My observation about the people on this board Forum

[whymeohgodno]

And? Our whole country is a debt slave.

Edit: Also, top 100 wouldn't be TTT grads. T/TT grads. There is a difference between Cooley and DePaul yaknow.

You don't address the question but instead reply with an inaccurate blanket statement. Great. I'm dealing with someone who might be illiterate.

Graduate school loan debt is flexible due to programs such as IBR which allow the payments to shift with your income. You will be stuck paying off for years, I haven't denied that. I also haven't denied that a lot of people will be screwed. The odds are against T30-100 grads who graduate with 100-200k in debt. It is a livable screwing though and some of them will succeed in the short term, and many more will succeed at something in the long term. And some will die in the poor house. It's a known risk.

You call that flexibility? A 10 year repayment plan as your only option of paying off debt is flexibility?

[geoduck]

Sure, we can keep interpreting his statement in different ways; in some of the interpretations, I agree. I just think, given the context of the post, it could easily be misleading for some ppl on TLS (and clearly it is with all these varying interpretations).

I mean, if his statement was, work your hardest at what you love and it'll work out in some fashion or another at some later point of your life....then yeah i guess thats a decently fair statement...

That's the way I interpreted it and I'm pretty sure that is the way it was meant, especially since he isn't working as a lawyer now. If someone interprets it to say that going to Santa Clara for sticker and working really hard guarantees that you'll eventually be partner then no. That is retarded.

[geoduck]

And? Our whole country is a debt slave.

Edit: Also, top 100 wouldn't be TTT grads. T/TT grads. There is a difference between Cooley and DePaul yaknow.

You don't address the question but instead reply with an inaccurate blanket statement. Great. I'm dealing with someone who might be illiterate.

Graduate school loan debt is flexible due to programs such as IBR which allow the payments to shift with your income. You will be stuck paying off for years, I haven't denied that. I also haven't denied that a lot of people will be screwed. The odds are against T30-100 grads who graduate with 100-200k in debt. It is a livable screwing though and some of them will succeed in the short term, and many more will succeed at something in the long term. And some will die in the poor house. It's a known risk.

You call that flexibility? A 10 year repayment plan as your only option of paying off debt is flexibility?

IBR is a 25 year payment plan.

[firemed]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

I always love when succesful people talk to others if it is just that easy to become succesful.

Kiddos, just be resilient and you can all make it into the top .5% of the income spectrum too.

THANK YOU!

Seriously.... the number of people who do what this poster did is less than .01% of the people who set out to do it. At least tigerdad had the honesty to admit that randomness and luck played a part.

I hear what you are saying, tigerdad, and I think it is important for us to keep morale high by encouraging others. But at the same time we also have to be realistic. Someone graduating from bottom third from a school ranked in the 70s-100s just isn't going to make it unless they are very lucky... at least ITE.

[DoubleChecks]

Sure, we can keep interpreting his statement in different ways; in some of the interpretations, I agree. I just think, given the context of the post, it could easily be misleading for some ppl on TLS (and clearly it is with all these varying interpretations).

I mean, if his statement was, work your hardest at what you love and it'll work out in some fashion or another at some later point of your life....then yeah i guess thats a decently fair statement...

That's the way I interpreted it and I'm pretty sure that is the way it was meant, especially since he isn't working as a lawyer now. If someone interprets it to say that going to Santa Clara for sticker and working really hard guarantees that you'll eventually be partner then no. That is retarded.

lol YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED and +1 to the post above me

[kwais]

Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.

Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

uh not to take you guys off track from your already off track trajectory, lol but do kwais and supporters actually believe when Tiger Dad said "everything will work out" he meant family, personal satisfication, etc.? I mean, maybe he did, and i personally define that as a big part of working out, but if that IS what he meant, he went about it in a very disingenuous way. He preceded "everything will work out" with a story about how he was unemployed in his 20s, made some bad decisions, and is now making over $1M a yr as a Fortune 200 exec (granted in a job he loves, but ppl tend to love jobs they are good at). Seriously?

His story is nice, and they happen, but I have to agree with Patriot almost on every post he's made in this thread. For most people, things do NOT work out when you make bad decisions. Sometimes they still do, but they tend not to -- isn't that basic human logic? Even if you love doing law, most ppl on TLS are not old enough to actually know if they will love the law (just the idea of it) OR love it enough in the face of harsh realities.

I'm not saying tiger dad's post was bad -- it's inspirational, that's nice -- but i personally would recommend keeping it in perspective. People will end up misinterpreting his msg as "oh let me just do what i think i love now and it will all work out [followed by bad decision]" because PEOPLE MAKE BAD DECISIONS, esp. in their 20s. And for most it will not work out; hell, what you love will probably change in a few years.

The mentality just rubs against me because it goes against how i've lived my life -- I challenge myself but i dont think i can do everything. It works for me; the other mentality of "shoot for the stars" is nice too, and some need to have it so we can have the Bill Gates or whatever of the world, but the cold fact is most people like that will not succeed. I could easily match tiger dad's anecdote with 10 or more anecdotes of ppl who made bad decisions in their 20s and it did NOT work out (in any way, shape or form).

I essentially agree with you here. I probably read Tiger Dad and injected some of my own sentiment. I guess when I hear the constant stream of "TTT grads are screwed" I hope that we are talking purely in a legal profession standpoint. There are Cooley grads that are infinitely happier than many working at Wachtell. Also, I never expected to be rich or to have jobs handed to me, so when I hear that a school's 58% job placement rate is "atrocious", part of me still asks "really? So 42% of grads have to hustle to find employment and pay off loans? That sounds reasonable considering that life is tough, competitive and random".
My defense of Tiger Dad was not an endorsement of TTTs, just a tangent building from other threads

[DoubleChecks]

I essentially agree with you here. I probably read Tiger Dad and injected some of my own sentiment. I guess when I hear the constant stream of "TTT grads are screwed" I hope that we are talking purely in a legal profession standpoint. There are Cooley grads that are infinitely happier than many working at Wachtell. Also, I never expected to be rich or to have jobs handed to me, so when I hear that a school's 58% job placement rate is "atrocious", part of me still asks "really? So 42% of grads have to hustle to find employment and pay off loans? That sounds reasonable considering that life is tough, competitive and random".
My defense of Tiger Dad was not an endorsement of TTTs, just a tangent building from other threads

Right, and I have an inkling suspicion that the people still posting in this thread would actually all agree on the same thing; we're just interpreting things a bit differently.

[geoduck]

I essentially agree with you here. I probably read Tiger Dad and injected some of my own sentiment. I guess when I hear the constant stream of "TTT grads are screwed" I hope that we are talking purely in a legal profession standpoint. There are Cooley grads that are infinitely happier than many working at Wachtell. Also, I never expected to be rich or to have jobs handed to me, so when I hear that a school's 58% job placement rate is "atrocious", part of me still asks "really? So 42% of grads have to hustle to find employment and pay off loans? That sounds reasonable considering that life is tough, competitive and random".
My defense of Tiger Dad was not an endorsement of TTTs, just a tangent building from other threads

Right, and I have an inkling suspicion that the people still posting in this thread would actually all agree on the same thing; we're just interpreting things a bit differently.

I'm in the same boat. Though it is important to note that he never supported Tier3-4, just Tier 1-2. I think TTTTs are complete scams, and the only tier 3s that aren't are the ones supporting locales that have no good schools nearby.

[geoduck]

He also didn't say it would always work out in a legal career. Someone truly hardworking and resilient will find a niche somewhere. Sadly, we don't always find out who is "truly" until the end of the game.

And this is where my problem with "working out in the end" comes. This person would have been better off had they not gone to law school at all. My point was that law school should either make you money or get you a career that you desire (e.g. being a lawyer). Since law school is doing neither of those for someone who graduates and doesn't become a lawyer (e.g. the hardworking/resilient person in your example), then why go? To me that isn't really "working out in the end" because not going at all would have put that person in a much better position than going to law school did.

That could very well be the case, but life is very random. Maybe the person meets his/her future spouse at law school? Maybe a connection is made that pays out ten years down the road. Maybe he/she follows in the footsteps of other tier 2 grads who can't even pass the bar the first two times like Richard Daley and develops a successful political career. It's impossible for us to say.

[Stringer Bell]

IBR is a 25 year payment plan.

If you can wrangle a job cleaning toilets at the DMV then it's 10 years.

[geoduck]

IBR is a 25 year payment plan.

If you can wrangle a job cleaning toilets at the DMV then it's 10 years.

True with forgiveness. That "public service" out is kind of ridiculously broad. And you don't have to worry about taking a payment plan from the IRS for the forgiveness taxes.

[bk1]

That could very well be the case, but life is very random. Maybe the person meets his/her future spouse at law school? Maybe a connection is made that pays out ten years down the road. Maybe he/she follows in the footsteps of other tier 2 grads who can't even pass the bar the first two times like Richard Daley and develops a successful political career. It's impossible for us to say.

However it is possible for us to say that those kinds of situations are highly unlikely and thus one shouldn't go to these kinds of schools especially when it costs lots of money.

[DoubleChecks]

He also didn't say it would always work out in a legal career. Someone truly hardworking and resilient will find a niche somewhere. Sadly, we don't always find out who is "truly" until the end of the game.

And this is where my problem with "working out in the end" comes. This person would have been better off had they not gone to law school at all. My point was that law school should either make you money or get you a career that you desire (e.g. being a lawyer). Since law school is doing neither of those for someone who graduates and doesn't become a lawyer (e.g. the hardworking/resilient person in your example), then why go? To me that isn't really "working out in the end" because not going at all would have put that person in a much better position than going to law school did.

That could very well be the case, but life is very random. Maybe the person meets his/her future spouse at law school? Maybe a connection is made that pays out ten years down the road. Maybe he/she follows in the footsteps of other tier 2 grads who can't even pass the bar the first two times like Richard Daley and develops a successful political career. It's impossible for us to say.

Aw that's not a fair line of logic to go on. I could counter, maybe with the money he saved he would have invested in Google or Apple, or instead of going to law school, he spent his time working for a company that is now a Fortune 100 company that he enjoys even more, or that he did NOT meet his first divorced wife at law school but instead met his current wife and they have three beautiful children together lol. Of course it is impossible to say, we can only speak in probabilities or generalities. I think it still stands, if bk's comment is accepted as true that going to law school was not the best option for him, that generally he may have been better off (assuming he did not even end up practicing in the legal field or was picked up directly because of some legal experience).

[geoduck]

That could very well be the case, but life is very random. Maybe the person meets his/her future spouse at law school? Maybe a connection is made that pays out ten years down the road. Maybe he/she follows in the footsteps of other tier 2 grads who can't even pass the bar the first two times like Richard Daley and develops a successful political career. It's impossible for us to say.

However it is possible for us to say that those kinds of situations are highly unlikely and thus one shouldn't go to these kinds of schools especially when it costs lots of money.

Yeah. The odds are against it. We do get a bit hyperbolic on here about how screwed non T-30 (or T-14 to some) grads are. Anyone in the T-100 has a chance, but the odds fall quick.

We're probably not even vicious enough about Tier 3-4 though

[bk1]

Yeah. The odds are against it. We do get a bit hyperbolic on here about how screwed non T-30 (or T-14 to some) grads are. Anyone in the T-100 has a chance, but the odds fall quick.

We're probably not even vicious enough about Tier 3-4 though

I dunno. When you have a 50/50 shot of full time legal employment (which is true at a chunk of the T2, if not far worse for the really shitty schools like SCU and USF), things seem pretty bad to me. I think the point is more that not all T2's are created equal (same goes for T1/T3/T4).

[geoduck]

Aw that's not a fair line of logic to go on. I could counter, maybe with the money he saved he would have invested in Google or Apple, or instead of going to law school, he spent his time working for a company that is now a Fortune 100 company that he enjoys even more, or that he did NOT meet his first divorced wife at law school but instead met his current wife and they have three beautiful children together lol. Of course it is impossible to say, we can only speak in probabilities or generalities. I think it still stands, if bk's comment is accepted as true that going to law school was not the best option for him, that generally he may have been better off (assuming he did not even end up practicing in the legal field or was picked up directly because of some legal experience).

I think we can agree that if someone thinks paying sticker at St. Johns is an awesome idea, they probably wouldn't be making the most awesome investments. Plus, he'd never get approved for a government loan to gamble on the stock market. And yeah, he may have been better off. It's impossible for us to know. But you all are right that the odds are not favorable. It's handy that math isn't the strong suit of most Americans.

[geoduck]

Yeah. The odds are against it. We do get a bit hyperbolic on here about how screwed non T-30 (or T-14 to some) grads are. Anyone in the T-100 has a chance, but the odds fall quick.

We're probably not even vicious enough about Tier 3-4 though

I dunno. When you have a 50/50 shot of full time legal employment (which is true at a chunk of the T2, if not far worse for the really shitty schools like SCU and USF), things seem pretty bad to me. I think the point is more that not all T2's are created equal (same goes for T1/T3/T4).

50% is more than enough for some. Now the problem is that those odds aren't always clear off the top. If someone goes in to a tier 2 thinking he's guaranteed a job, then that is a problem. 50-50 odds are still better than, say, Cooley. I think only around 50% even graduate thanks to culling and scholarship loss.

[firemed]

ITT a lot of people with no real idea of what it is like to pay student loans that are unbelievably high despite IBR argue about whether or not an optimistic dude (who had things work out for him, unlike 99.5% of his peers) is right or wrong. Let me tell you something: I owe about $40k. I make about $50K. My payments are two hundred and some change a month. After I pay taxes, health insurance, car payment, car insurance, mortgage, phones, and utilities... well, that $200 a month hurts. That is a couple nice dates, or two weeks of groceries, or 4 tanks of gas at current prices. That isn't to be scoffed at. When I double that to $80K in loans (assuming I make the same) I will be paying about $400 a month. That is more than my car payment. It isn't negligible amounts we are talking about. While there is an upper limit on your monthly payment based on income... it isn't as low as I would like it to be, that is for sure. All I am saying is that this is srs bsns.

Guys... seriously... be optimistic about your futures. Do what tigerdad suggests- go to a T1/T2 and work your ass off. Be open to the possibilities that life will offer you, even if they aren't legal, and make the best of them.

But my advice would be: Don't put it all on black and hope for the best. There is a difference between optimism and stupidity. And know that even if you are playing blackjack the house always wins against stupid people. Just be smart, don't let your optimism overwhelm you and stay realistic.

[glitter178]

ITT a lot of people with no real idea of what it is like to pay student loans that are unbelievably high despite IBR argue about whether or not an optimistic dude (who had things work out for him, unlike 99.5% of his peers) is right or wrong. Let me tell you something: I owe about $40k. I make about $50K. My payments are two hundred and some change a month. After I pay taxes, health insurance, car payment, car insurance, mortgage, phones, and utilities... well, that $200 a month hurts. That is a couple nice dates, or two weeks of groceries, or 4 tanks of gas at current prices. That isn't to be scoffed at. When I double that to $80K in loans (assuming I make the same) I will be paying about $400 a month. That is more than my car payment. It isn't negligible amounts we are talking about. While there is an upper limit on your monthly payment based on income... it isn't as low as I would like it to be, that is for sure. All I am saying is that this is srs bsns.

Guys... seriously... be optimistic about your futures. Do what tigerdad suggests- go to a T1/T2 and work your ass off. Be open to the possibilities that life will offer you, even if they aren't legal, and make the best of them.

But my advice would be: Don't put it all on black and hope for the best. There is a difference between optimism and stupidity. And know that even if you are playing blackjack the house always wins against stupid people. Just be smart, don't let your optimism overwhelm you and stay realistic.

this is terrible advice.

[aliarrow]

ITT a lot of people with no real idea of what it is like to pay student loans that are unbelievably high despite IBR argue about whether or not an optimistic dude (who had things work out for him, unlike 99.5% of his peers) is right or wrong. Let me tell you something: I owe about $40k. I make about $50K. My payments are two hundred and some change a month. After I pay taxes, health insurance, car payment, car insurance, mortgage, phones, and utilities... well, that $200 a month hurts. That is a couple nice dates, or two weeks of groceries, or 4 tanks of gas at current prices. That isn't to be scoffed at. When I double that to $80K in loans (assuming I make the same) I will be paying about $400 a month. That is more than my car payment. It isn't negligible amounts we are talking about. While there is an upper limit on your monthly payment based on income... it isn't as low as I would like it to be, that is for sure. All I am saying is that this is srs bsns.

Guys... seriously... be optimistic about your futures. Do what tigerdad suggests- go to a T1/T2 and work your ass off. Be open to the possibilities that life will offer you, even if they aren't legal, and make the best of them.

But my advice would be: Don't put it all on black and hope for the best. There is a difference between optimism and stupidity. And know that even if you are playing blackjack the house always wins against stupid people. Just be smart, don't let your optimism overwhelm you and stay realistic.

To offer a counter anecdote, I pay $270 a month on credit cards (my equivalent of student loans since I didn't rack up any during UG) and make $25k, it sucks but no biggie. I've been poor forever, this is actually a comfortable amount of money for me.

[Patriot1208]

Don't put it all on black and hope for the best.

Clearly, because you always put it on red.

[firemed]

this is terrible advice.

Because?

To offer a counter anecdote, I pay $270 a month on credit cards (my equivalent of student loans since I didn't rack up any during UG) and make $25k, it sucks but no biggie. I've been poor forever, this is actually a comfortable amount of money for me.

Do you have: kids? mortgage? want a bigger apartment/house (without roommates)? desire to have new furniture? a new TV? Great health insurance? Anything like that?

Because when you do you might find your opinion of paying that every month might change.


I used to not mind paying debt until suddenly I had to pay for my kid's food, my kid's child care, dates with my wife, full insurance on two cars instead of one, a house big enough for the family... etc etc etc.

[bk1]

50% is more than enough for some. Now the problem is that those odds aren't always clear off the top. If someone goes in to a tier 2 thinking he's guaranteed a job, then that is a problem. 50-50 odds are still better than, say, Cooley. I think only around 50% even graduate thanks to culling and scholarship loss.

I was about to say 50% is bad but then I thought of it like this, is there really any difference between:

Taking out 200k+ to go to a lower T14 and hoping for biglaw to repay it
-or-
Taking out 0 (full tuition + stipend from the school with no stips) to go to a school where only half the grads get full time legal employment

[aliarrow]

To offer a counter anecdote, I pay $270 a month on credit cards (my equivalent of student loans since I didn't rack up any during UG) and make $25k, it sucks but no biggie. I've been poor forever, this is actually a comfortable amount of money for me.

Do you have: kids? mortgage? want a bigger apartment/house (without roommates)? desire to have new furniture? a new TV? Great health insurance? Anything like that?

Because when you do you might find your opinion of paying that every month might change.


I used to not mind paying debt until suddenly I had to pay for my kid's food, my kid's child care, dates with my wife, full insurance on two cars instead of one, a house big enough for the family... etc etc etc.

I don't really have a desire to have those things anywhere in the near future, they all seem too expensive. What you describe sounds like a dream

[romothesavior]

To offer a counter anecdote, I pay $270 a month on credit cards (my equivalent of student loans since I didn't rack up any during UG) and make $25k, it sucks but no biggie. I've been poor forever, this is actually a comfortable amount of money for me.

Do you have: kids? mortgage? want a bigger apartment/house (without roommates)? desire to have new furniture? a new TV? Great health insurance? Anything like that?

Because when you do you might find your opinion of paying that every month might change.


I used to not mind paying debt until suddenly I had to pay for my kid's food, my kid's child care, dates with my wife, full insurance on two cars instead of one, a house big enough for the family... etc etc etc.

I don't really have a desire to have those things anywhere in the near future, they all seem too expensive. What you describe sounds like a dream

lol

You can't live like a college kid forever.