

edit: this is in reference to OCI hiring, I can definitely see it making more of a difference for 1L summer hiring, when employers have less to go off of

[johansantana21]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

Orly

"Significantly" is an overstatement. From what I've seen, it matters as much for OCI hiring as it does for law-school admissions. I can definitely think off the top of my head people from outstanding UGs (think HYP, Oxford, etc) who underperformed for their class rank while people from crappy or semi-crappy state schools vastly overperformed their class rank. I really could not see much of a correlation at all.

edit: this is in reference to OCI hiring, I can definitely see it making more of a difference for 1L summer hiring, when employers have less to go off of

Maybe it matters more for lower T1 schools?

[RVP11]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

In my experience, no. And when there is a boost, it's restricted to HYP.

Just as in law school admissions, having a recognizable Ivy degree will HELP, but it's way less important than the hard numbers. I don't know anyone who would trade .05 LS GPA for Ivy undergrad, even HYP undergrad. On the other hand, there are tons of people who would trade .05 LS GPA for more work experience or better interviewing personality.

FWIW, I went TTT UG -> T14 -> V5 and V10 offers with borderline law school grades. No one ever mentioned my fantttastttic undergraduate pedigree. And with every few exceptions, no one I knew did much better or worse at OCI based on their undergraduate school.

[johansantana21]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

In my experience, no. And when there is a boost, it's restricted to HYP.

Just as in law school admissions, having a recognizable Ivy degree will HELP, but it's way less important than the hard numbers. I don't know anyone who would trade .05 LS GPA for Ivy undergrad, even HYP undergrad. On the other hand, there are tons of people who would trade .05 LS GPA for more work experience or better interviewing personality.

FWIW, I went TTT UG -> T14 -> V5 and V10 offers with borderline law school grades. No one ever mentioned my fantttastttic undergraduate pedigree. And with every few exceptions, no one I knew did much better or worse at OCI based on their undergraduate school.

What do you mean borderline law school grades?

[Helmholtz]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

Orly

"Significantly" is an overstatement. From what I've seen, it matters as much for OCI hiring as it does for law-school admissions. I can definitely think off the top of my head people from outstanding UGs (think HYP, Oxford, etc) who underperformed for their class rank while people from crappy or semi-crappy state schools vastly overperformed their class rank. I really could not see much of a correlation at all.

edit: this is in reference to OCI hiring, I can definitely see it making more of a difference for 1L summer hiring, when employers have less to go off of

Maybe it matters more for lower T1 schools?

It might, but I don't see why it would. Yeah, people who went to HYP for UG might stick out more at lower T1 schools since there are less of them, but you could also say that people who went to shitty state schools would stick out like a sore thumb at a T10 school, and I just didn't see that being the case. Even firms that made it seem like they cared about what you did during UG (e.g. Cravath, who asks for a UG transcript at OCI) didn't seem to place any kind of emphasis on where you did undergrad.

[RVP11]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

In my experience, no. And when there is a boost, it's restricted to HYP.

Just as in law school admissions, having a recognizable Ivy degree will HELP, but it's way less important than the hard numbers. I don't know anyone who would trade .05 LS GPA for Ivy undergrad, even HYP undergrad. On the other hand, there are tons of people who would trade .05 LS GPA for more work experience or better interviewing personality.

FWIW, I went TTT UG -> T14 -> V5 and V10 offers with borderline law school grades. No one ever mentioned my fantttastttic undergraduate pedigree. And with every few exceptions, no one I knew did much better or worse at OCI based on their undergraduate school.

What do you mean borderline law school grades?

Borderline, from my school, for V5 and V10 firms.

[PennQuaker]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

You simply don't know of what you speak(type.) As someonewho actually attends an Ivy League school, the alumni reach is of course great, but law firms hire PRIMARILY based on the Law School you attended (many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads)

[RVP11]

(many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads)

Quick, name a top firm that only hires Ivy League law school grads.

[redsoxfan2495]

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

You simply don't know of what you speak(type.) As someonewho actually attends an Ivy League school, the alumni reach is of course great, but law firms hire PRIMARILY based on the Law School you attended (many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads)

Attending a top school gives you much better odds at landing a job at a top firm, but I don't think any firm really cares whether the school you went to is actually a member of the Ivy League. Do you really think there are firms out there that have a strong preference for Cornell/Penn/Columbia grads over Stanford grads?

[Pato_09]

many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads.

Lol. This is ridiculously wrong.

[ladybug89]

I think it matters more for reverse splitters than traditional splitters. If you're a decent amount above the 50% mark for GPA and you went to an ivy or equivalent, I think you are much more likely to gain admission than the community college or avg. state school kid.

I think this is on the mark. Good LSAT + HYPS undergrad (and extra for URMs) can go a long way to boost a lower GPA. That's what I've observed from personal experience at my ug.