Three TSL Myths Forum

LawSchoolMyths · Post by **LawSchoolMyths** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:00 pm

1. You should "retake" and/or wait until next cycle

The LSAT measures aptitude. Most people will improve to a certain score and it is unlikely they will get any higher. You should take the LSAT twice, at most three times. If you got about what you are scoring on your practice test, you probably won’t do any better. Meanwhile while you are studying and "waiting until next cycle" I am already done with my first year of law school.

3. You will be able to work hard and be in the Top 10% of the class to transfer to a higher ranked school/get the best jobs.

9 out of 10 times, this isn’t going to happen (obviously). The best indicator of the likelihood of this happening is where you are GPA/LSAT wise in the entering class (more so GPA). Believe it or not, law schools use GPA/LSAT scores for a reason – and did so even before USNWR. COMBINED they are the best indicator of how an applicant will do once in law school. If you are not already in the top 10% coming in, class the chances of something changing is unlikely.

3. If you do not go to a T14 School you will not get a job and law school is a waste of time and money.

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. If you are going for any other reason, it will be a tough three years. Yes, the top law schools will get the best jobs as a whole, but even most of the students from the proverbial TTT schools will get jobs. If you are a good lawyer and work hard, you will be ok. If you are not happy working as a lawyer at 60K a year, you will not be happy working as a lawyer making 120K a year.

071816 · Post by **071816** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:03 pm

ns77770 · Post by **ns77770** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:04 pm

This is going to end well.

dextermorgan · Post by **dextermorgan** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:08 pm

Kohinoor · Post by **Kohinoor** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:09 pm

LawSchoolMyths wrote:1. You should "retake" and/or wait until next cycle

The LSAT measures aptitude. Most people will improve to a certain score and it is unlikely they will get any higher. You should take the LSAT twice, at most three times. If you got about what you are scoring on your practice test, you probably won’t do any better. Meanwhile while you are studying and "waiting until next cycle" I am already done with my first year of law school.

3. You will be able to work hard and be in the Top 10% of the class to transfer to a higher ranked school/get the best jobs.

9 out of 10 times, this isn’t going to happen (obviously). The best indicator of the likelihood of this happening is where you are GPA/LSAT wise in the entering class (more so GPA). Believe it or not, law schools use GPA/LSAT scores for a reason – and did so even before USNWR. COMBINED they are the best indicator of how an applicant will do once in law school. If you are not already in the top 10% coming in, class the chances of something changing is unlikely.

3. If you do not go to a T14 School you will not get a job and law school is a waste of time and money.

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. If you are going for any other reason, it will be a tough three years. Yes, the top law schools will get the best jobs as a whole, but even most of the students from the proverbial TTT schools will get jobs. If you are a good lawyer and work hard, you will be ok. If you are not happy working as a lawyer at 60K a year, you will not be happy working as a lawyer making 120K a year.

nealric · Post by **nealric** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:09 pm

1. You should "retake" and/or wait until next cycle

The LSAT measures aptitude. Most people will improve to a certain score and it is unlikely they will get any higher. You should take the LSAT twice, at most three times. If you got about what you are scoring on your practice test, you probably won’t do any better. Meanwhile while you are studying and "waiting until next cycle" I am already done with my first year of law school.

3. You will be able to work hard and be in the Top 10% of the class to transfer to a higher ranked school/get the best jobs.

9 out of 10 times, this isn’t going to happen (obviously). The best indicator of the likelihood of this happening is where you are GPA/LSAT wise in the entering class (more so GPA). Believe it or not, law schools use GPA/LSAT scores for a reason – and did so even before USNWR. COMBINED they are the best indicator of how an applicant will do once in law school. If you are not already in the top 10% coming in, class the chances of something changing is unlikely.

3. If you do not go to a T14 School you will not get a job and law school is a waste of time and money.

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. If you are going for any other reason, it will be a tough three years. Yes, the top law schools will get the best jobs as a whole, but even most of the students from the proverbial TTT schools will get jobs. If you are a good lawyer and work hard, you will be ok. If you are not happy working as a lawyer at 60K a year, you will not be happy working as a lawyer making 120K a year.

1. Even a few points can work wonders. Our point is not necessarily that you will get a higher score, it's usually that it's not worth going UNLESS you get one.

2. Is not a TLS myth. Everyone agrees with that point.

3. Is not a TLS myth. The TLS advice is that you shouldn't take out $200k+ in loans except at a T14 school.

Thanks for playing.

Renzo · Post by **Renzo** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:10 pm

LawSchoolMyths wrote:
3. If you do not go to a T14 School you will not get a job and law school is a waste of time and money.

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. If you are going for any other reason, it will be a tough three years. Yes, the top law schools will get the best jobs as a whole, but even most of the students from the proverbial TTT schools will get jobs. If you are a good lawyer and work hard, you will be ok. If you are not happy working as a lawyer at 60K a year, you will not be happy working as a lawyer making 120K a year.

You forgot #2

2. There are enough legal jobs around that most TTT grads can make $60k a year right out of school. All those Craigslist postings for $12/hr temporary lawyers are just one big practical joke.

Edit: dammit. I was beat to the punchline.

dc1s · Post by **dc1s** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:11 pm

I agree with point 3, but not point 3.

SMA22 · Post by **SMA22** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:12 pm

ns77770 wrote:This is going to end well.

ptblazer · Post by **ptblazer** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:15 pm

LawSchoolMyths wrote: The best indicator of the likelihood of this happening is where you are GPA/LSAT wise in the entering class (more so GPA). Believe it or not, law schools use GPA/LSAT scores for a reason – and did so even before USNWR. COMBINED they are the best indicator of how an applicant will do once in law school.

I agree with certain things you've said, however...

Its true that LSAT and GPA combined are the BEST indicators law schools have, but it doesn't mean they are a good indicator. It varies from school to school but the correlation is considered a weak to moderate one.

dc1s · Post by **dc1s** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:19 pm

ptblazer wrote:
LawSchoolMyths wrote: The best indicator of the likelihood of this happening is where you are GPA/LSAT wise in the entering class (more so GPA). Believe it or not, law schools use GPA/LSAT scores for a reason – and did so even before USNWR. COMBINED they are the best indicator of how an applicant will do once in law school.
I agree with certain things you've said, however...

Its true that LSAT and GPA combined are the BEST indicators law schools have, but it doesn't mean they are a good indicator. It varies from school to school but the correlation is considered a weak to moderate one.

Evidence? This seems like something that would be difficult to quantify (unless you are an adcom), if only because grades and LSAT scores are not readily available in a scale that would be representative.

AntipodeanPhil · Post by **AntipodeanPhil** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:20 pm

LawSchoolMyths wrote:1. You should "retake" and/or wait until next cycle.

Yeah, I've seen that A LOT here recently. I bet there are people who follow that advice and then do no better, or only a very little better, because they've already reached their peak. And getting into a school 3 or 4 spots higher in T3 or even T2 isn't worth a year off, imho (unless the offer comes with $$$, which it only will in a few cases).

LawSchoolMyths wrote:2. You will be able to work hard and be in the Top 10% of the class to transfer to a higher ranked school/get the best jobs.

Nobody sensible here believes that - only a small minority, and only about themselves.

LawSchoolMyths wrote:3. If you do not go to a T14 School you will not get a job and law school is a waste of time and money.

That's an exageration. Sensible people here say UNLIKELY. Still, I think even the exageration is better than the naive and uninformed view that law degree = $$$.

buckilaw · Post by **buckilaw** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:21 pm

LawSchoolMyths wrote:1. You should "retake" and/or wait until next cycle

The LSAT measures aptitude. Most people will improve to a certain score and it is unlikely they will get any higher. You should take the LSAT twice, at most three times. If you got about what you are scoring on your practice test, you probably won’t do any better. Meanwhile while you are studying and "waiting until next cycle" I am already done with my first year of law school.

3. You will be able to work hard and be in the Top 10% of the class to transfer to a higher ranked school/get the best jobs.

9 out of 10 times, this isn’t going to happen (obviously). The best indicator of the likelihood of this happening is where you are GPA/LSAT wise in the entering class (more so GPA). Believe it or not, law schools use GPA/LSAT scores for a reason – and did so even before USNWR. COMBINED they are the best indicator of how an applicant will do once in law school. If you are not already in the top 10% coming in, class the chances of something changing is unlikely.

3. If you do not go to a T14 School you will not get a job and law school is a waste of time and money.

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. If you are going for any other reason, it will be a tough three years. Yes, the top law schools will get the best jobs as a whole, but even most of the students from the proverbial TTT schools will get jobs. If you are a good lawyer and work hard, you will be ok. If you are not happy working as a lawyer at 60K a year, you will not be happy working as a lawyer making 120K a year.

1. Alot of applicants take the LSAT without sufficient prep and score below their actual "aptitude". What's more, even a superficial difference on the test, 1-3 points, can make a world of difference.

2.This is not a "TSL" myth, nor for that matter is it a TLS myth.

3. Sometimes T-14 at sticker will make sense. More often than not attending a regional school with a large scholarship is the way to go. TLS sentiment in regard to schools is largely directed against attending a TTT or TTTT school at sticker.

I'm guessing that you were set on attending a TTTT at sticker, posted on here to ask which TTTT to attend, was told to retake, refused, and you made an alt to post this rubbish. Let us know how you feel after OCI; assuming your TTTT has any law firms that interview on campus.

LawSchoolMyths · Post by **LawSchoolMyths** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:22 pm

My point with GPA is mainly that the best indicator of the future is the past. GPA takes into account your study habits, how quickly you can learn, how hard you wortk etc. Sometimes someone who has had a low GPA in undergrad can get a high one in LS and vice versa, but usually the factors I mentioned stay the same and therefore GPA does as well.

98234872348 · Post by **98234872348** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:23 pm

buckilaw · Post by **buckilaw** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:25 pm

mistergoft wrote:OP I think you meant to flame this site.

Well played.

ptblazer · Post by **ptblazer** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:27 pm

dc1s wrote:
ptblazer wrote:
LawSchoolMyths wrote: The best indicator of the likelihood of this happening is where you are GPA/LSAT wise in the entering class (more so GPA). Believe it or not, law schools use GPA/LSAT scores for a reason – and did so even before USNWR. COMBINED they are the best indicator of how an applicant will do once in law school.
I agree with certain things you've said, however...

Its true that LSAT and GPA combined are the BEST indicators law schools have, but it doesn't mean they are a good indicator. It varies from school to school but the correlation is considered a weak to moderate one.
Evidence? This seems like something that would be difficult to quantify (unless you are an adcom), if only because grades and LSAT scores are not readily available in a scale that would be representative.

Sorry, I was having trouble finding the study, but I have it now. (3rd paragraph)

http://www.lsac.org/jd/pdfs/LSAT-Score- ... rmance.pdf

In case you aren't familiar; a correlation coefficient of 1 is a "perfect fit" and value of 0.0 is considered to have "no relationship." Classifying between 0.0 and 1 is kinda fuzzy and depends on your field of study.

Sandro · Post by **Sandro** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:29 pm

1. Sucks so much. Not only is it relatively easy to raise your score with hard work, but who the hell wants to jump into the legal job market one year sooner? Ill take my CO 2014 and its probably better job %s than 2013, assuming Donald Trump doesnt get elected.

LawSchoolMyths · Post by **LawSchoolMyths** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:30 pm

Buckilaw: Nice guess but no - I dont think you would need need to retake to get into a TTTT school. I think you could guess on the LSAT and get in most of them.

though about 70% of the advice I have seen give in TLS has been "retake,"

AntipodeanPhil · Post by **AntipodeanPhil** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:35 pm

LawSchoolMyths wrote:Buckilaw: Nice guess but no - I dont think you would need need to retake to get into a TTTT school. I think you could guess on the LSAT and get in most of them.

though about 70% of the advice I have seen give in TLS has been "retake,"

LOL. I have wondered about how one could intentionally get a sub 150 without just guessing most of them.

Yeah, the advice should be "retake, if you have good reason to believe your score will improve" - i.e., if you didn't study enough last time, or something went horribly wrong. Not just "RETAKE" - which is all some people write.

LawSchoolMyths · Post by **LawSchoolMyths** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:37 pm

pt Blazer - This study is refering to the LSAT and is giving R squared values for the relationship btween LSAT and LS peformance. To quote the study:

"Moreover a combination of students' [LSAT] scores and undergraduate grade point averages(GPAs) gives a better prediction than either the LSAT or the GPA alone."

Meerkat Manor · Post by **Meerkat Manor** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:38 pm

cool brah, story

thecilent · Post by **thecilent** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:47 pm

Wtf are you talking about.

And as far as your first #3 you couldn't be more wrong. Have you ever even spent time on this site? Idiot

javancho · Post by **javancho** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:52 pm

LawSchoolMyths wrote:pt Blazer - This study is refering to the LSAT and is giving R squared values for the relationship btween LSAT and LS peformance. To quote the study:

"Moreover a combination of students' [LSAT] scores and undergraduate grade point averages(GPAs) gives a better prediction than either the LSAT or the GPA alone."

LawSchoolMyths: According to LSAC, "Correlations between LSAT scores and first-year law school grades ranged from .00
to .56 (median is .35). Correlations between LSAT scores
combined with undergraduate grade-point averages and
first-year law school grades ranged from .25 to .62
(median is .47)."

These are very poor correlations (0.35 and 0.47) if you apply them to any individuals. Even for a large cohort, this level of correlation is not that significant.

And yes, the LSAT is the BEST indicator for law school, but compared to what? What other test is there? Maybe if adcoms grade PS a tighter correlation would emerge.

rose711 · Post by **rose711** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:54 pm

How can OP make a post refuting TLS myths and not even get the myths right?

Although, maybe there are (speaking broadly) two sets of "myths" on TLS -

The first set - those that believe you need every point you can get on the LSAT and should study like a mad person for it; that you can't predict where you will end up in your class so you should not take scholarships with stipulations and you should not count on being top 10% or 25%; that you should be extremely careful about taking on debt and should have some idea on how you will repay it before you sign the (electronic) dotted line to borrow.

A submyth of the first set is that 6 figure debt can be justified if you position yourself for a biglaw career or PI career that your school will help you repay; and if you find yourself in a position of not getting either of those, then continuing to take on debt you can't repay is probably a foolish choice. Often the first set is working with incomplete data as the market has been unpredictable ITE and after.

The second set - those that claim their LSAT score is their best and are staying with that score (can't face the test again, have to go this year, etc.); that if you go to a school based on where your LSAT or GPA puts you toward the top rank of students, your classmates will not be as smart, talented, or driven as you and you will do extremely well; that you just have to believe in yourself and your dreams no matter how many reality checks about poor schools and debt you are given and that your drive and desire (or even just having the Esq after your name) will get you into a great career with your debt repaid.

A submyth of the second set is that one anecdote of someone being successful from your school means that you can be as successful. Often the second set is working with data or advisors from 20 years ago.

I think the first set and second set have many conversations on these forums but rarely communicate.

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