15 more law schools to be sued Forum

[lawbanshee]

Also, as a Chicagoland person I can't tell you how many people have said I should go to John Marshall I did note before in a thread here that I've been surprised at how many employed graduates I've met in the non-profit/government world in this area. Vanwinkle did point out that Daley was apparently an alum and the way politics go in Chicago, that's really all that's necessary.

This is so delusional it really renders one speechless.

[observationalist]

FYI I know at least one of the articles referenced it, but the attorneys (Dave Anziska and Jesse Strauss) planning to file these cases are predicting that by the end of 2012, almost every law school will be hit with a complaint. They later scaled back that claim and said that 'probably the T-14' is safe, although if you look at some of the T-14 schools you'll still see that the median salaries exclude about 15-20% of private sector graduates (presumably most of whom are in temporary or part-time gigs that don't permit an annual salary calculation), in which case there may still be liability for hiding those outcomes and pretending everyone in the private sector made out well. Not every complaint will be a class action, but the combination of the "everybody is doing it" defense and the overwhelming number of attorneys looking for work would seem to suggest that these cases are going to pop up more frequently. Class actions are just the most efficient way to do it. The real questions are whether any court will certify a class, and if so in what jurisdictions. If that happens even once I think we'll see a lot of the big shops hopping on board and really investing the time and resources it will take to force these things into a settlement. For now they have stayed out of the race to file, which I assume means they don't have much confidence about class certification.

/Not a legal opinion.

[lawbanshee]

It's great to see these schools FINALLY getting some serious heat for their immoral, fraudulent practices. Their outright lies and distortions would be more than enough to get any individual attorney or even a firm disbarred/shut down, as a lawyer is to avoid EVEN THE APPEARANCE of impropriety. It is inexcusable, reprehnsible, and simply downright wrong to continue enticing 22 year olds to take on crushing loads of debt to emerge with a worthless degree that has absoultely no market value whatosever.

My second-tier alma mater will be joining the list very soon, as a fellow alum has a Facebook page started and is really trying to get a large group together for maximum impact. I'm going to be doing some of the PR (i.e., getting local papers to cover this, etc) once the complaint is filed, so that we cause the school maximum discomfort, shame, bad PR, and embarassment. I also want/hope to encourage current students to drop out or withdraw if they missed the OCI boat or have bad 1st semester One L grades.

Dropouts are the key "wild card" that could really kick the teeth of the TTT's in. They hand out lots of schollys to lure in decent LSAT/GPA kids and count on the bottom feeders paying full boat to finance same. If everyone (or even a substainial %) of the kids who struck out at OCI bailed (which at non Top 14 schools is nearly 75-95% of the class), the schools would crumble very quickly. Students really need to understand that if you miss OCI/Biglaw you'll be a doc reviewer at $15 to $30 an hour no bennies, or work some abysmal Shitlaw scholck firm in a strip mall for 35 K no bennies. It's called "bimodal salary distribution," and is an irrefutable fact.

Staying in after a Biglaw OCI ding/strikeout and prayng for a miracle like some midlaw job or gov't gig/PI is just sticking one's head in the sand. Much better to just cut the cord and not throw good $$$ after bad. Treat One Hell as a sunk cost, regroup, and move on. You lost the lotto, so toss your "ticket" in the trash- don't frame it!

The only way to fight these toilets is to hit them in the wallet. The deans, profs, and admins earn stratosphereic salaries, salaries that are in no way justified given the dismal employment metrics most of these toilets vomit out.

The tide is really turning now, and the private TTT's charging 50 K a year won't survive another 10 years in my estimation. Hell, to enroll in ANY law school right now requires borderline insanity given the terrible overall economy and the fact that nearly all attonreys (even the "successful" ones) loathe and despise this industry and regret ever getting mixed up in it.

[Aberzombie1892]

Lately, a lot of posters/trolls have been over the top with the big law/doc review being the only options for law school graduates.

[Indifferent]

Lately, a lot of posters/trolls have been over the top with the big law/doc review being the only options for law school graduates.

You'll notice that most if not all of these posters/trolls work in the NYC market. Although I am not very familiar with that market (other than what I've gleaned from TLS), it seems that in the NYC market is over-saturated with qualified lawyers and tends to have less opportunities for young, inexperienced recent graduates than many secondary markets. Many graduates from NYC-centric schools who would be going into prosecution, state judicial clerkships, public defense, public interest, small to mid-sized firms, state government agencies, etc in a secondary market are not able to find those types of opportunities in NYC because either a) the few positions that are available are flooded with qualified applications from recent graduates or b) are being taken or occupied by lawyers recently lateraling from their 3rd-5th year at a large law firm or other qualified lawyers who have otherwise decided to change careers. Therefore, it is much less likely that a graduate from an NYC-centric school like Cardozo is going to have the opportunities available in the NYC market that would be available to a recent graduate of, say, UGA in the Georgia market.

[lawbanshee]

Many graduates from NYC-centric schools who would be going into prosecution, state judicial clerkships, public defense, public interest, small to mid-sized firms, state government agencies, etc in a secondary market are not able to find those types of opportunities in NYC because either a) the few positions that are available are flooded with qualified applications from recent graduates or b) are being taken or occupied by lawyers recently lateraling from their 3rd-5th year at a large law firm or other qualified lawyers who have otherwise decided to change careers. Therefore, it is much less likely that a graduate from an NYC-centric school like Cardozo is going to have the opportunities available in the NYC market that would be available to a recent graduate of, say, UGA in the Georgia market.

Things in Georgia not looking so good either:


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And if you consider South Jersey a "secondary" market, layoffs have hit Camden NJ (america's most dangerous city BTW) very hard:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/0 ... en_co.html


Hence many, many kidws who miss Biglaw will find a seat on the doc review floor their only employment option.


As for doing doc review in a secondary market, well, read it and weep:

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[Indifferent]

Many graduates from NYC-centric schools who would be going into prosecution, state judicial clerkships, public defense, public interest, small to mid-sized firms, state government agencies, etc in a secondary market are not able to find those types of opportunities in NYC because either a) the few positions that are available are flooded with qualified applications from recent graduates or b) are being taken or occupied by lawyers recently lateraling from their 3rd-5th year at a large law firm or other qualified lawyers who have otherwise decided to change careers. Therefore, it is much less likely that a graduate from an NYC-centric school like Cardozo is going to have the opportunities available in the NYC market that would be available to a recent graduate of, say, UGA in the Georgia market.

Things in Georgia not looking so good either:

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I think you're misreading my comment: I was not suggesting GA (or any other secondary market) is insulated from the effects of the recession, I was just making an observation. People on TLS/xoxo circa 2007-08, when the market was (relatively) good, were still making threads like: "Struck out at OCI: Doc Review or Drop Out?" which would elicit hordes of responses like "you forgot option 3: killself" for the same reasons I mentioned earlier, mainly because most TLSers are focused on trends in the NYC market.

[DoubleChecks]

You're exaggerating when you say it has to be t-14 or nothing. All those schools are in the bottom, nowhere near T-20 or T-30.

1/3rd of NYU's graduating class is unemployed. How will they pay back 200k in debt?

Law School Report at law.com shows that 44% of NYU grads are employed NLJ250. NYU has a reputation for PI being pretty solid. I cannot imagine that PI, shit-law, clerking, academics, continued ed, non-law business, etc do not make up for more than 22% of their class.

That shouldn't really count in that list right? I mean, we have this implicit assumption that when we say "employed" we mean in the legal field, right? Where you use your JD, as to not render going to law school virtually useless? lol

For all the others, can you believe it makes up say 36% of the rest of the class? I imagine the % must be smaller than those going into biglaw from NYU...which would still mean 1/5 are not utilizing their JD degree (these aren't actual figures, just wondering if you'd "believe" it). Now it might be a bit rosier than that, I don't know, but the fact that it could quite possibly be around these stated figures at NYU was really the poster's point.

[lawbanshee]

Lately, a lot of posters/trolls have been over the top with the big law/doc review being the only options for law school graduates.

"Over the top"? Um, OKAY. Please enlighten us all re: how many bar exams you've taken/passed, how long you've been admitted to said bars, how many interviews you've been on, how long and thorough your job search has been, etc.

Do you think the half dozen or so doc review jobs off craigslist that are posted on here are staffed only with Cooley, NYLS, and Brooklyn Law anchormen? Do you think attorneys have the leverage to negotiate these abysmal rates/working conditions upwards? Do you think the agencies have even the slightest bit of trouble packing these dungeons to the rafters within 10 minutes of posting these CL ads?

What's "over the top" is how utterly, jaw-dropping horrific the situation is out here. As I said, I'm on a gig with 150 temp lawyers paying 30/hr flat and it was fully staffed w/in 2 hours (I know this b/c I texted a buddy about it, but by the time he called it was already full, and this was exactly 2 hours after I got on it). And at the time I applied the ad had been on CL for all of 15 minutes.

It gets worse: they added 50 new reviewers today to the gig, since they want to wrap it up quickly. The oversupply of attorneys is beyond obscene, yet you guys somehow seem to have great difficulty appreciating the iron laws of supply/demand. Outside biglaw there really is no legal "market", just hordes of temps and a tiny handful of kids who got lucky or had connections to get the mysterious and seldom-seen entry-level "midlaw."

[icedflames]

Lately, a lot of posters/trolls have been over the top with the big law/doc review being the only options for law school graduates.

"Over the top"? Um, OKAY. Please enlighten us all re: how many bar exams you've taken/passed, how long you've been admitted to said bars, how many interviews you've been on, how long and thorough your job search has been, etc.

Do you think the half dozen or so doc review jobs off craigslist that are posted on here are staffed only with Cooley, NYLS, and Brooklyn Law anchormen? Do you think attorneys have the leverage to negotiate these abysmal rates/working conditions upwards? Do you think the agencies have even the slightest bit of trouble packing these dungeons to the rafters within 10 minutes of posting these CL ads?

What's "over the top" is how utterly, jaw-dropping horrific the situation is out here. As I said, I'm on a gig with 150 temp lawyers paying 30/hr flat and it was fully staffed w/in 2 hours (I know this b/c I texted a buddy about it, but by the time he called it was already full, and this was exactly 2 hours after I got on it). And at the time I applied the ad had been on CL for all of 15 minutes.

It gets worse: they added 50 new reviewers today to the gig, since they want to wrap it up quickly. The oversupply of attorneys is beyond obscene, yet you guys somehow seem to have great difficulty appreciating the iron laws of supply/demand. Outside biglaw there really is no legal "market", just hordes of temps and a tiny handful of kids who got lucky or had connections to get the mysterious and seldom-seen entry-level "midlaw."

Just curious, but could you answer these questions for us? What law school did you attend and what was your approximate rank?

[lawbanshee]

Just curious, but could you answer these questions for us? What law school did you attend and what was your approximate rank?

No problem: 2002 Brooklyn grad, top 1/3, secondary journal, dual NY/NJ admitted.

Things were not much better for grads from TTT's back in what you guys seem to think were the "glory days." Even then only about 15% or so of the class got proper NYC biglaw, which back then paid 125 K. Everyone else had a hell of a time finding work, including myself. I temped on doc review for about 6 months, then got hired as an associate in insurance defense (small firm) for 48 K starting. The work was boring and miserable, the partners were nasty, the hours weren't much better than Biglaw (8:30 to 7 or 7:30 every weekday + 2 saturdays a month). But the worst part is I simply could not make min. loan payments living in Bklyn on 48 K, even w/ roomates in a small walk-up apt.

So after about a year I left and went back into temping. Back then, most projects paid 35/hr to 45/hr plus time & a half, and hours were often almost unlimited. You could make 90 to 110 K doing this garbage, and get perks like $25 a day for meals, car service home after 9 pm, the works. Yes, it was/is boring, repetitive, dead-end work, but it paid decently and allowed you to pay your loans and live somewhat like a human. But now, that's all gone. Ever since the 2008 crash, rates have been stuck at $25 to $30 an hour flat (no OT pay regardless of if you work 40 hrs or 80 hrs), no car service, no meals, and VERY short gigs- like a week or two at most.

You can't really get by on it anymoe. But there's not much choice sicne law degrees are about the least versaltile credential there is.

[071816]

Areyouinsane?

[Antrim]

It's all good, Cooley is opening a new campus in Tampa. Cooley and the state of Florida- match made in heaven.

[Kendi]

So, law schools are being sued for manipulating their employment numbers. My guess is that schools will claim they are guilty of nothing, but will agree to implement a new reporting employment guideline. Question is, what would a perfect non-misleading guideline look like?

What would be a fair criteria to have these claims be non-misleading?

Percent of graduates employed 9 months after graduation: 99%.
Percent of graduates employed at graduation: 56%

[JusticeHarlan]

Areyouinsane?

Oh, he is.

[MrPapagiorgio]

Not the point. Fact of the matter is I wouldn't put too much credence in these suits. It's a bunch of butthurt graduates who should have known better, willfully chose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, were too lazy to work harder on the LSAT to get into a school worth attending, etc.

Although these are TTT schools, they still have the resources which include some truly brilliant legal minds. Hopefully the class' attorneys are doing this pro bono or on a contingent fee basis. Otherwise, a bunch of people in serious debt will only be in further debt.

Yes, the schools may be deceptive in their practices and may be guilty of false advertising. But they don't force you to attend these schools. Not that I am on the side of these TTToilets, but the writing has been on the wall for years. The law school scam is well known by now. Peruse this sight and you will find countless "3.1/153 What are my chances at Florida Coastal and am NOT retaking" threads. They all share the same arrogant thick-headed demeanor. Do I think it's morally/ethically wrong for these schools to deceive these students? Yes. But don't be mad because you disregarded all of the evidence that the schools were misleading applicants.

[beach_terror]

Not the point. Fact of the matter is I wouldn't put too much credence in these suits. It's a bunch of butthurt graduates who should have known better, willfully chose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, were too lazy to work harder on the LSAT to get into a school worth attending, etc.

So many poor assumptions in this. You also don't understand reliance.

[MTal]

Not the point. Fact of the matter is I wouldn't put too much credence in these suits. It's a bunch of butthurt graduates who should have known better, willfully chose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, were too lazy to work harder on the LSAT to get into a school worth attending, etc.

Although these are TTT schools, they still have the resources which include some truly brilliant legal minds. Hopefully the class' attorneys are doing this pro bono or on a contingent fee basis. Otherwise, a bunch of people in serious debt will only be in further debt.

Yes, the schools may be deceptive in their practices and may be guilty of false advertising. But they don't force you to attend these schools. Not that I am on the side of these TTToilets, but the writing has been on the wall for years. The law school scam is well known by now. Peruse this sight and you will find countless "3.1/153 What are my chances at Florida Coastal and am NOT retaking" threads. They all share the same arrogant thick-headed demeanor. Do I think it's morally/ethically wrong for these schools to deceive these students? Yes. But don't be mad because you disregarded all of the evidence that the schools were misleading applicants.

This entire post can be summed up as... "Yeah, law schools committed fraud. But also, they didn't".

[FeelTheHeat]

derp derp derp

Research or not, misrepresenting their shit like that does no good for the profession. I honestly fail to see how anyone could object to this...would anyone outside of the students that go there be upset if 50 schools were shut down? If the only ones in Florida were UF, FSU, UM, Stetson, and FIU (and even that might be too many)? The more attention that is brought to these things, the better off we all are.

[PDaddy]

--LinkRemoved--

If you are paying $$ for anything below the T14....you are getting SCREWED.

Edit: For some reason when you click on that link, it doesn't work, but if you copy it and paste it into your browser, it will take you directly to the LST website.

Might be getting screwed in the T14. Don't think those schools are beyond reproach. Even some Harvard law grads are getting the shaft. Fortunately for the elite schools, their long histories of prestige and placement success are more likely to warrant the benefit of the doubt in terms of students' expectations. Students go to elite schools because they know those schools have historically produced results, but that doesn't mean those schools haven't also lied to lure students away from their main competitors.

Anyone who thinks this isn't a widespread problem - i.e. 100+ schools with flagrant misrepresentations - is naiive.

However, there won't be a windfall of loan forgiveness and punitive damages for every law student. What the independent investigators will probably do is compile some complicated metrics extrapolating the likelihoods of students landing jobs. My guess is that only those unemployed students who were above 75th percentile at their respective schools will have valid claims. Even then, the settlement will not include full forgiveness, they could still be on the hook for 50% of their loan values. It appears to me that maybe the ABA and or USNWR should be named as a co-defendant(s) in these lawsuits. Maybe they will get the message then.

derp derp derp

Research or not, misrepresenting their shit like that does no good for the profession. I honestly fail to see how anyone could object to this...would anyone outside of the students that go there be upset if 50 schools were shut down? If the only ones in Florida were UF, FSU, UM, Stetson, and FIU (and even that might be too many)? The more attention that is brought to these things, the better off we all are.

Agreed. I want about 50 certain schools to close and about 20 new ones to open.

Wouldn't it be great if about 50 schools, including Cooley, Cal-Western, TJ, john Marshall, Texas Southern, and several others closed, while Princeton, MIT, Dartmouth, Brown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Cal-Tech, Carnegie Mellon, Rochester, GA. Tech, and Purdue opened law schools?

[3v3ryth1ng]

I think they should just close all but 100 or so law schools, but keep the seats and standards for admission to school about the same. Then voila!- fewer, but more highly-qualified attorneys filling the same amount of job positions. Everyone else can either study to get a higher LSAT, get some work experience and try again in 5 years, or give up and open a cell phone cover kiosk.

We can use all the old TTT law schools for theme park space, which Americans will undoubtedly need for their stay-cations.

[thelawyler]

Not the point. Fact of the matter is I wouldn't put too much credence in these suits. It's a bunch of butthurt graduates who should have known better, willfully chose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, were too lazy to work harder on the LSAT to get into a school worth attending, etc.

Although these are TTT schools, they still have the resources which include some truly brilliant legal minds. Hopefully the class' attorneys are doing this pro bono or on a contingent fee basis. Otherwise, a bunch of people in serious debt will only be in further debt.

Yes, the schools may be deceptive in their practices and may be guilty of false advertising. But they don't force you to attend these schools. Not that I am on the side of these TTToilets, but the writing has been on the wall for years. The law school scam is well known by now. Peruse this sight and you will find countless "3.1/153 What are my chances at Florida Coastal and am NOT retaking" threads. They all share the same arrogant thick-headed demeanor. Do I think it's morally/ethically wrong for these schools to deceive these students? Yes. But don't be mad because you disregarded all of the evidence that the schools were misleading applicants.

And I guess we should let Ponzi schemes happen because people should be smart enough to see through them, right?

It is the government's responsibility to protect its citizens from misleading and possible fraudulent behavior that will put them in dire circumstances. Law schools unfortunately have probably crossed that fuzzy line a while ago.

[Magnificent]

I think there is alot of cognitive dissonance in this thread. Everyone getting mad at lawbanshee and Mtal just need to finally accept reality. Expect for a few graduates each year from the most elite law schools, the rest of this game is a scam. Don't think your the special little snowflake that will somehow escape the fire that is the current economy.

I'm confused by the venom being directed at these guys for describing REALITY to you guys. Anyone who chooses to believe that things aren't as bad as they are is fooling themselves.

[dba415]

I am glad that we have the pessimistic (maybe realistic) posters on here that will tell people here straight up, that law school is not a good investment decision.

I get a sense that many people here are well aware of the state of the job market but simply gloss over it for various reasons. That is better however than people who are not on TLS (obviously if you are on TLS, then you have done your research about law school) who are blindly going to law school.

In my LSAT course, for example, I get a sense that many people there are unaware of the porous state of affairs for the law industry, my instructor knows it, and I know it, but I doubt my classmates know it. It's become sort of taboo to talk about employment opportunities, those test prep companies want to make money so why would they discourage anyone from going to law school?

On my end, I am aiming for t14 and even then I am not sure if I will attend. My classmates though who have their sights set lower? I almost feel guilty that I am not telling them don't go to law school, even though in my head I think it.

[PDaddy]

Not the point. Fact of the matter is I wouldn't put too much credence in these suits. It's a bunch of butthurt graduates who should have known better, willfully chose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, were too lazy to work harder on the LSAT to get into a school worth attending, etc.

Although these are TTT schools, they still have the resources which include some truly brilliant legal minds. Hopefully the class' attorneys are doing this pro bono or on a contingent fee basis. Otherwise, a bunch of people in serious debt will only be in further debt.

Yes, the schools may be deceptive in their practices and may be guilty of false advertising. But they don't force you to attend these schools. Not that I am on the side of these TTToilets, but the writing has been on the wall for years. The law school scam is well known by now. Peruse this sight and you will find countless "3.1/153 What are my chances at Florida Coastal and am NOT retaking" threads. They all share the same arrogant thick-headed demeanor. Do I think it's morally/ethically wrong for these schools to deceive these students? Yes. But don't be mad because you disregarded all of the evidence that the schools were misleading applicants.

The logic here is a fail. If Campbell's soup falsely advertises or makes the public sick, it gives rise to a products liability or torts claim. Nobody is forcing you to buy it, but the buyer has a reasonable expectation of the reliability of the product/service. As professional schools, law schools are inherently commissioned to provide good employment opportunities to their students and represent those opportunities fairly and honestly to applicants to begin with.

Clearly the administrators understand this concept and validate it by touting their phony employment statistics. Hence, they can't play dumb about it and argue that their only job is to provide a legal education.

Furthermore, there are some reputable names on that list, including Brooklyn, Chicago-Kent, San francisco, DePaul, and Hofstra. They are well-regarded law schools that just happen to suck when it comes to providing jobs these days but lie about it or lie about their medians to maintain their rankings.